Greek referendum

[Erdogan]

Thanks, keep us informed.

[johnyj]

A principle of most societies is that if you borrow money, then you must repay it to the lender. The Greeks reject this principle.

This principle does not apply to countries, since their central bank can always create money for government to borrow and repay the debt. However, by joining EMU, Greece gave up the right of money creation, thus become heavily debt laden, this is their mistake

In fact, if you look deeper into this principle, you will find out that central banks are always exempt from this principle, because they could always create money and repay the debt as wish. If Greece defaults, ECB will just print some money to cover the hole

Remember that Rothschild said: "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws"

And this one suits the situation even better:
"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests."

In fact, the great majority of people are incapable of comprehending the tremendous unfavorable condition set by today's monetary system, and they even appreciate it and worship banks and blame those who can not return the loan (It is impossible to repay all the loan in today's monetary system, if someone managed to do that, others will be more heavily debt laden)

[Erdogan]

A principle of most societies is that if you borrow money, then you must repay it to the lender. The Greeks reject this principle.

This principle does not apply to countries, since their central bank can always create money for government to borrow and repay the debt. However, by joining EMU, Greece gave up the right of money creation, thus become heavily debt laden, this is their mistake

In fact, if you look deeper into this principle, you will find out that central banks are always exempt from this principle, because they could always create money and repay the debt as wish. If Greece defaults, ECB will just print some money to cover the hole

Remember that Rothschild said: "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws"

And this one suits the situation even better:
"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests."

In fact, the great majority of people are incapable of comprehending the tremendous unfavorable condition set by today's monetary system, and they even appreciate it and worship banks and blame those who can not return the loan (It is impossible to repay all the loan in today's monetary system, if someone managed to do that, others will be more heavily debt laden)

The debt can be paid back or it can be written off. But if this happens, all the losses will be exposed, and we will have a debt deflation. Both is bad for politicians.

[Erdogan]

I think there's a discontinuity in logic when it comes to Greece defaulting = exit from Eurozone. The Eurozone has no official laws for throwing a member out, and it would be beneficial to Greece to stay on the Euro especially during rough times. Greece is obviously going to default, but they will probably stay on the Euro. The Euro will have a crisis though.

I think being in the eurozone means that the country is a member of different institutions like the ECB, the eurogroup,  their banks are policed by ECB, they have access to the ELA, and the TARGET2 system. So they might be thrown out of those systems. The people living within Greece may continue to use euro notes and coins without asking. Don't know about bank accounts, may be not. They could possibly use eruo accounts in foreign banks, unless the state get in the way. The state accounting, I guess they could still use euro, and use accounts in foreign banks. The greek central bank could exist, I suppose, but they would not be able to do alot. Maybe help with deposit insurance.

[Erdogan]

Being stupid as they are (the government of greece) they would probably try to establish a new fiat, but it is futile, they would only be able to steal value corresponding to five billion euros or so out of that system, after that it will collapse.

[Erdogan]

Hopefully they can stay in the eurozone, even with a government default and banks in the gutter. Maybe they can make some special rules for the greek, like don't care anymore about government surplus or deficit, and let (new) greek banks just take care of themselves.

[Erdogan]

Hopefully they can stay in the eurozone, even with a government default and banks in the gutter. Maybe they can make some special rules for the greek, like don't care anymore about government surplus or deficit, and let (new) greek banks just take care of themselves.

No. Relatively sound money, a government spending only taxes, banks held in check by the market. Too good to be true.

[johnyj]

The debt can be paid back or it can be written off. But if this happens, all the losses will be exposed, and we will have a debt deflation. Both is bad for politicians.

If the debt is written off, ECB will not get their money back, but their money was created out of nothing anyway. But that might cause a large scale of default from many other southern European countries, and that will hurt the banks' plan: Those money out of thin air should belong to banks but if everyone is like Greece, just borrow and spend those money, then they are actually printing money for Greece! Banks should only print money for themselves, everyone else should borrow from them and pay an interest, that's the plan  

I guess if Greece somehow get out of EMU and start to print money for themselves, their economy will be improved very quickly. And that's ECB scared of, because other countries in EMU will follow suit

[wpalczynski]

The debt can be paid back or it can be written off. But if this happens, all the losses will be exposed, and we will have a debt deflation. Both is bad for politicians.

If the debt is written off, ECB will not get their money back, but their money was created out of nothing anyway. But that might cause a large scale of default from many other southern European countries, and that will hurt the banks' plan: Those money out of thin air should belong to banks but if everyone is like Greece, just borrow and spend those money, then they are actually printing money for Greece! Banks should only print money for themselves, everyone else should borrow from them and pay an interest, that's the plan  

I guess if Greece somehow get out of EMU and start to print money for themselves, their problem will be solved very quickly. And that's ECB scared of, because other countries in EMU will follow suit

Fractional reserve banking is a fraud.  A legally sanctioned fraud.

[bryant.coleman]

So it is confirmed. The Greek referendum will occur on 5th July. The MPs voted 179 vs 121, in favor of conducting the referendum. Actually it was funny to notice that the far-right Golden Dawn party, voted with the extreme-left SYRIZA in favor of conducting the referendum.

