Clear abuse of DefaultTrust by Vod [RESOLVED]

[CrazyJoker]

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section.

Question:  How does one create an honest ponzi?  Your intention is to steal as much as you can from as many people as you can.  

Please read the PM or the thread above and you'll find how this game works. The Ponzi schemes you are referring always pay old investors from new investor's deposit. This is NOT the case here. New investors can be paid by old investors as every deposit gets 120 hour to expire. In legacy Ponzi games bankroll just goes up and at a certain point owner just take it and run away. This is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down and it is never more than the commission that I make from winners.

I did. All I see are your claims. Lets pick them apart, shall we? Maybe you can answer my questions.

I did explain (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927206.msg10394502#msg10394502) while I was running the first game on this domain and I can explain this time as well.

The basic principle of CrazyPonzi.com is fundamentally different from its predecessors like WeeklyPonzi.com or NextPonzi.com. All those games were based on classic Ponzi principle, where old players are paid out of new player's investment. But, at CrazyPonzi.com new players may also get paid by old players. How ? Because every investment/bet, whatever you call it, will get expired within 120 hour. So, if one investment/bet get 140% of its value within 120 hour, it will be paid off. Otherwise, it will expire and add up to the bankroll to pay the next investment/bet.

Lets pause here for a second. The difference as I understand it is, while a regular ponzi starts a new round after X time and whatever is left goes to the operator in your case it goes to "the bankroll". I assume you as the operator control the bankroll. The only difference I see is that you removed rounds from the game. The fundamental concept is still the same.

Nopes. The fundamental concept is NOT the same. There is no round removed here. When an investment expires, it goes to "the bankroll" means it is used to pay the next pending investment. It does NOT get into my pocket. Only when a player is paid back 140% return, 10% of that goes into my pocket and that is my incentive to run the game honestly.

In this process, bankroll itself is self-adjusting and hence never goes up. On the other hand, operator gets paid a commission whenever someone gets paid. This is how operator makes more from commission than he could make by stealing the bankroll. This was not the case for WeeklyPonzi.com, NextPonzi.com or its similar variants that run today. Hence running away with the bankroll is simply not economical for the operator of CrazyPonzi.com.

Running with the bankroll may be not, but what about faking participants? Firstly I find it troubling that you seem to have no blockchain evidence. Is there none? Is every entrance in the table, there because you say so?

Though I am NOT participating in the game, let us assume for the sake of arguement that I do. What difference does it make ? If my investment does NOT get covered within 120 hour, I'll lose it to my next investors. This game does NOT give me any advantage as a player over others as there is no hidden data. But, in reality, if you check my thread, you'll see lot of investors reported their deposits and they also invest in other games. So, it is NOT me playing against myself.

Lets look at some examples from your site.

Code:

127 	kahnur	0.005		0.007		Expired	00:00:00
126 	Shikaku	0.0078876	0.01104264	Paid	00:00:00
125 	haha	0.0141876	0.01986264	Expired	00:00:00
124 	Schemer	0.1	        0.14		Expired	00:00:00
123 	FIALKA	0.01		0.014		Expired	00:00:00
122 	yazx	0.0026		0.00364		Expired	00:00:00
121 	mrfizzy	0.00126		0.001764	Paid	00:00:00

Why was #125 not paid from the bankroll provided by the expired "investments" from #122 #124. If the only indicator to pay out is another "investment" after me, the bankroll can certainly increase to any amount and your statement from above is wrong.

Because bankroll does NOT increase when a bet expires. It increases when a new bet comes in. When 122 was expiring, bankroll was lower than 0.00364 BTC. After that, new investment came in and bankroll was lower than 0.014 BTC, but higher than 0.012 BTC. That is why 123, 124, 125 expired, but 126 was paid. For classical Ponzi Games like WeeklyPonzi/NextPonzi, the only indicator to pay out is another investment after yours, but this is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down because of new bet & payouts. I hope, now you understand the beauty of the game.

-snip-
Sometimes when I am in the middle of something and the "new personal message" notification comes up, I ignore it to continue what I'm doing, and return to it later.

Thats sooo rude of you Vod, why do you have other things to do with your life but the react to a PM?


Edit: typos, grammar

If he had other things to do in real life, I did NOT have a problem. But, he was posting in the forum, but was NOT responding to my PM after leaving a -ve feedback.

[CrazyJoker]

I was not in the accusation mode while I sent you the PM. I just noted your post count after sending the PM. This was your last post then => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1059939.msg11369539#msg11369539. When I saw, you made a LOT of posts after this, but did NOT reply to me, I created this post.

The site clearly mentions that it is A bitcoin gambling game. What else I can mention to make people aware that they can lose their coins ?

Sometimes when I am in the middle of something and the "new personal message" notification comes up, I ignore it to continue what I'm doing, and return to it later.

