Is there any way for casinos to cheat the provably fair?

[XinXan]

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

[jaberwock]

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

with so many people pissed about losing money, I think if PD could, people would not stop talking about it and either it would be corrected or PD would die

[arallmuus]

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

It is not impossible, but it is still possible since the house could skip 1 or 2 nonce for every X bet but PrimeDice wont be risking their reputation by cheating the rolls. They are making alot of BTC even without cheating.

Your friend can use this simple verifier to verify the rolls if he think the house is cheating the rolls http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

Actually it is about psychology state, people tend to blame the others if they lose something, i.e your friend blame PrimeDice for cheating the rolls because he lost there

[jeannemadrigal2]

There will always be a way for the house to cheat.  Is there a browser plugin to auto verify if it is fair?  Because tbh someone placing lots of bets is very unlikely to check all the numbers.  I know I would not.  If you are betting fast and not notating the checks, then they may be able to cheat right in front of your face because you are not paying attention.

Seriously if someone made a browser extension that auto checked this stuff I bet you could sell it.  Even if you only charged .05 btc, I bet you could make some money.

You are welcome for the awesome idea B)

[XinXan]

There will always be a way for the house to cheat.  Is there a browser plugin to auto verify if it is fair?  Because tbh someone placing lots of bets is very unlikely to check all the numbers.  I know I would not.  If you are betting fast and not notating the checks, then they may be able to cheat right in front of your face because you are not paying attention.

Seriously if someone made a browser extension that auto checked this stuff I bet you could sell it.  Even if you only charged .05 btc, I bet you could make some money.

You are welcome for the awesome idea B)

Yeah but we already discussed that, no casino would do that because they would be eventually caught, of course most people wont verify each bet but when someone does and founds out the site was cheating, thats it, the site is dead.

If anyone else knows something that we dont, speak to us!

[andolini82]

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

They cant change it once the hash is shown then its all done there. Even if the hash is shown, most people dont verify their rolls, due tot that if the house is thinking of cheating then they would probably be skipping the nonce instead since people wont be noticing if a nonce is missing or not

P.S : casino is designed with edge which means they will get more instead of losing more

They have no reason to do that when casino can earn with their house edge.
It would destroy their reputation which is not a way anyone will run a business.

999dice does this and the site is still standing right now. Players are quite a bunch there and most of them doesnt care and keep on rolling blindly even though there are alot of evidences that prove the site is a scam site

After i read alot info from all post from u above, can u give any recomended site that give real provably fair or at least alittle bit fair..

[vennali]

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

It is not impossible, but it is still possible since the house could skip 1 or 2 nonce for every X bet but PrimeDice wont be risking their reputation by cheating the rolls. They are making alot of BTC even without cheating.

Your friend can use this simple verifier to verify the rolls if he think the house is cheating the rolls http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

Actually it is about psychology state, people tend to blame the others if they lose something, i.e your friend blame PrimeDice for cheating the rolls because he lost there

I feel even if any site was to cheat by skipping rolls they would probably do it by doing it when the robot is on . That way for every 100 bets, they could skip one of the bets, and that along could give them an extra percent or more of house edge.

[vennali]

After i read alot info from all post from u above, can u give any recomended site that give real provably fair or at least alittle bit fair..

I would suggest visiting a live casino like that of Cloudbet or Jetwin if you are worried or aren't sure how to verify provably fair systems. Atleast there the chances of being cheated are much less, even though some people don't feel so.

[adaseb]

This was discussed many many times in the past.

Technically it is possible, because most players NEVER change the client seed, so the gambling site can assume for the next bet you re-use the old seed and they can product their own results. This was never proven however.

[romano1]

This was discussed many many times in the past.

Technically it is possible, because most players NEVER change the client seed, so the gambling site can assume for the next bet you re-use the old seed and they can product their own results. This was never proven however.

Even i too never change the seed because it seems as a burden to me in doing so lol. But where we are lazy and that can act as a loop hole cant be called cheat.

[keepinquiet]

Because most people reading this didn't see the original threads, I want to sum up what happened.

I played on 999dice and won a lot. No insignificant sum.

And then I started losing like crazy, to the tune of "an absolute fuckton" of BTC. Which is when I started looking, and noticed their scam system.

So I wrote a javascript bot that would click 'set client seed' and set it to a random value FOR EVERY ROLL. Once I did this, shockingly (I know), my horrific losing streak ended and I won back about 42 of my lost bitcoin.

Which is when the admin noticed what I was doing, and banned me from the site, and threatened to confiscate any deposits I made from then on.

So I called them out publicly, at first they didn't respond, then responded with BS accusations I had attempted to scam them first (Side note: Even if I had, that's irrelevant and has nothing to do with them cheating their customers). Once it got big and all the crypto news outlets were reporting it, they changed their system so it LOOKS like they made an improvement, but really did not. It's no better than it was before this all started. But there are the 999dice kool aid drinkers who will swear up and down it's fair (while, I'd imagine, they have never actually verified a bet there).

If you play there, you deserve to lose every penny, because you're an idiot.

("You" being figurative, this isn't directed at anyone in particular. Well, unless you play there. Then I mean you.)

[vennali]

This was discussed many many times in the past.

Technically it is possible, because most players NEVER change the client seed, so the gambling site can assume for the next bet you re-use the old seed and they can product their own results. This was never proven however.

This is however mostly possible only in games like Blackjack. In cases of Dice, they usually can't do that, as the user has a choice what to bet on, but on Blackjack they are just aiming to get to 21 .

