Libertarianism sucks.

[Coincomm]

People do not like libertarianism because it makes their lives harder. It does not support the view that Americans are better and more deserving of a disproportionate share of the world's resources. It does not use the state to create benefits for a specific group of people. It does not shift the costs of now onto the future. It does not allow people to use the power of the state to stop unpopular ideas, criticism, or offensive material. It does not allow the majority to enforce morality through law.

It is not a fun way of life. Imagine living someplace where the state had no moral control over actions and behaviors that do not violate the rights of others? It would be total chaos. People could enter into legal relationships with those of the same sex or people that they are related to. People could use illegal drugs. they could sell organs. Maybe they would be saying things that you find offensive.

That would be a terrible place. The state exists to serve me. I am owed everything and no one should ever do anything that offends or inconveniences me.

[Coreadrin_47]

I believe in unicorns, too!

My favorite thing is voting.  I love it.  That's because hen you write someone's name down on a piece of paper and enough millions of people check off the box beside the name on that piece of paper, that the person who was chosen has undergone what is formally known as the "rite of purification by ballot", and that all negative aspects of their human nature that might exist have been washed away by the will of the majority, and they will only use their armies of hundreds of thousands of men with guns and free reign to use them indiscriminately, without consequence, will be the greatest, bestest thing for all of us!

[myrkul]

Reductio ad absurdum, expertly done.

[AntiCap]

Yes it does, in many ways, but not for the reasons you detailed above.
Good job defeating that straw-man though. I'm sure it was hard work.

[Foxpup]

Yes it does, in many ways, but not for the reasons you detailed above.
Good job defeating that straw-man though. I'm sure it was hard work.

You're not familiar with Poe's Law, are you?

[Raize]

Libertarianism will actually work, yes. But even as a libertarian I really wonder sometimes if the anarcho-capitalists and self-described libertarians on this forum realize that with liberty does come responsibility. You can't fraud your way to success, folks. You've got to take the "responsibility" angle seriously, and be able to own up to your own actions.

[myrkul]

Libertarianism will actually work, yes. But even as a libertarian I really wonder sometimes if the anarcho-capitalists and self-described libertarians on this forum realize that with liberty does come responsibility. You can't fraud your way to success, folks. You've got to take the "responsibility" angle seriously, and be able to own up to your own actions.

+1 but some of us do realize that.

[paraipan]

People do not like libertarianism because it makes their lives harder. It does not support the view that Americans are better and more deserving of a disproportionate share of the world's resources. It does not use the state to create benefits for a specific group of people. It does not shift the costs of now onto the future. It does not allow people to use the power of the state to stop unpopular ideas, criticism, or offensive material. It does not allow the majority to enforce morality through law.

It is not a fun way of life. Imagine living someplace where the state had no moral control over actions and behaviors that do not violate the rights of others? It would be total chaos. People could enter into legal relationships with those of the same sex or people that they are related to. People could use illegal drugs. they could sell organs. Maybe they would be saying things that you find offensive.

That would be a terrible place. The state exists to serve me. I am owed everything and no one should ever do anything that offends or inconveniences me.

Welcome back Atlas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I8BPDjUgKI

[FirstAscent]

People do not like libertarianism because it makes their lives harder. It does not support the view that Americans are better and more deserving of a disproportionate share of the world's resources. It does not use the state to create benefits for a specific group of people. It does not shift the costs of now onto the future. It does not allow people to use the power of the state to stop unpopular ideas, criticism, or offensive material. It does not allow the majority to enforce morality through law.

It is not a fun way of life. Imagine living someplace where the state had no moral control over actions and behaviors that do not violate the rights of others? It would be total chaos. People could enter into legal relationships with those of the same sex or people that they are related to. People could use illegal drugs. they could sell organs. Maybe they would be saying things that you find offensive.

That would be a terrible place. The state exists to serve me. I am owed everything and no one should ever do anything that offends or inconveniences me.

That's not why I don't like libertarianism. Try again.

[cbeast]

People do not like libertarianism because it makes their lives harder. It does not support the view that Americans are better and more deserving of a disproportionate share of the world's resources. It does not use the state to create benefits for a specific group of people. It does not shift the costs of now onto the future. It does not allow people to use the power of the state to stop unpopular ideas, criticism, or offensive material. It does not allow the majority to enforce morality through law.