Now, it is NOT possible for me to know, how you handle "new personal message". I saw you are posting elswhere for hours and NOT responding to me. So, I assumed you are avoiding me.

Please note that, I have updated the previous post. If you have any suggestion... please do mention them. I have absolutely no problem in making people aware that they are gambling and the 140% return is NOT guaranteed. I would like CrazyPonzi.com to be treated as a Gambling game, NOT an Investment Based Game, where every new player joins with a doubt that I have some hidden plan to run away with their fund.

If you want it to be treated like a gambling game, do what other gambling games do. Make it provably fair.

It is common that everyone from Dice gaming background comes up with this Provably Fair demand. Please do understand that the classical concept of Provably Fair does not apply here, because the whole luck concept is different here than normal dice games. I have also read somewhere that the Provably Fair concept is different for Poker sites as well. For dice sites, you are keeping a random no. hidden. But, there is nothing hidden here. The inflow of new investments and their timing is random itself.

[CrazyJoker]

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

Is that the new standard of trust now?  

No. I am just pointing out that I previously looked into them and didn't think they would be a scam.

From the looks of it they chose their name poorly however I don't think they are the same as other ponzis as the rounds are scheduled to end at a certain time so you need to have enough people invested after you in order for you to not lose.

Although thinking about it a little bit, this does sound a little but like weekly ponzi which was run by scammer James Volpe aka TheGambler aka moreia so maybe it should be looked into to see if the OP,  is an alt of him. Otherwise they are really no different then any other Bitcoin casino but with a somewhat non traditional name.

You may suggest a better name or keywords. It seems, changing the brand is important here...

[CrazyJoker]

If you want it to be threated like a gambling game, do what other gambling games do. Make it provably fair.

OP - I believe your path is laid out for you.  Good luck!

I have explained every questions that you guys have. I'll also explain if you have more questions. But, it is good if you please remove the -ve feedback as we talk. It is creating a bad impression on a fair game for no apparent reason.

[shorena]

-snip-
But, there is nothing hidden here. The inflow of new investments and their timing is random itself.

Transaction IDs are not listed. I dont see a common deposit address either. Both should be found easily. Not providing them openly is hiding something.

-snip-
Nopes. The fundamental concept is NOT the same. There is no round removed here. When an investment expires, it goes to "the bankroll" means it is used to pay the next pending investment. It does NOT get into my pocket. Only when a player is paid back 140% return, 10% of that goes into my pocket and that is my incentive to run the game honestly.
-snip-

Lets look at some examples from your site.

Code:

127 	kahnur	0.005		0.007		Expired	00:00:00
126 	Shikaku	0.0078876	0.01104264	Paid	00:00:00
125 	haha	0.0141876	0.01986264	Expired	00:00:00
124 	Schemer	0.1	        0.14		Expired	00:00:00
123 	FIALKA	0.01		0.014		Expired	00:00:00
122 	yazx	0.0026		0.00364		Expired	00:00:00
121 	mrfizzy	0.00126		0.001764	Paid	00:00:00

Why was #125 not paid from the bankroll provided by the expired "investments" from #122 #124. If the only indicator to pay out is another "investment" after me, the bankroll can certainly increase to any amount and your statement from above is wrong.

Because bankroll does NOT increase when a bet expires. It increases when a new bet comes in. When 122 was expiring, bankroll was lower than 0.00364 BTC. After that, new investment came in and bankroll was lower than 0.014 BTC, but higher than 0.012 BTC. That is why 123, 124, 125 expired, but 126 was paid. For classical Ponzi Games like WeeklyPonzi/NextPonzi, the only indicator to pay out is another investment after yours, but this is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down because of new bet & payouts. I hope, now you understand the beauty of the game.

What? If a bet expires it goes to the bankroll, but the bankroll does NOT increase? How does that work?

Besides...
#122-#124 are expired for a total of 0.1126 BTC. Why did #125 did not get paid 0.01986264? It might make sense if I had more information, but your page does not provide enough information for me to reenact what happend. However part of beeing provably fair is that I can late look at the data provided and understand that there could have been only one possible outcome. When I look at the data your site provides I have questions arising.

About the "I dont play and even if I would I have no advantage" issue: From the information your page currently provides I only see entrances in a table that rely on your local database. You as the operator obviously have database access and could just add entries. I hope you see my problem now and can maybe explain in a way that does not lead to more confusion.

[CrazyJoker]

-snip-
But, there is nothing hidden here. The inflow of new investments and their timing is random itself.

Transaction IDs are not listed. I dont see a common deposit address either. Both should be found easily. Not providing them openly is hiding something.

Because every bet does not correspond to a Tx ID. Players deposit in the site wallet and play from there, just like dice sites. I could make it directly on the blockchain, but that was giving rise to 2 problems...

i. I could NOT identify a referrer and thereby could NOT give referral commission.

ii. Players could NOT use web wallet, as for most web wallets deposit address is not the receiving address.

