Who are THEY? Are they Muslim?

[redsn0w]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

[BADecker]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

[redsn0w]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

What if a muslim that he is a person like me and you don't agree with these sentence? I think he will be a better muslim, because it is really no sense kill someone else in name of a God... really insane. I should read that book ( Quran and also the Bible) in their 'native' language to understand more better the sense.. the arab one for the Quran and ... what is the native language of the Bible?

The problem is: I do not know the Arab language  .

[Muhammed Zakir]

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

I told that the religionofpeace site spread pure disinformation but I know you won't care as you want to spread hatred.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

See the lie! Muslims were tortured and killed by non-Muslims and they had no choice other than to fight non-Muslims for their persistence. However, if the non-Muslims don't torture Muslims, there is no need to fight them.

Quran 2:192 - “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

This verse is about Muslims who were turned out of their homes and families. If you read the verses you can see.

Quran 2:246 - “Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? they said to a prophet (That was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of Allah." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But Allah Has full knowledge of those who do wrong.”
 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Wrong. First of all, prophet didn't write Qur'an and secondly, Qur'an wasn't motivating people to kill or fight for nothing. Read the near verses and you will understand.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

Yes. There are verses with disinformation in that site. Islam isn't telling people to spread hatred and violence. That verses were about fighting at that time. There are many lies in that website.

[BADecker]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

What if a muslim that he is a person like me and you don't agree with these sentence? I think he will be a better muslim, because it is really no sense kill someone else in name of a God... really insane. I should read that book ( Quran and also the Bible) in their 'native' language to understand more better the sense.. the arab one for the Quran and ... what is the native language of the Bible?

The problem is: I do not know the Arab language  .

No two people agree on everything. And the things that they DO agree on, they still have slightly different understandings of. The point is that the world is made up of people who don't agree. Yet we all should live in peace, being patient with each other.

Regarding religion and peace, the written words of Islam suggest violence as well as peace. Most other religions writings suggest only peace. This can be a troublesome contradiction in the minds of knowledgeable Muslims. Which should they follow? Violence or peace? And when?

[Muhammed Zakir]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

What if a muslim that he is a person like me and you don't agree with these sentence? I think he will be a better muslim, because it is really no sense kill someone else in name of a God... really insane. I should read that book ( Quran and also the Bible) in their 'native' language to understand more better the sense.. the arab one for the Quran and ... what is the native language of the Bible?

The problem is: I do not know the Arab language  .

No two people agree on everything. And the things that they DO agree on, they still have slightly different understandings of. The point is that the world is made up of people who don't agree. Yet we all should live in peace, being patient with each other.

Regarding religion and peace, the written words of Islam suggest violence as well as peace. Most other religions writings suggest only peace. This can be a troublesome contradiction in the minds of knowledgeable Muslims. Which should they follow? Violence or peace? And when?

Wrong. Even in Bible there is violence.

"When" has been clearly mentioned in Qur'an and hadiths. They should only fight when they are being attacked or they have no other choice -- conditions apply.

[Spendulus]

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

I told that the religionofpeace site spread pure disinformation but I know you won't care as you want to spread hatred.......
Yes. There are verses with disinformation in that site. Islam isn't telling people to spread hatred and violence. That verses were about fighting at that time. There are many lies in that website.

Lies in that website?  Probably are a few somewhere, or at the least, misunderstandings.  Just like there are lies or misunderstandings on this thread about Islam by the faithful of Islam. 

But let's look at the joyous peace of the last couple of days, as reported by www.thereligionofpeace.com.

2015.05.14 (Kojiti, Nigeria) - Boko Haram open fire on families preparing for bed, killing seven members.
2015.05.14 (Benghazi, Libya) - Seven children are among eight killed when the Islamic State fires a rocket into an apartment building.
2015.05.14 (Palmyra, Syria) - Twenty-six villagers are butchered by the Islamic State, including ten beheaded.
2015.05.14 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Nine foreigners are among fourteen people massacred when the Taliban storm a guesthouse.
2015.05.14 (Mbau, DRC) - Twenty-three more villagers are hacked to death with machetes and hatchets by ADF Islamists.
2015.05.12 (Bankalaparha, Bangladesh) - Four fundamentalists hack a secular blogger to death with knives on charges of being an atheist.

I appreciate that they nicely handle the "Big Lie", that Islam is "a religion of peace."

[redsn0w]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

What if a muslim that he is a person like me and you don't agree with these sentence? I think he will be a better muslim, because it is really no sense kill someone else in name of a God... really insane. I should read that book ( Quran and also the Bible) in their 'native' language to understand more better the sense.. the arab one for the Quran and ... what is the native language of the Bible?

The problem is: I do not know the Arab language  .

No two people agree on everything. And the things that they DO agree on, they still have slightly different understandings of. The point is that the world is made up of people who don't agree. Yet we all should live in peace, being patient with each other.

