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Severian
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September 11, 2012, 08:18:27 PM
 #61

Blockchain.info wallet supports multisig escrow transactions now:

Even better to know. Thanks.

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To be clear, this still won't help if you "invest" your money in a Ponzi scheme.

No worries there.

Even with multisig, it can still lead to the unwary, the unwitting and the greedy being taken in. I know this is obvious to some but it might not be to others.
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September 11, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
 #62

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?

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September 11, 2012, 08:48:51 PM
 #63

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
As far as I know, the community is very concerned about creating a positive public image, but the problems are real and need to get solved. However, I agree that this has gone too far and the victims are annoying and contraproductive.

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September 11, 2012, 09:07:03 PM
 #64

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
But would you want bitcoin to become mainstream in its current state?
I think that bitcoin is not mature enough to hit mainstream for several reasons.
Just one of those reasons is the increasing scams and robberies.
At the moment a large part of the bitcoin community consists of immature gamblers and that is also why you read so many negative things. There are a lot of negative things going on and everyone seems to want to make a quick buck.
And it needs to be discussed and it needs to be fixed for bitcoin to grow further.
I just don't see bitcoin being used by the mainstream with exchanges being hacked left and right and 7% per week schemes rising from the ground without being dealt with.
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September 11, 2012, 09:17:23 PM
 #65

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
As far as I know, the community is very concerned about creating a positive public image, but the problems are real and need to get solved. However, I agree that this has gone too far and the victims are annoying and contraproductive.

True, but this is also in part a problem of running the whole community, including a lot of businesses, off of one website.
That's another problem with bitcoin at the moment.
New users want to see a happy face but they get to see the raw thing.
I understand this, but i think bitcoin is still not good enough to put up a happy face and be truthfull about it.

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September 11, 2012, 09:18:42 PM
 #66

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
But would you want bitcoin to become mainstream in its current state?
I think that bitcoin is not mature enough to hit mainstream for several reasons.
Just one of those reasons is the increasing scams and robberies.
At the moment a large part of the bitcoin community consists of immature gamblers and that is also why you read so many negative things. There are a lot of negative things going on and everyone seems to want to make a quick buck.
And it needs to be discussed and it needs to be fixed for bitcoin to grow further.
I just don't see bitcoin being used by the mainstream with exchanges being hacked left and right and 7% per week schemes rising from the ground without being dealt with.

But if we can help bitcoin become bigger, the freemarket will act to suppress the scams. People will learn to avoid them and become more responsible.

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defxor
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September 11, 2012, 09:28:39 PM
 #67

Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.
Deluded human!
Know that all scientists stand on the shoulders of giants.
And Isaac Newton less so then others.

Except when he quoted Bernard of Chartres on that very subject, of course Wink

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September 11, 2012, 09:29:50 PM
 #68

Scams are best prevented by systematic security, anything else is just icing on the cake.

As long as there are bitcoin "banks" where lots of people store their coins where other people have access to them thefts will happen. There is no "free market" mechanism which can prevent that, everybody is prone to immoral behavior it's just a matter of chance.

What we now need is an exchange where people can use the multisig transaction mechanisms to trade bitcoin for fiat money. That may not be straight forward to do convenient, that's why we have to think how to make bitcoin better not try to debate the issue away.

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September 11, 2012, 09:30:50 PM
 #69

But would you want bitcoin to become mainstream in its current state?

Yes.

I think that bitcoin is not mature enough to hit mainstream for several reasons.
Just one of those reasons is the increasing scams and robberies.
At the moment a large part of the bitcoin community consists of immature gamblers and that is also why you read so many negative things. There are a lot of negative things going on and everyone seems to want to make a quick buck.
And it needs to be discussed and it needs to be fixed for bitcoin to grow further.
I just don't see bitcoin being used by the mainstream with exchanges being hacked left and right and 7% per week schemes rising from the ground without being dealt with.

Bitcoin isn't responsible for scams and robberies. Users are. If you know how to fix human nature, by all means share with the rest of us!