In any case, I am NOT going to change the structure as the players are already comfortable with it. But, every player who has deposited or withdrawn can identify the site address from blockchain. Moreover, all my withdrawals are listed in the thread.

-snip-
Nopes. The fundamental concept is NOT the same. There is no round removed here. When an investment expires, it goes to "the bankroll" means it is used to pay the next pending investment. It does NOT get into my pocket. Only when a player is paid back 140% return, 10% of that goes into my pocket and that is my incentive to run the game honestly.
-snip-

Lets look at some examples from your site.

Code:

127 	kahnur	0.005		0.007		Expired	00:00:00
126 	Shikaku	0.0078876	0.01104264	Paid	00:00:00
125 	haha	0.0141876	0.01986264	Expired	00:00:00
124 	Schemer	0.1	        0.14		Expired	00:00:00
123 	FIALKA	0.01		0.014		Expired	00:00:00
122 	yazx	0.0026		0.00364		Expired	00:00:00
121 	mrfizzy	0.00126		0.001764	Paid	00:00:00

Why was #125 not paid from the bankroll provided by the expired "investments" from #122 #124. If the only indicator to pay out is another "investment" after me, the bankroll can certainly increase to any amount and your statement from above is wrong.

Because bankroll does NOT increase when a bet expires. It increases when a new bet comes in. When 122 was expiring, bankroll was lower than 0.00364 BTC. After that, new investment came in and bankroll was lower than 0.014 BTC, but higher than 0.012 BTC. That is why 123, 124, 125 expired, but 126 was paid. For classical Ponzi Games like WeeklyPonzi/NextPonzi, the only indicator to pay out is another investment after yours, but this is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down because of new bet & payouts. I hope, now you understand the beauty of the game.

What? If a bet expires it goes to the bankroll, but the bankroll does NOT increase? How does that work?

Besides...
#122-#124 are expired for a total of 0.1126 BTC. Why did #125 did not get paid 0.01986264? It might make sense if I had more information, but your page does not provide enough information for me to reenact what happend. However part of beeing provably fair is that I can late look at the data provided and understand that there could have been only one possible outcome. When I look at the data your site provides I have questions arising.

About the "I dont play and even if I would I have no advantage" issue: From the information your page currently provides I only see entrances in a table that rely on your local database. You as the operator obviously have database access and could just add entries. I hope you see my problem now and can maybe explain in a way that does not lead to more confusion.

As I stated, bankroll actually increases with every new bet. If a bet a bet expires, the bet amount remains in the bankroll or goes to the bankroll, whichever way you explain it. If a bet is paid, the bankroll decreases.

As explained above, the expiration of #122-#124 did NOT increase the bankroll. When #122-#124 were invested, bankroll increased and that helped to pay some previous bet. Expiration of #122-#124 only made sure that the bankroll will now be compared with #125. The site provide enough data to reenact what happend. Just it would be a bit more labourious to reconstruct. Simply sign up and log in. You'll see a blue box on each bet#. Clicking on that, you'll find bet details. That would help you to calculate from bet#1 that what happened according to time of expiration of each bet.

About the "I dont play and even if I would I have no advantage" issue: If I accept your logic, then a dice site can change the seed of a bet and claim that was what in the DB. Players can always take screnshot and if I change DB, it'll immediately be caught and again it wont be economical for me to cheat that way as I make more from commission by honestly running the game.

[CrazyJoker]

I think if you check the current condition, understanding the game will be easier to you. Bet #218 was expired and #219 has been paid. Why ? Because, the bankroll was 0.00198702 BTC, i.e. less than 0.00222264 BTC, but more than 0.00182 BTC. Now, after paying #219, 0.00182 BTC has been deducted from the bankroll and it has gone down to 0.00016702 BTC. If no more investment come in next 24 hour, then #220 will also expire as 0.00016702 < 0.00222264.

[shorena]

-snip-
But, there is nothing hidden here. The inflow of new investments and their timing is random itself.

Transaction IDs are not listed. I dont see a common deposit address either. Both should be found easily. Not providing them openly is hiding something.

Because every bet does not correspond to a Tx ID. Players deposit in the site wallet and play from there, just like dice sites. I could make it directly on the blockchain, but that was giving rise to 2 problems...

i. I could NOT identify a referrer and thereby could NOT give referral commission.

ii. Players could NOT use web wallet, as for most web wallets deposit address is not the receiving address.

In any case, I am NOT going to change the structure as the players are already comfortable with it. But, every player who has deposited or withdrawn can identify the site address from blockchain. Moreover, all my withdrawals are listed in the thread.