Regarding religion and peace, the written words of Islam suggest violence as well as peace. Most other religions writings suggest only peace. This can be a troublesome contradiction in the minds of knowledgeable Muslims. Which should they follow? Violence or peace? And when?

Wrong. Even in Bible there is violence.

"When" has been clearly mentioned in Qur'an and hadiths. They should only fight when they are being attacked or they have no other choice -- conditions apply.

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

[BADecker]

Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.

I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

What if a muslim that he is a person like me and you don't agree with these sentence? I think he will be a better muslim, because it is really no sense kill someone else in name of a God... really insane. I should read that book ( Quran and also the Bible) in their 'native' language to understand more better the sense.. the arab one for the Quran and ... what is the native language of the Bible?

The problem is: I do not know the Arab language  .

No two people agree on everything. And the things that they DO agree on, they still have slightly different understandings of. The point is that the world is made up of people who don't agree. Yet we all should live in peace, being patient with each other.

Regarding religion and peace, the written words of Islam suggest violence as well as peace. Most other religions writings suggest only peace. This can be a troublesome contradiction in the minds of knowledgeable Muslims. Which should they follow? Violence or peace? And when?

Wrong. Even in Bible there is violence.

"When" has been clearly mentioned in Qur'an and hadiths. They should only fight when they are being attacked or they have no other choice -- conditions apply.

Nobody is saying that violence isn't spoken about in the Bible. In fact, in Old Testament times God instructed the people of Israel to fight at times. But, two points about this:
1. Israel was instructed to destroy the wicked people of Canaan, when they were taking over their inheritance from God. Israel was instructed by God to fight in defense several times.
2. Nowhere in the O.T. or the N.T. are there general instructions to go out and fight as there are in the Quran.

In the New Testament, there is virtually nothing other than peace instructed. The reason for this is that God has made peace with all mankind through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. The next time that God will move in the direction of violence is, when He Himself will come in the form of Jesus, and destroy the whole world while saving those who believe in Him out of it.

Nobody knows when Jesus will return. But His prophesies regarding what will be happening in the world directly before His return, are being fulfilled more and more on a daily basis worldwide.

The author at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm explains when the Quran speaks of defense, and when it doesn't, in its use of violence.

[Spendulus]

....
I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

As an atheist who believes the miracles of neither the bible or koran, and who thus has no bone to pick in the fight, I can assure you that what your teacher said was false.  Not an intentional lie, but just something he didn't understand.

If you pick up a bible from 1930 or 1950, the King James edition, it will be exactly the same as one published today.  You can look at the edits from 1610 to 1789 and thence to today.  The details are here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

It may well be that forums such as this one serve a useful purpose in presentation of facts of this sort.

[BADecker]

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

[redsn0w]

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

But what is the 'native' language of the Bible? I have never find an exhaustive answer to this question. You are right, but sometimes in the translation it is lost the 'sense'.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

I told that the religionofpeace site spread pure disinformation but I know you won't care as you want to spread hatred.......
Yes. There are verses with disinformation in that site. Islam isn't telling people to spread hatred and violence. That verses were about fighting at that time. There are many lies in that website.

Lies in that website?  Probably are a few somewhere, or at the least, misunderstandings.  Just like there are lies or misunderstandings on this thread about Islam by the faithful of Islam. 

But let's look at the joyous peace of the last couple of days, as reported by www.thereligionofpeace.com.

2015.05.14 (Kojiti, Nigeria) - Boko Haram open fire on families preparing for bed, killing seven members.
2015.05.14 (Benghazi, Libya) - Seven children are among eight killed when the Islamic State fires a rocket into an apartment building.
2015.05.14 (Palmyra, Syria) - Twenty-six villagers are butchered by the Islamic State, including ten beheaded.
2015.05.14 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Nine foreigners are among fourteen people massacred when the Taliban storm a guesthouse.
2015.05.14 (Mbau, DRC) - Twenty-three more villagers are hacked to death with machetes and hatchets by ADF Islamists.
2015.05.12 (Bankalaparha, Bangladesh) - Four fundamentalists hack a secular blogger to death with knives on charges of being an atheist.

I appreciate that they nicely handle the "Big Lie", that Islam is "a religion of peace."

I knew you would post this after I make that post. Like I said, they aren't instructed by Islam, they are doing it for their own political gains and can be seen easily but I don't think you can as you always have biased opinions and already setup your mind.

[BADecker]

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

But what is the 'native' language of the Bible? I have never find an exhaustive answer to this question. You are right, but sometimes in the translation it is lost the 'sense'.

Old Testament is Ancient Hebrew. New Testament is, basically Greek, with a little Aramaic.

[Spendulus]

...

Lies in that website?  Probably are a few somewhere, or at the least, misunderstandings.  Just like there are lies or misunderstandings on this thread about Islam by the faithful of Islam.  

But let's look at the joyous peace of the last couple of days, as reported by www.thereligionofpeace.com.