It is not a fun way of life. Imagine living someplace where the state had no moral control over actions and behaviors that do not violate the rights of others? It would be total chaos. People could enter into legal relationships with those of the same sex or people that they are related to. People could use illegal drugs. they could sell organs. Maybe they would be saying things that you find offensive.

That would be a terrible place. The state exists to serve me. I am owed everything and no one should ever do anything that offends or inconveniences me.

Welcome back Atlas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I8BPDjUgKI

Good catch. I just dislike Libertarians because they write nonsense like this. I usually just ignore them. QED.

[ElMoIsEviL]

Well I tend to use the moniker Mutualist or simply "Anarchist" (without any adjectives) to describe my views.

My one grip with Libertarianism isn't really with the ideology itself but many of the followers of said ideology. You see I have a problem with what Roderick Long calls "Left-Right Conflation-ism" and Kevin Carson calls "Vulgar Libertarianism".

An example of this would be how some view modern day "Corporations" who buy political power. Those institutions are not legitimate. Their wealth was made by way of utilizing means not accessible to any of us. They also tend to be safe from Market competition due to regulations they've purchased. Simply chalking it off as "well they did the best they could under the current conditions" does not cut it.

Their wealth ought to be stripped from them, as we do with bureaucrats and others Statists, the moment Freed Markets takes shape. They are enemies of Liberty and Freed Markets.

[Severian]

The state exists to serve me.

Yeah! I'm sick of choices. I want the state to take them away so the only decision I have to make is, "Coke or Pepsi?"

[Coincomm]

Well I tend to use the moniker Mutualist or simply "Anarchist" (without any adjectives) to describe my views.

My one grip with Libertarianism isn't really with the ideology itself but many of the followers of said ideology. You see I have a problem with what Roderick Long calls "Left-Right Conflation-ism" and Kevin Carson calls "Vulgar Libertarianism".

An example of this would be how some view modern day "Corporations" who buy political power. Those institutions are not legitimate. Their wealth was made by way of utilizing means not accessible to any of us. They also tend to be safe from Market competition due to regulations they've purchased. Simply chalking it off as "well they did the best they could under the current conditions" does not cut it.

Their wealth ought to be stripped from them, as we do with bureaucrats and others Statists, the moment Freed Markets takes shape. They are enemies of Liberty and Freed Markets.

I agree Corporations are in the same league as Governments. Same abuse of power when you get to the depths of it.

[Severian]

I agree Corporations are in the same league as Governments. Same abuse of power when you get to the depths of it.

They're the same thing these days. The only ones that think there's a difference are the average voters.

[Coreadrin_47]

Well I tend to use the moniker Mutualist or simply "Anarchist" (without any adjectives) to describe my views.

My one grip with Libertarianism isn't really with the ideology itself but many of the followers of said ideology. You see I have a problem with what Roderick Long calls "Left-Right Conflation-ism" and Kevin Carson calls "Vulgar Libertarianism".

An example of this would be how some view modern day "Corporations" who buy political power. Those institutions are not legitimate. Their wealth was made by way of utilizing means not accessible to any of us. They also tend to be safe from Market competition due to regulations they've purchased. Simply chalking it off as "well they did the best they could under the current conditions" does not cut it.

Their wealth ought to be stripped from them, as we do with bureaucrats and others Statists, the moment Freed Markets takes shape. They are enemies of Liberty and Freed Markets.

I agree Corporations are in the same league as Governments. Same abuse of power when you get to the depths of it.

Sure, but only to an extent.  I can walk out of walmart without spending a dime.  Try "not spending" on sending other people's kids to school and paying those public teacher bureaucracies.  See how far that gets you and if you don't have men showing up at your house with guns taking your house from you because you "owe" them.

I don't see any walmart cops grabbing people off the sidewalks and dragging them into the store because they "owe" walmart for shelving and stocking all these products on behalf of the public.

[Coincomm]

Well I tend to use the moniker Mutualist or simply "Anarchist" (without any adjectives) to describe my views.