Sure, do what ever you want, but dont expect people to not call you out for it. What you are saying is: everyone can check their own deposit. Sure, thats nothing special, thats inherent to the way bitcoin works. You also say that you publicly list withdrawals, which I guess is to "proof" that you pay out. My point though is that no player can confirm or deny the legitimacy of any other player. Neither can their plays be checked. Your argument is: Yep, but its more convenient that way. Ok, go the convenient route, but you are hiding something and this something can give you an unfair advantage.

As I stated, bankroll actually increases with every new bet. If a bet a bet expires, the bet amount remains in the bankroll or goes to the bankroll, whichever way you explain it. If a bet is paid, the bankroll decreases.

As I stated, this probably would make sense if I knew when someone did a bet. The information is no longer available though, thus I cant check what happend. You - again - hide information.

As explained above, the expiration of #122-#124 did NOT increase the bankroll. When #122-#124 were invested, bankroll increased and that helped to pay some previous bet. Expiration of #122-#124 only made sure that the bankroll will now be compared with #125. The site provide enough data to reenact what happend. Just it would be a bit more labourious to reconstruct.

You are now either calling my lazy or stupid due to your poor design choices.

-snip-
About the "I dont play and even if I would I have no advantage" issue: If I accept your logic, then a dice site can change the seed of a bet and claim that was what in the DB. Players can always take screnshot and if I change DB, it'll immediately be caught and again it wont be economical for me to cheat that way as I make more from commission by honestly running the game.

Yes, but a dice site is not PvP. If the operator wants to play against their own bankroll all they do is fake activity. That is bad enough, but at least no one is losing money. Im not talking about a change in hindsight. You could add a bet 0.1 second before someone elses bet is added. The bet could be perfectly caluclated to match the amount available to receive. That would be 2-3 simple lines of code. To the outside it would appear like a lucky player and no one could confirm whether there was an actual person behind the bet that just got lucky. This is the essential propblem with a ponzi, the operator is at an advantage because they control when exactly their system accepts a bet. This is somewhat hard if its done on chain, but since TX-IDs have no timestamps its still possible. This allows them to slip in a bet that is not at risk of losing.

Unless you can solve this problem in a way that is publicly verifiable you can not be called provably fair and will always have someone calling you a scammer. Not because you are a proven scammer (that would be too late) or because you are disthonest (which can not be proven) but because you could scam.

[MarbleBoss]

I think if you check the current condition, understanding the game will be easier to you. Bet #218 was expired and #219 has been paid. Why ? Because, the bankroll was 0.00198702 BTC, i.e. less than 0.00222264 BTC, but more than 0.00182 BTC. Now, after paying #219, 0.00182 BTC has been deducted from the bankroll and it has gone down to 0.00016702 BTC. If no more investment come in next 24 hour, then #220 will also expire as 0.00016702 < 0.00222264.

You are wasting your time Joker. If someone claims that he did not understand the game even after this explanation and still think that it is a plain Ponzi, then either he is too stupid to judge a scam or plain lying to support the Dice lobby. I think, u contacted Dooglus & TomatoCage. None has chimed in. Even if you convince Shorena, Vod will still keep his feedback. The reason is plain & simple. A few people on this forum does not want an honest investment based game to rise and so that investment based dice sites can keep on stealing.

Interestingly, pure scammers are not marked as scammer. Becasue this dice lobby knows those are not the competitor as they'll fail today or tomorrow...

e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=480605, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=511134, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=512093 etc.

[RocketSingh]

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

Is that the new standard of trust now?  

No. I am just pointing out that I previously looked into them and didn't think they would be a scam.

From the looks of it they chose their name poorly however I don't think they are the same as other ponzis as the rounds are scheduled to end at a certain time so you need to have enough people invested after you in order for you to not lose.

Although thinking about it a little bit, this does sound a little but like weekly ponzi which was run by scammer James Volpe aka TheGambler aka moreia so maybe it should be looked into to see if the OP,  is an alt of him. Otherwise they are really no different then any other Bitcoin casino but with a somewhat non traditional name.

I mostly agree with you here. Anyone who spend some time in Investment Based Games, knows CrazyPonzi.com & Nine9.ninja are the only two honest games running in that section. Killing any of them with -ve trust will only benefit the other scammers, because then all will be at par. Both of these games run almost on the same logic and it seriously will be very dumb for the operator to cheat in these games.

[RocketSingh]

Unless you can solve this problem in a way that is publicly verifiable you can not be called provably fair and will always have someone calling you a scammer. Not because you are a proven scammer (that would be too late) or because you are disthonest (which can not be proven) but because you could scam.

I think you are not correct in this judgement. Both you and I carry signatures of dice games that accept investment in the bankroll. We already know, that the operator of these games can easily play & win in his own game as the seed in DB is known to him. In this case, we always give the operator a benefit of doubt, though his actions are not publicly verifiable. Do we leave him -ve trust because he could scam ? In this case, I think, Vod is getting too partial to CrazyPonzi.com just because of the word 'Ponzi'.

