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Monster Tent
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September 11, 2012, 01:36:27 PM
 #21

True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.
That would be nice in an all-bitcoin economy.
As long as shop owners need goods from the dollar economy they can see the price of those goods vary over a range of 100%+ seen from bitcoins perspective.

And the question is not whether bitcoin is stable for a floating decentralized currency.
The question is whether it is stable enough to operate on.
For most businesses the answer is 'No'.


We all know the answer there - bitpay are the most well-known, you price in USD and dynamically calculate BTC prices using an external entity.

And use updating epaper price tags  Smiley

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September 11, 2012, 01:37:12 PM
 #22

They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

That's a great idea. It would also go a long way to being able to develop such mechanisms in general.
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September 11, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
 #23

True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.

Doesn't matter, bitcoin is still perceived as something dodgy because of the bad press and people don't think logically.

My answer is to try and reduce future incidences of scams through 2 concrete ideas that could be implemented in the client, that's the real point of this thread.

No, your idea is to keep information about said scams from the publics eyes to make them think reality is different from reality.
It is propaganda and it is a scam to fix the ongoing scams.
Way to go...


Re-read my posts - I mentioned 2 approaches, the first of which is to try and counteract the bad press, which I acknowledge is not the best approach.

The second is to try and reduce the incidence of problems in the first place - this is beneficial for more than just PR for obvious reasons.

To repeat, here's my actual concrete suggestions:

Use multisig transactions and have the client popup a notice when a "half-signed" input is used in a transaction asking the user to confirm they want to sign the transaction - exchange operators should then ONLY use multisig transactions.

When the user clicks to send money, have a list of bullet points asking the user to ensure they know how to protect themselves in the send funds dialog and have the user confirm understanding, at the same time add a "do not bother me again" checkbox - this should be in the mainstream bitcoin.org client but is also wise for other clients too.

We could also try things such as web of trust networks - for known services, they can publish addresses they own through a standard protocol or offer a means to confirm "yes we own this one" or "no we don't own this one" - the client can then tie this into a web of trust and give the user a feedback score on how trustworthy the service appears to be.

Basically we need to do a lot more to reduce the incidence of scams while acknowledging that due to human nature wiping them out completely is impossible.
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September 11, 2012, 01:41:29 PM
 #24

Yes Gareth
I find this sad.
It also, even as a medium term user of Bitcoin has me wondering wth I'm doing here some days...
It wouldn't look so bad even if there was just one thread per scam but it seems everyone with a semi related thought has to open a new thread - making everything look much worse as well :/

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September 11, 2012, 01:42:39 PM
 #25

True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.
That would be nice in an all-bitcoin economy.
As long as shop owners need goods from the dollar economy they can see the price of those goods vary over a range of 100%+ seen from bitcoins perspective.

And the question is not whether bitcoin is stable for a floating decentralized currency.
The question is whether it is stable enough to operate on.
For most businesses the answer is 'No'.


We all know the answer there - bitpay are the most well-known, you price in USD and dynamically calculate BTC prices using an external entity.

But then the customers get screwed.
Before they bought the good from the store when btc was $2 and after the transaction check btc price and its $5.
To them they just bought something at more than 200% the price.
So, then the customers must use these bitpay and whatnot services to minimize their risk.
In the end bitcoin would just be an extention of fiat all the way from supply chain to customer.
Monster Tent
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September 11, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
 #26

They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

That's a great idea. It would also go a long way to being able to develop such mechanisms in general.

It works on the silk road. It would dramatically reduce the incidence of scams.

mobodick
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September 11, 2012, 01:47:55 PM
 #27

Perhaps if the staff of the board stopped promoting and engaging in scams it might help a little?

I'd like to see this board deleted, all posts removed and everyone start from zero again. Take the marketplace/scam-central out and make this board only for the discussion of bitcoin and its development as a currency. If there's no ability to make deals here, scammers will go elsewhere.

I'm new as a poster here but have been lurking for a long time and using bitcoin for about 18 months. I'd never tell anyone I know in RL to look at this board. I can go up the street and find all the scammers and beggars I want. I'm not sure why they're not encouraged but also cultivated here.

This place is a damn shame. If this is the future of bitcoin, we're all fucked.