My one grip with Libertarianism isn't really with the ideology itself but many of the followers of said ideology. You see I have a problem with what Roderick Long calls "Left-Right Conflation-ism" and Kevin Carson calls "Vulgar Libertarianism".

An example of this would be how some view modern day "Corporations" who buy political power. Those institutions are not legitimate. Their wealth was made by way of utilizing means not accessible to any of us. They also tend to be safe from Market competition due to regulations they've purchased. Simply chalking it off as "well they did the best they could under the current conditions" does not cut it.

Their wealth ought to be stripped from them, as we do with bureaucrats and others Statists, the moment Freed Markets takes shape. They are enemies of Liberty and Freed Markets.

I agree Corporations are in the same league as Governments. Same abuse of power when you get to the depths of it.

Sure, but only to an extent.  I can walk out of walmart without spending a dime.  Try "not spending" on sending other people's kids to school and paying those public teacher bureaucracies.  See how far that gets you and if you don't have men showing up at your house with guns taking your house from you because you "owe" them.

I don't see any walmart cops grabbing people off the sidewalks and dragging them into the store because they "owe" walmart for shelving and stocking all these products on behalf of the public.

Wal-mart is one of the lesser evils when it comes to corporatism. They act more like clouty market participants than anything.

I look more to Monsanto and BP who bribe their way to government benefits and bailouts.

For instance, Monsanto evades Puerto Rico's constitutional land limit by using several LLC names. They are looking for a monopoly on Puerto Rico agriculture.

Everybody else is forced to follow the rules.

[asdf]

People do not like libertarianism because I can't use the state to enforce my environmental policy through violent coercion.

That's why don't like libertarianism!

better?

[myrkul]

People do not like libertarianism because I can't use the state to enforce my environmental policy through violent coercion.

That's why I don't like libertarianism!

better?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Coreadrin_47]

Well I tend to use the moniker Mutualist or simply "Anarchist" (without any adjectives) to describe my views.

My one grip with Libertarianism isn't really with the ideology itself but many of the followers of said ideology. You see I have a problem with what Roderick Long calls "Left-Right Conflation-ism" and Kevin Carson calls "Vulgar Libertarianism".

An example of this would be how some view modern day "Corporations" who buy political power. Those institutions are not legitimate. Their wealth was made by way of utilizing means not accessible to any of us. They also tend to be safe from Market competition due to regulations they've purchased. Simply chalking it off as "well they did the best they could under the current conditions" does not cut it.

Their wealth ought to be stripped from them, as we do with bureaucrats and others Statists, the moment Freed Markets takes shape. They are enemies of Liberty and Freed Markets.

I agree Corporations are in the same league as Governments. Same abuse of power when you get to the depths of it.

Sure, but only to an extent.  I can walk out of walmart without spending a dime.  Try "not spending" on sending other people's kids to school and paying those public teacher bureaucracies.  See how far that gets you and if you don't have men showing up at your house with guns taking your house from you because you "owe" them.

I don't see any walmart cops grabbing people off the sidewalks and dragging them into the store because they "owe" walmart for shelving and stocking all these products on behalf of the public.

Wal-mart is one of the lesser evils when it comes to corporatism. They act more like clouty market participants than anything.

I look more to Monsanto and BP who bribe their way to government benefits and bailouts.

For instance, Monsanto evades Puerto Rico's constitutional land limit by using several LLC names. They are looking for a monopoly on Puerto Rico agriculture.

Everybody else is forced to follow the rules.

Monsanto might retain some benefits by bribing the state (again, only possible when the state exists in the first place).

But their biggest fascist benefit is in patent law (which is immoral, in all cases, along with the entire concept of IP).  They can patent a planet, are waived from all consequences that their modified food might impose upon consumers, and if anyone DARES to take that and improve it or make it safer, they are sued into oblivion and/or locked into a cage.  It is the artificial monopoly that is the real killer, because the monopoly is where they shirk all accountability, and every natural mechanism of the market is beaten down to a pulp.

[FirstAscent]

People do not like libertarianism because I can't use the state to enforce my environmental policy through violent coercion.

That's why don't like libertarianism!

better?

Don't be an idiot.