[RocketSingh]

I think if you check the current condition, understanding the game will be easier to you. Bet #218 was expired and #219 has been paid. Why ? Because, the bankroll was 0.00198702 BTC, i.e. less than 0.00222264 BTC, but more than 0.00182 BTC. Now, after paying #219, 0.00182 BTC has been deducted from the bankroll and it has gone down to 0.00016702 BTC. If no more investment come in next 24 hour, then #220 will also expire as 0.00016702 < 0.00222264.

You are wasting your time Joker. If someone claims that he did not understand the game even after this explanation and still think that it is a plain Ponzi, then either he is too stupid to judge a scam or plain lying to support the Dice lobby. I think, u contacted Dooglus & TomatoCage. None has chimed in. Even if you convince Shorena, Vod will still keep his feedback. The reason is plain & simple. A few people on this forum does not want an honest investment based game to rise and so that investment based dice sites can keep on stealing.

Interestingly, pure scammers are not marked as scammer. Becasue this dice lobby knows those are not the competitor as they'll fail today or tomorrow...

e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=480605, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=511134, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=512093 etc.

Please do not comment on something that you do not know clearly. This would only complicate the situation.

Vod is not associated with any gambling lobby. Rather, I have seen him suggesting people against investing in dice site. Ref: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1060290.msg11372036#msg11372036

Shorena is probably a gambler, but he is a very logical person. So far, I have seen, Shorena has always stood by what is logical.

The problem here, I believe, the name 'Ponzi'. Though working on same principle, Nine9.ninja has not been given -ve trust. Vod just assumed CrazyPonzi is similar to other Ponzi scams and did what I could to save naive investors. I hope, he'll understand the game and rectify his feedback. Moreover, I think, both CrazyPonzi.com & Nine9.ninja needs to be moved to Gambling section.

[CrazyJoker]

-snip-
But, there is nothing hidden here. The inflow of new investments and their timing is random itself.

Transaction IDs are not listed. I dont see a common deposit address either. Both should be found easily. Not providing them openly is hiding something.

Because every bet does not correspond to a Tx ID. Players deposit in the site wallet and play from there, just like dice sites. I could make it directly on the blockchain, but that was giving rise to 2 problems...

i. I could NOT identify a referrer and thereby could NOT give referral commission.

ii. Players could NOT use web wallet, as for most web wallets deposit address is not the receiving address.

In any case, I am NOT going to change the structure as the players are already comfortable with it. But, every player who has deposited or withdrawn can identify the site address from blockchain. Moreover, all my withdrawals are listed in the thread.

Sure, do what ever you want, but dont expect people to not call you out for it. What you are saying is: everyone can check their own deposit. Sure, thats nothing special, thats inherent to the way bitcoin works. You also say that you publicly list withdrawals, which I guess is to "proof" that you pay out. My point though is that no player can confirm or deny the legitimacy of any other player. Neither can their plays be checked. Your argument is: Yep, but its more convenient that way. Ok, go the convenient route, but you are hiding something and this something can give you an unfair advantage.

If I were running on the blockchain, then the arguement would have been that I am using multiple addresses in the game. Becasue of the nature of bitcoin, it is not possible anyway to track whether two players are same or different. I would like to know how exactly I can get the unfair advantage in running this way, rather than running directly on the blockchain ?

As I stated, bankroll actually increases with every new bet. If a bet a bet expires, the bet amount remains in the bankroll or goes to the bankroll, whichever way you explain it. If a bet is paid, the bankroll decreases.

As I stated, this probably would make sense if I knew when someone did a bet. The information is no longer available though, thus I cant check what happend. You - again - hide information.

No Buddy. This time you are plain wrong. You just need to sign up for free and log in to know when someone placed a bet. I did not make that information available on the home page because it would make the homepage a little more heavy to load.

As explained above, the expiration of #122-#124 did NOT increase the bankroll. When #122-#124 were invested, bankroll increased and that helped to pay some previous bet. Expiration of #122-#124 only made sure that the bankroll will now be compared with #125. The site provide enough data to reenact what happend. Just it would be a bit more labourious to reconstruct.

You are now either calling my lazy or stupid due to your poor design choices.

Are you too lazy to sign up for free and login to check the neccessary information ?

-snip-
About the "I dont play and even if I would I have no advantage" issue: If I accept your logic, then a dice site can change the seed of a bet and claim that was what in the DB. Players can always take screnshot and if I change DB, it'll immediately be caught and again it wont be economical for me to cheat that way as I make more from commission by honestly running the game.

Yes, but a dice site is not PvP. If the operator wants to play against their own bankroll all they do is fake activity. That is bad enough, but at least no one is losing money.