If you read the Nitrogensports thread, they are accused of something like this, but there is actually no way to prove it . Best thing to do is stay off the sites and play live. 

[grendel25]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

So that's what a "nonce" is!  Thank you for explaining that.  I had seen the "nonce" term thrown around here and there but never really understood it.  Now I understand a lot better.  I was watching some analysis on Prime Dice and it was easy to see the nonce was consistently incrementing with no skips.  But I was trying to prove any nonce consistency in 999dice and couldn't really see it.

[mayflor2]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

It depends how their provably fair mechanism is coded.   I have seen it done a few different ways and not all of them are as fair and secure as they claim.

[XinXan]

Because most people reading this didn't see the original threads, I want to sum up what happened.

I played on 999dice and won a lot. No insignificant sum.

And then I started losing like crazy, to the tune of "an absolute fuckton" of BTC. Which is when I started looking, and noticed their scam system.

So I wrote a javascript bot that would click 'set client seed' and set it to a random value FOR EVERY ROLL. Once I did this, shockingly (I know), my horrific losing streak ended and I won back about 42 of my lost bitcoin.

Which is when the admin noticed what I was doing, and banned me from the site, and threatened to confiscate any deposits I made from then on.

So I called them out publicly, at first they didn't respond, then responded with BS accusations I had attempted to scam them first (Side note: Even if I had, that's irrelevant and has nothing to do with them cheating their customers). Once it got big and all the crypto news outlets were reporting it, they changed their system so it LOOKS like they made an improvement, but really did not. It's no better than it was before this all started. But there are the 999dice kool aid drinkers who will swear up and down it's fair (while, I'd imagine, they have never actually verified a bet there).

If you play there, you deserve to lose every penny, because you're an idiot.

("You" being figurative, this isn't directed at anyone in particular. Well, unless you play there. Then I mean you.)

Yeah thats what i was saying when i was talking with dooglus about it, the customers there seem to be really stupid like extremely stupid, im not really sure why but seems like all of them like it there. Im not going to lie, i liked the site aswell it was simple and fast.

Now the problem is, how do you prove they are cheating for sure or anyone else that might be doing these kind of tricks? And anyways isnt most casinos online that dont use bitcoins not provably fair?

[Light]

If implemented correctly (i.e. with hashes shown beforehand) provably fair is meant to be just that, provably fair. You should be able to verify the result of any roll and thereby ensure that the house isn't cheating you. For the older sites like JD and PD - most of them have had such an implementation for quite a while. The only problem that I can see is if the owner actually plays the house and causes losses. Since they would have access to the server seed and adjust their own client seed - they would be able to determine the outcome of rolls prior to them occurring allowing them to win while masquerading as a user. AFAIK, this issue hasn't been addressed but it might have changed since the last time I checked.

[ronaldo40]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

I think that provably fair no effect I've tried a few games of dice and try to change the seed hash but still game so that and eventually lost as well. This according to me but perhaps by others that provably fair is working well

[vennali]

The only problem that I can see is if the owner actually plays the house and causes losses. Since they would have access to the server seed and adjust their own client seed - they would be able to determine the outcome of rolls prior to them occurring allowing them to win while masquerading as a user. AFAIK, this issue hasn't been addressed but it might have changed since the last time I checked.

That would be provably fair for investors. However I am yet to see a site which has implemented that. I think its possible if part of the seeds are generated by a 3rd party, and part of the seeds are generated by the site itself, and the 3rd component(client seed) from the gambler.
But seems none of the major sites has actually implemented that .

[arallmuus]

I think that provably fair no effect I've tried a few games of dice and try to change the seed hash but still game so that and eventually lost as well. This according to me but perhaps by others that provably fair is working well

You seem to have no idea what "provably fair" means. It is not a thing that will increase your winning chance if you change your seed hash. It is a mechanism to verify your bet and see if the house is cheating or not

The only problem that I can see is if the owner actually plays the house and causes losses.

Yes the owner of the sites could, this is a concern about a site with investment feature, in the end you will have to trust your site operator

So that's what a "nonce" is!  Thank you for explaining that.

No problem

But I was trying to prove any nonce consistency in 999dice and couldn't really see it.

AFAIK 999dice is cheating by not showing the hashes beforehand and not by skipping nonce ( probably they are skipping nonce as well )

P.S : not quite sure about this, I may be wrong

I feel even if any site was to cheat by skipping rolls they would probably do it by doing it when the robot is on . That way for every 100 bets, they could skip one of the bets, and that along could give them an extra percent or more of house edge.

A small percentage for profit and a small thing that could ruin their site reputation. Once people know about this, the site will be dead as no one will be playing there again so it is safe to assume that some big sites like PrimeDice and JustDice is not doing this since it could hurt their reputation badly

[vennali]

I feel even if any site was to cheat by skipping rolls they would probably do it by doing it when the robot is on . That way for every 100 bets, they could skip one of the bets, and that along could give them an extra percent or more of house edge.

A small percentage for profit and a small thing that could ruin their site reputation. Once people know about this, the site will be dead as no one will be playing there again so it is safe to assume that some big sites like PrimeDice and JustDice is not doing this since it could hurt their reputation badly

Well, there is absolutely no way of knowing if a site cheats or plays against the investors as it will just be another investor. Primedice has no reason to do it as they have no investors(unless they play against the private investors , if they have any) . Can't comment on any other site as its almost impossible to know.