If Bitcoins can be used to buy and sell goods and services locally, it would "fix" most of the problems you are discussing. The legitimate trade would far outweigh the occasional scam. People could use Bitcoin at places they've been customers with for decades.

We cannot fix that and you know it.
So the only known solution is to make the system as good as possible at preventing scams and robberies.

I don't think that legitimate trade will grow much faster than scams.
I also think that local use of bitcoin is pretty limited.
If you trust the person then the currency becomes irrelevant.
You could, for instance, use tokens or poker chips.
This is not the strong part of bitcoin altho in this role it functions just as well as anything.
So in my opinion there is not much drive for it to be used in that way.

The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.
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September 11, 2012, 09:31:43 PM
 #70

Bitcoin should stick to what it's good at - providing secure and efficient currency through cryptography and distributed networking.
That is fast, cheap, irreversible payments, light-weight wallets which can be used in your local shop, multisign escrow, ...

The community should get more mature and civilised.
Am I right here there were some 50 pages in MNW thread? About a guy who bet, lost, refused to pay, thinking how cool he is? Imo anyone posting beyond the 5th page should be labeled a troll.
Also apparently there exist some people who invested into Pirate's magic funds and now come weeping. There is no way they were not warned before. As Pirate is labeled a scammer, those folks should be labeled dorks.
Also Bitcoin is not another wild west as people are unlikely to build a new virtual justice system. If the existing justice system doesn't protect your schemes, then you should just think of some additional means of security (or give up the schemes). For example, at the moment any public lending should be discouraged because the lenders have got only minimal legal protection. And surely people shouldn't try to make justice by paying a detective and then taking a vote about lynching.
Also the community should make clear their negative stance on matters that are illegal: arms trade, illegal substances trade, money laundering, last but not least scamming and ponzis.
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September 11, 2012, 09:35:11 PM
 #71

Scams are best prevented by systematic security, anything else is just icing on the cake.
This, altho i do think that we need to apply the icing generously nevertheless...
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September 11, 2012, 09:44:38 PM
 #72

Scams are best prevented by systematic security, anything else is just icing on the cake.
This, altho i do think that we need to apply the icing generously nevertheless...


Yeah it's always good to make it as tasty as possible Smiley

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September 11, 2012, 09:48:28 PM
 #73

The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.

See, I feel differently. The really COOL thing about Bitcoin is that it's decentralized, that there is a known number of total coins, and that no "authority" can ever confiscate or "freeze" my coins.

That I can send it over a distance is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but that has no mainstream po-ten-tial.
Bender said it.
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September 11, 2012, 10:12:17 PM
 #74

The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.

See, I feel differently. The really COOL thing about Bitcoin is that it's decentralized, that there is a known number of total coins, and that no "authority" can ever confiscate or "freeze" my coins.

That I can send it over a distance is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but that has no mainstream po-ten-tial.
Bender said it.

Oh? I think it does.

So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all they think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?



Realy?..
Severian
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September 11, 2012, 10:15:26 PM
 #75

So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all you think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?

Bitcoin means never having PayPal freeze your account again. That would be a plus for the mainstream user.
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September 11, 2012, 10:18:26 PM
 #76

So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all you think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?

Bitcoin means never having PayPal freeze your account again. That would be a plus for the mainstream user.
That's true enough and paypal should just go away.
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.
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September 11, 2012, 10:21:22 PM
 #77

And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
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September 11, 2012, 10:33:40 PM
 #78

And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.

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September 11, 2012, 10:34:53 PM
 #79

The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.

See, I feel differently. The really COOL thing about Bitcoin is that it's decentralized, that there is a known number of total coins, and that no "authority" can ever confiscate or "freeze" my coins.

That I can send it over a distance is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but that has no mainstream po-ten-tial.
Bender said it.

Oh? I think it does.

So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all they think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?



Realy?..


Most people don't think that now, but with the government printing more and more money whenever they want to "save the economy LOL" its only a matter of time before fiat money is so worthless that people will look for an alternative.

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September 11, 2012, 10:35:52 PM
 #80

And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.



Yeah, see , I thought so. You don't really believe in bitcoin do you? Youre just here to troll

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