What are you talking about ? In a dice site that accepts investment, if the operator plays against his own bankroll knowing the seeds from his own DB, wont the investors in the bankroll lose money ?

Im not talking about a change in hindsight. You could add a bet 0.1 second before someone elses bet is added. The bet could be perfectly caluclated to match the amount available to receive. That would be 2-3 simple lines of code. To the outside it would appear like a lucky player and no one could confirm whether there was an actual person behind the bet that just got lucky. This is the essential propblem with a ponzi, the operator is at an advantage because they control when exactly their system accepts a bet. This is somewhat hard if its done on chain, but since TX-IDs have no timestamps its still possible. This allows them to slip in a bet that is not at risk of losing.

This time you come up with a brilliant arguement. I seriously did not think about this flaw. Thinking about it a little bit, what I can say for now is, if I programmatically do so it would create a pattern that would be caught by players today or tomorrow. But, if you have a better solution to block this flaw, please let me know.

Unless you can solve this problem in a way that is publicly verifiable you can not be called provably fair and will always have someone calling you a scammer. Not because you are a proven scammer (that would be too late) or because you are disthonest (which can not be proven) but because you could scam.

Same applies to dice site that accepts investment. Do you tag -ve to all dice site owners that accept investment not because they are proven scammer (that would be too late) or because they are disthonest (which can not be proven) but because they could scam investors by playing against their own bankroll ?

[CrazyJoker]

I'll look at it again in my morning.  If the OP wants to be more realistic with his site, and clearly list the risks associated with his game (he doesn't even state you can lose coins!) then I can reconsider my trust. 

As I can see, you are posting in the forum again, but NOT here. Are you reconsidering the trust you have left or planning to leave it as is ?

[shorena]

-snip-
Interestingly, pure scammers are not marked as scammer. Becasue this dice lobby knows those are not the competitor as they'll fail today or tomorrow...

e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=480605, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=511134, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=512093 etc.

I stopped giving out negating ratings on a regular basis once ponzis got their own section with a proper warning. The finer details are up to those that play the games. If you however are coming to different sections I am willing to discuss the topic. I might be biased because I sell my signature to a dice gambling platform. Hard to hide it.

IMHO if I am to stupid to understand your game, its too complex. Its not that I am exceptionally smart, but one playing a game should not need to be in order to understand it.

-snip-
I mostly agree with you here. Anyone who spend some time in Investment Based Games, knows CrazyPonzi.com & Nine9.ninja are the only two honest games running in that section. Killing any of them with -ve trust will only benefit the other scammers, because then all will be at par. Both of these games run almost on the same logic and it seriously will be very dumb for the operator to cheat in these games.

Why would it be dump? How would you know they are cheating? CrazyJoker points out that an automated version might result in patters that players detect, so we are not talking about a perfect crime. On the other hand the skipped nounces on dicebitco.in did take their time to get detected.

-snip-
I think you are not correct in this judgement. Both you and I carry signatures of dice games that accept investment in the bankroll.

Investors have an exceptional high risk to get scammed, yes. Mainly because there is no way for the operator to proof that they will not run. Investing in a dice site is essentially sending someone anonymous money and hope for the best. An investment however is not a game.

We already know, that the operator of these games can easily play & win in his own game as the seed in DB is known to him. In this case, we always give the operator a benefit of doubt, though his actions are not publicly verifiable.

I dont, at least no longer. The only person I trust in this sense with a fair amount of my coins is doog. This is however derailing the conversation and distracting from the topic at hand.

Do we leave him -ve trust because he could scam ? In this case, I think, Vod is getting too partial to CrazyPonzi.com just because of the word 'Ponzi'.

I think Vod has the players in mind, not the investors. The players are the majority of the users. A player on a provable fair site (not limited to dice) has many ways to significantly lower the risk of a scam. They can #1 verify each bet (true for CP), #2 deposit only what they are willing to play (true for CP), #3 withdraw once they played (true for CP). Since the ponzi games let player play against eachother on would also have to be able to verify all other players bets. The order is very important. I am not entirely sure, but I think the PvP section of PrimeDice might have a similar problem. Both players must trust that Stunna did not disclose the seed to the other party.

-snip-
Vod is not associated with any gambling lobby. Rather, I have seen him suggesting people against investing in dice site. Ref: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1060290.msg11372036#msg11372036

Which is true in a sense. Any casino that allows crowd investments has a high incentive to just close shop and leave. The higher the investment the higher the incentive.

Shorena is probably a gambler, but he is a very logical person. So far, I have seen, Shorena has always stood by what is logical.

Thanks. Yes I lost my fair share to gambling sites, both because I played and because I invested.

Vod is essentially without bias because he is not involved. I dont think its good to dismiss someones view just because they are not involved.