2015.05.14 (Kojiti, Nigeria) - Boko Haram open fire on families preparing for bed, killing seven members.
2015.05.14 (Benghazi, Libya) - Seven children are among eight killed when the Islamic State fires a rocket into an apartment building.
2015.05.14 (Palmyra, Syria) - Twenty-six villagers are butchered by the Islamic State, including ten beheaded.
2015.05.14 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Nine foreigners are among fourteen people massacred when the Taliban storm a guesthouse.
2015.05.14 (Mbau, DRC) - Twenty-three more villagers are hacked to death with machetes and hatchets by ADF Islamists.
2015.05.12 (Bankalaparha, Bangladesh) - Four fundamentalists hack a secular blogger to death with knives on charges of being an atheist.

I appreciate that they nicely handle the "Big Lie", that Islam is "a religion of peace."

I knew you would post this after I make that post. Like I said, they aren't instructed by Islam, they are doing it for their own political gains and can be seen easily but I don't think you can as you always have biased opinions and already setup your mind.

In a theocracy run by the Big Cleric, there is no difference between politics and religion.

Duhh....

[redsn0w]

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

But what is the 'native' language of the Bible? I have never find an exhaustive answer to this question. You are right, but sometimes in the translation it is lost the 'sense'.

Old Testament is Ancient Hebrew. New Testament is, basically Greek, with a little Aramaic.

Thanks, now I should find someone that knows "ancient hebrew"  and especially find and "Old Testament" not modified,but I think it is hard... for the Quran , I have some friends that know the arab language maybe in the next days I can understand much more from those verses (is this the name? verse?).

...

Lies in that website?  Probably are a few somewhere, or at the least, misunderstandings.  Just like there are lies or misunderstandings on this thread about Islam by the faithful of Islam. 

But let's look at the joyous peace of the last couple of days, as reported by www.thereligionofpeace.com.

2015.05.14 (Kojiti, Nigeria) - Boko Haram open fire on families preparing for bed, killing seven members.
2015.05.14 (Benghazi, Libya) - Seven children are among eight killed when the Islamic State fires a rocket into an apartment building.
2015.05.14 (Palmyra, Syria) - Twenty-six villagers are butchered by the Islamic State, including ten beheaded.
2015.05.14 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Nine foreigners are among fourteen people massacred when the Taliban storm a guesthouse.
2015.05.14 (Mbau, DRC) - Twenty-three more villagers are hacked to death with machetes and hatchets by ADF Islamists.
2015.05.12 (Bankalaparha, Bangladesh) - Four fundamentalists hack a secular blogger to death with knives on charges of being an atheist.

I appreciate that they nicely handle the "Big Lie", that Islam is "a religion of peace."

I knew you would post this after I make that post. Like I said, they aren't instructed by Islam, they are doing it for their own political gains and can be seen easily but I don't think you can as you always have biased opinions and already setup your mind.

In a theocracy run by the Big Cleric, there is no difference between politics and religion.

Duhh....

Exactly, but say (in general) that Islam is a religion of Violence is a little bit exaggerated (remember the strawman fallacy ).

[BADecker]

Islam at its core, in its writings, is a religion of deception and violence. Deception because it speaks peace at the same time it speaks violence.

Islam in the vast majority of Muslims (who mostly are ignorant about what Islam's writings say) is a religion of peace.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Islam at its core, in its writings, is a religion of deception and violence. Deception because it speaks peace at the same time it speaks violence.

Islam in the vast majority of Muslims (who mostly are ignorant about what Islam's writings say) is a religion of peace.

You clearly don't know what you are talking. You are certainly speaking for internet sources rather than reading Qur'an and Hadiths fully.

Islam is about peace but some of the verses in Qur'an is about violence when non-Muslims tortured and killed Muslims. They had no other choices other than to fight if they want to live.

[BlitzandBitz]

Islam at its core, in its writings, is a religion of deception and violence. Deception because it speaks peace at the same time it speaks violence.

Islam in the vast majority of Muslims (who mostly are ignorant about what Islam's writings say) is a religion of peace.

You clearly don't know what you are talking. You are certainly speaking for internet sources rather than reading Qur'an and Hadiths fully.

Islam is about peace but some of the verses in Qur'an is about violence when non-Muslims tortured and killed Muslims. They had no other choices other than to fight if they want to live.

Oh so you mean none of the 109 or so verses don't count.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

[Muhammed Zakir]

Islam at its core, in its writings, is a religion of deception and violence. Deception because it speaks peace at the same time it speaks violence.

Islam in the vast majority of Muslims (who mostly are ignorant about what Islam's writings say) is a religion of peace.

You clearly don't know what you are talking. You are certainly speaking for internet sources rather than reading Qur'an and Hadiths fully.

Islam is about peace but some of the verses in Qur'an is about violence when non-Muslims tortured and killed Muslims. They had no other choices other than to fight if they want to live.

Oh so you mean none of the 109 or so verses don't count.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

No. I mean the correct meaning and what it is meant to be is not what most internet source gives and that site spreads disinformation. Even in the page you gave, there are lot of disinformation.