They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

Alternatively move all the technical discussions to bitcoin.org and the marketplace implement  id verification similar to glbse.
Who's gonna trust that and why?
GLBSE terms of service is very explicit on how far you should trust them:
Quote
2. The Exchange assumes no responsibility or liability for any fraud committed on this exchange, but will do its best to prevent its occurrence.
3. The Exchange assumes no responsibility for the terms of assets that are traded or listed on the Exchange, or for the actions of any of the Users issuing assets that are traded or listed on the Exchange.
4. It is not the Exchange's responsibility to ensure that those trading, listing, or issuing assets on the Exchange are operating according to any kind of rules, regulations, laws, or standards those trading, listing, or issuing assets on the Exchange are subject to in any jurisdiction, beyond these terms of service.
5. The Users of the Exchange take full responsibility for their own actions, and any consequences resulting from those actions. It is the Users' own responsibility to determine the risks involved in depositing funds with the Exchange, creating assets, executing trades, or any other activity or action related to the use of the Exchange, or any of its current services.

Translation:
1. If you get screwed it's your own problem.
2. Also, if you get screwed: BWAHAHAHA
mobodick
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September 11, 2012, 01:50:39 PM
 #28

True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.

Doesn't matter, bitcoin is still perceived as something dodgy because of the bad press and people don't think logically.

My answer is to try and reduce future incidences of scams through 2 concrete ideas that could be implemented in the client, that's the real point of this thread.

No, your idea is to keep information about said scams from the publics eyes to make them think reality is different from reality.
It is propaganda and it is a scam to fix the ongoing scams.
Way to go...


Re-read my posts - I mentioned 2 approaches, the first of which is to try and counteract the bad press, which I acknowledge is not the best approach.

The second is to try and reduce the incidence of problems in the first place - this is beneficial for more than just PR for obvious reasons.

To repeat, here's my actual concrete suggestions:

Use multisig transactions and have the client popup a notice when a "half-signed" input is used in a transaction asking the user to confirm they want to sign the transaction - exchange operators should then ONLY use multisig transactions.

When the user clicks to send money, have a list of bullet points asking the user to ensure they know how to protect themselves in the send funds dialog and have the user confirm understanding, at the same time add a "do not bother me again" checkbox - this should be in the mainstream bitcoin.org client but is also wise for other clients too.

We could also try things such as web of trust networks - for known services, they can publish addresses they own through a standard protocol or offer a means to confirm "yes we own this one" or "no we don't own this one" - the client can then tie this into a web of trust and give the user a feedback score on how trustworthy the service appears to be.

Basically we need to do a lot more to reduce the incidence of scams while acknowledging that due to human nature wiping them out completely is impossible.

Ok, i may have misunderstood your number 2. point.
It reads as if you want to stop the bad press.
We should just focus on stopping the scams and bad press will decline accordingly. Bad press is the symptom here, not the cause.
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September 11, 2012, 01:51:29 PM
 #29

Gareth,

Great points.  Your post brings up a few issues.

1.  I think this forum is becoming a bit of a cesspool, with the the HYIP, Pirate, MNW threads.  There is even a very active thread calling for more civliity so it is obviously something that is greatly desired here.

2.  Drama makes great press so we are never going to prevent bad PR ever.  Look at the hazing big banks are getting today.

3.  The bad press is actually a great smoke screen for bitcoin.  Eventually some of this technology is going to emerge and solve some of these problems and that will be the big new news story. In the mean time, everyone (including govn't and regulators) will keep looking the other way and right now that's not a bad thing while bitcoin is trying to get its act together.  The recent price stablilty says to me that we are one our way.

4. Finally, what are the bitcoin business doing collectively to make this a better, safer community.  It's a shame what happened to bitfloor and yes mistakes were make but what if MT. GOX, and BitFloor and Bit Instant and Bitpay and the Dev team etc shared best security practices and encourage some type of collective collaboration in spite of being competitors (or is that already happening in the background).  I would think the success of everyone's business would mean a more robust economy for everyone.
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September 11, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
 #30

People freak-out about all the scams that happen.  I think that this is mostly growing pains.

Over time the businesses and ventures that are well-run and reputable will grow larger, gain more loyal costumers, and extend their service.

Scammers take advantage of the fact that people are coming from a very different financial world, and are very trusting mainly because: in the traditional world people with guns prosecute you if you scam.

Having a higher power enforce laws is the simple solution to the problem.  However the problem with (the simple solution) is that it creates an environment that people want to escape (hence Bitcoin, and the turmoil of the traditional markets).


The best solution, also happens to be the hardest: Build decentralized secure infrastructure, that has so much utility that people _choose_ to use it voluntarily over the less-secure options.