The problem here, I believe, the name 'Ponzi'. Though working on same principle, Nine9.ninja has not been given -ve trust. Vod just assumed CrazyPonzi is similar to other Ponzi scams and did what I could to save naive investors. I hope, he'll understand the game and rectify his feedback. Moreover, I think, both CrazyPonzi.com & Nine9.ninja needs to be moved to Gambling section.

My personal problem is not the name or the structure of the game, but that I can not verify the bets to my satisfaction. I had these discussions in the past and if I were to see a solution to create a provable fair ponzi game I would certainly play it. It would probably lose coins, but thats the nature of all luck based games. Even if there is skill involved. The name certainly brings baggage. I dont think that any games of the ponzi kind should be moved to the general gambling section. They got their own section because there is a high amount of scammers running them and many gamblers look down on the concept. It would certainly help if the section had more known sites that have been run for a long time.

-snip-
Are you too lazy to sign up for free and login to check the neccessary information ?

I was, yes. I will change that later and check the details.

-snip-
What are you talking about ? In a dice site that accepts investment, if the operator plays against his own bankroll knowing the seeds from his own DB, wont the investors in the bankroll lose money ?

Yes, as said above. Investors are at an exceptional high risk. Im arguing mainly from the players perspective. Investment is another big topic and its not possible to create it in a provable fair way AFAIK.

Im not talking about a change in hindsight. You could add a bet 0.1 second before someone elses bet is added. The bet could be perfectly caluclated to match the amount available to receive. That would be 2-3 simple lines of code. To the outside it would appear like a lucky player and no one could confirm whether there was an actual person behind the bet that just got lucky. This is the essential propblem with a ponzi, the operator is at an advantage because they control when exactly their system accepts a bet. This is somewhat hard if its done on chain, but since TX-IDs have no timestamps its still possible. This allows them to slip in a bet that is not at risk of losing.

This time you come up with a brilliant arguement. I seriously did not think about this flaw. Thinking about it a little bit, what I can say for now is, if I programmatically do so it would create a pattern that would be caught by players today or tomorrow. But, if you have a better solution to block this flaw, please let me know.

Thats the thing, I have no solution. I am willing to believe that it can be solved, but I am not sure. It might boil down to proving a negative (see e.g. Russels teapot analogy). IMHO the longer your service run the more confident the players will get. This might result in a higher total bankroll and thus a higher incentive for you to just vanish. On the other hand it might also increase your profit which is an incentive to stay honest. It is essentially like the problem an investor to a dice (or similar) site has.

Unless you can solve this problem in a way that is publicly verifiable you can not be called provably fair and will always have someone calling you a scammer. Not because you are a proven scammer (that would be too late) or because you are disthonest (which can not be proven) but because you could scam.

Same applies to dice site that accepts investment. Do you tag -ve to all dice site owners that accept investment not because they are proven scammer (that would be too late) or because they are disthonest (which can not be proven) but because they could scam investors by playing against their own bankroll ?

That is true and no I dont, but I also dont tag you negatively. Maybe it is like you and others say, an image problem. The word ponzi is a loaded term. It is used to describe a particular kind of scams. I think the bias towards your game might be less severe if you would call it differently. It would still have its technical problems though.

[dooglus]

Lets look at some examples from your site.

Code:

127 	kahnur	0.005		0.007		Expired	00:00:00
126 	Shikaku	0.0078876	0.01104264	Paid	00:00:00
125 	haha	0.0141876	0.01986264	Expired	00:00:00
124 	Schemer	0.1	        0.14		Expired	00:00:00
123 	FIALKA	0.01		0.014		Expired	00:00:00
122 	yazx	0.0026		0.00364		Expired	00:00:00
121 	mrfizzy	0.00126		0.001764	Paid	00:00:00

Why was #125 not paid from the bankroll provided by the expired "investments" from #122 #124. If the only indicator to pay out is another "investment" after me, the bankroll can certainly increase to any amount and your statement from above is wrong.

I wondered that as well at first. It looks like #124's 0.1 would have meant the bankroll would be big enough to pay #125.

That logic is incorrect. #124's 0.1 was used to pay an earlier investor, #116 maybe. In other words #125 hadn't even joined the line of people waiting to be paid when #124 made his bet, but there was already a line. A guy near the front of the line got it.

I personally don't consider any kind of Ponzi to be scammy unless they are selling it as guaranteed profit. Most of them promise to return X% profit within Y time because the are great at trading / mining / whatever. If they make it clear that you only get paid if enough people join after you, then that turns it into a game where everyone knows the risks, and I don't see anything wrong with that. This game has a FAQ:

3. So, what is the catch ?

A: Every single investment will expire after 120 hour. Hence every player needs to have more players investing after him before the investment expire. The best way to do this is to spread the word about www.CrazyPonzi.com to as many bitcoiners as possible using your referral link shown in the dashboard.

I think that's good enough. The English could be improved, and I'd like to see it explicitly state that you either get paid out in full or not at all. At first I was thinking I'd get whatever was in the bankroll when my bet expired, up to the full 140% but apparently that isn't the case. But that's a nit pick.

[ Edit: it seems to me that making bets all-or-nothing just encourages people to place a long series of minimum bets instead of a single large bet, because then they can get paid out partially. You should pay out whatever is in the bankroll when a bet expires to simplify things. ]

I'd prefer a little more transparency in this game. Maybe show the bankroll after each "paid" status as well as the number of the bet which enabled that older bet to be paid out. Players have to decide whether they trust the operator not to run with their coins, just as they do with any other gambling game (provably fair or not). Probably fairness makes cheating detectable, but can't prevent it happening.

tldr: IMHO this isn't a scam (it's just a gambling game with a whopping 10% house edge and in which the operator can potentially cheat by betting against himself).

[Vod]

I'll look at it again in my morning.  If the OP wants to be more realistic with his site, and clearly list the risks associated with his game (he doesn't even state you can lose coins!) then I can reconsider my trust. 

As I can see, you are posting in the forum again, but NOT here. Are you reconsidering the trust you have left or planning to leave it as is ?

I think some of the ideas the community has left here have merit.

1) Display the bank balance after each transaction - this way everyone can see if you are being honest or if you are slowly building up a balance to disappear with (because that's what ponzis do)

2) Display a link to the blockchain transaction after each deposit/withdrawal.

3) Make it clear on the website when and how a player can lose what they have deposited.

[RocketSingh]

I'll look at it again in my morning.  If the OP wants to be more realistic with his site, and clearly list the risks associated with his game (he doesn't even state you can lose coins!) then I can reconsider my trust. 

As I can see, you are posting in the forum again, but NOT here. Are you reconsidering the trust you have left or planning to leave it as is ?

I think some of the ideas the community has left here have merit.

1) Display the bank balance after each transaction - this way everyone can see if you are being honest or if you are slowly building up a balance to disappear with (because that's what ponzis do)

2) Display a link to the blockchain transaction after each deposit/withdrawal.

3) Make it clear on the website when and how a player can lose what they have deposited.

I think, the community including QuickSeller, Shorena & me almost agreed that this is not a scam, though it has a few drawbacks that every dice site that accept investment in bankroll do have.

Even dooglus summarized it as not a scam...

tldr: IMHO this isn't a scam (it's just a gambling game with a whopping 10% house edge and in which the operator can potentially cheat by betting against himself).

As a community, we suggested some improvements that joker may consider to implement. But, that does not hold us the right to tag him as a scammer anymore. QuickSeller, Shorena & Dooglus all are in DefaultTrust and they voted against terming joker as a scammer. Moreover, one of the reason that you are in DefaultTrust now is because Dooglus trusted you. IMHO, irrespective of whether joker implement the changes or not, you should remove the -ve feedback or at least change it to neutral. Otherwise, logically you should leave -ve feedback on every dice site operator that accepts investment in the bankroll.

[Vod]

Otherwise, logically you should leave -ve feedback on every dice site operator that accepts investment in the bankroll.

I hope I don't have to do that - it would be a lot of needless work.  

I'm trying to work out a personal policy to determine when a ponzi should be flagged as a ponzi - so that everyone is treated equally.  One of the ways they wouldn't be flagged was if they clearly stated for a reasonable person that they could lose all their money and that a return is not guaranteed.  (OP does not do that.)

Since the OP called me out as an abuser and contacted my default trust sponsors, I don't feel removing the trust until my policy is developed is an appropriate thing to do - I think the community should stay involved.

Edit:  It appears the OP has increased the minimum playing amount by tenfold.   

Just increased the minimum bet amount from 0.001 BTC to 0.01 BTC. Hopefully it does NOT affect anyone and make the game more interesting for all...

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Otherwise, logically you should leave -ve feedback on every dice site operator that accepts investment in the bankroll.

I hope I don't have to do that - it would be a lot of needless work.   

I'm trying to work out a personal policy to determine when a ponzi should be flagged as a ponzi - so that everyone is treated equally.  One of the ways they wouldn't be flagged was if they clearly stated for a reasonable person that they could lose all their money and that a return is not guaranteed.  (OP does not do that.)

Since the OP called me out as an abuser and contacted my default trust sponsors, I don't feel removing the trust until my policy is developed is an appropriate thing to do - I think the community should stay involved.

Edit:  It appears the OP has increased the minimum playing amount by tenfold.   

Just increased the minimum bet amount from 0.001 BTC to 0.01 BTC. Hopefully it does NOT affect anyone and make the game more interesting for all...

The problem with OP is that, like all heros, he has a fatal flaw. He can't bring himself to believe he's a scammer, whereas the truth of the matter is that he probably is.