This is why I said "Give It Time," in my previous post.  Secure Decentralized Networks are NP-Hard.  aka.  They are very difficult problems to tackle (hence why the violent simple solutions are so-often used).
But, I'm optimistic, the Bitcoin Community is full of extremely smart and motivated people that love Bitcoin, and love solving hard problems.  Maybe some of them will have the inspiration to design and implement the novel infrastructure that we require.

This is all growing pains.  If we continue to have the free-transfer of information. (speech and ideas, and in-essence Bitcoin itself).  I believe that the 'ZOMG Scammers' issue will start to fade away.


If all else fails.  At least I'm one of the people working on the infrastructure.  Checkout the Open Transactions project:  https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions

One off NP-Hard.
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September 11, 2012, 01:56:14 PM
 #31

Use multisig transactions and have the client popup a notice when a "half-signed" input is used in a transaction asking the user to confirm they want to sign the transaction - exchange operators should then ONLY use multisig transactions.

Ok, this would be a good start.
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September 11, 2012, 02:07:18 PM
 #32

People freak-out about all the scams that happen.  I think that this is mostly growing pains.

Over time the businesses and ventures that are well-run and reputable will grow larger, gain more loyal costumers, and extend their service.

Scammers take advantage of the fact that people are coming from a very different financial world, and are very trusting mainly because: in the traditional world people with guns prosecute you if you scam.

Having a higher power enforce laws is the simple solution to the problem.  However the problem with (the simple solution) is that it creates an environment that people want to escape (hence Bitcoin, and the turmoil of the traditional markets).


The best solution, also happens to be the hardest: Build decentralized secure infrastructure, that has so much utility that people _choose_ to use it voluntarily over the less-secure options.

This is why I said "Give It Time," in my previous post.  Secure Decentralized Networks are NP-Hard.  aka.  They are very difficult problems to tackle (hence why the violent simple solutions are so-often used).
But, I'm optimistic, the Bitcoin Community is full of extremely smart and motivated people that love Bitcoin, and love solving hard problems.  Maybe some of them will have the inspiration to design and impatient the novel infrastructure that we require.

This is all growing pains.  If we continue to have the free-transfer of information. (speech and ideas, and in-essence Bitcoin itself).  I believe that the 'ZOMG Scammers' issue will start to fade away.


If all else fails.  At least I'm one of the people working on the infrastructure.  Checkout the Open Transactions project:  https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions

If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.
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September 11, 2012, 02:13:33 PM
 #33

Yes Gareth
I find this sad.
It also, even as a medium term user of Bitcoin has me wondering wth I'm doing here some days...
It wouldn't look so bad even if there was just one thread per scam but it seems everyone with a semi related thought has to open a new thread - making everything look much worse as well :/

Yes, let's all keep posting in 700+ post pages.
THAT will clear things up.
 Undecided

A forum is inherently a dynamic happening.
People are social and stuff, you cannot prevent it without being a mod nazi.
What needs to happen is that businesses should get their OWN forum with subforums about all aspects of that business.
Businesses should not be run from this forum.
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September 11, 2012, 02:21:19 PM
 #34


Businesses should not be run from this forum.


We came to the same conclusion in another thread. This forum should specialize in discussion. It would probably do a better job without the marketplace.

If someone was to start a discussion in the meta sub forum, I would support it.

Interesting.  What is the other thread?
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September 11, 2012, 03:00:01 PM
 #35


If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Maybe a little faith.

edit: if they are going to be solved, the bitcoin community is the environment where it is going to happen.

One off NP-Hard.
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September 11, 2012, 03:02:15 PM
 #36


If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Maybe a little faith.

edit: if they are going to be solved, the bitcoin community is the environment where it is going to happen.

I think we all have faith that bitcoin can and will be something better or we wouldn't be here.  Keep up the good work!
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September 11, 2012, 03:09:43 PM
 #37


If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Maybe a little faith.

edit: if they are going to be solved, the bitcoin community is the environment where it is going to happen.

I think you have no idea what NP-hard means.
Show me mathematical proof of how you solve NP-hard problems with faith.
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September 11, 2012, 03:12:21 PM
 #38

Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.
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September 11, 2012, 03:15:27 PM
 #39

Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.

And a little plagiarism. : )

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_einstein.htm
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September 11, 2012, 03:17:23 PM
 #40

Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.

And a little plagiarism. : )

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_einstein.htm

Never knew that! 
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