FOR (179):
SYRIZA - 149
Golden Dawn - 17
ANEL - 13

AGAINST (121):

ND - 76
Potami - 17
KKE - 15
PASOK - 13

[qiwoman2]

Greece is going into bankruptcy. This referendum is not legal, and after the fact, window dressing.  The Eurozone will be stronger after Greece.

Now we can move on, there are big things to do to move the project forward. Eu is not standing still.

EU will be stronger after cutting away dead weight (Greece), but how will they get their money back and who will enforce the payback ?
As far as i can tell, people are about to go frenzy over there, and it wont end well.

cheers

A principle of most societies is that if you borrow money, then you must repay it to the lender. The Greeks reject this principle.

That is the crux of the problem.

To fix this problem, Berlin and Paris should expel Athens from the Euro zone. The member states of the European Union should also expel Greece from that club.

Can't get the money back but at least after a few decades in the wilderness (in which the Greeks live lives worse than, say, Belorussians), the Greeks will mend their ways.

I agree, Greece should leave the Eurozone but not for the above reasons..Europe is like a huge dictator that is eroding each country's sovereignty..Why do you think the Brits want to leave? Do you know Greece had a huge cotton and silk industry? Light manufacturing arms etc? All this has gone because of the EU..Now they want to destroy Greece's Tourism industry as well.. It's just another united states of Germany.. Greece unfortunately had a few rich families of corrupt politicians who brainwashed the Masses into believing they could live on debt forever..which we all know is not sustainable..So the Wolves managed to eat many unsuspecting sheep..This is why I keep ramming down the same message to the Greeks..WAKE UP, USE YOUR BRAINS AND HANDS and rebuild your country yourselves, stop waiting to be spoon fed by sharks and wolves that will make you eat each other in the end..because this is the real end game, to create another civil war in Greece so Germany and other countries can pick up the rebuilding contracts.. One thing Greeks have to learn is taking responsibility for our actions..We can;'t keep blaming the Ottoman Turks, or the Nazis or even the EU Bosses..We have to take our fate into our own hands and reshape our history.. That is something only the Greeks can do and if they don't do it, they will just have another master whipping them, if it isn't the EU...it will be someone else..

Also I have to admit KAMMENOS Head of ANEL gave a wicked speech..I liked it..

[qiwoman2]

The debt can be paid back or it can be written off. But if this happens, all the losses will be exposed, and we will have a debt deflation. Both is bad for politicians.

If the debt is written off, ECB will not get their money back, but their money was created out of nothing anyway. But that might cause a large scale of default from many other southern European countries, and that will hurt the banks' plan: Those money out of thin air should belong to banks but if everyone is like Greece, just borrow and spend those money, then they are actually printing money for Greece! Banks should only print money for themselves, everyone else should borrow from them and pay an interest, that's the plan  

I guess if Greece somehow get out of EMU and start to print money for themselves, their problem will be solved very quickly. And that's ECB scared of, because other countries in EMU will follow suit

Fractional reserve banking is a fraud.  A legally sanctioned fraud.

Agreed and this is why Greeks need to start looking for an alternative..I sent my solution to Varoufakis but don't know if he ever had time to read it lol. Greece should stop clicnging to the EURO like God and create it's own fiscal mechanism, but that can only work if the Judicial System, Tax System and whole population gets educated on how they should love their country and not milk it dry to the ground. In schools they should be teaching fiscal responsibility from a young age..What debt means, what the fractional banking system is, what alternatives, like crypto, are like out there..This should be mandatory..without fiscal education, the next generation is well and trully f*cked, excuse my french.. Let's see what the Ministry of corruption will pull out of its hat. 

[qiwoman2]

Greece is going into bankruptcy. This referendum is not legal, and after the fact, window dressing.  The Eurozone will be stronger after Greece.

Now we can move on, there are big things to do to move the project forward. Eu is not standing still.

EU will be stronger after cutting away dead weight (Greece), but how will they get their money back and who will enforce the payback ?
As far as i can tell, people are about to go frenzy over there, and it wont end well.

cheers

A principle of most societies is that if you borrow money, then you must repay it to the lender. The Greeks reject this principle.

That is the crux of the problem.

To fix this problem, Berlin and Paris should expel Athens from the Euro zone. The member states of the European Union should also expel Greece from that club.

Can't get the money back but at least after a few decades in the wilderness (in which the Greeks live lives worse than, say, Belorussians), the Greeks will mend their ways.

Oh Yeah? So why were Germany's debts written off after WW2 and why hasn't GERMANY PAID BACK WAR REPARATIONS AND THE DEBT THEY took form Greece? They ransacked all of the gold reserves calling it AN OCCUPATION LOAN that has still not been paid back..and yes I agree Greece was stupid to enter the EU in the first place, with such a corrupt political system in place at that time, it wasn't ready..

BIG MOTTO of this story is stop taking out unsustainable loans, start building your lives on what you have..if you need to take out a small business loan make sure you pay it back, get into profit before ever borrowing more to expand..personally NOT BORROWING ANYTHING AT ALL is the best policy for success, in private life or in business, live within our means and build from there..

[electerium]

I think calling for vote is a cheap and bad way to throw off responsibility for the situation to come. Almost every time people will vote against changes that will force them to lower their living standards. So Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras is making an easy way out of this for himself, if people vote against and Greece will fall he will say "it's not my fault", if Greeks vote for and it will cause some sort of unrest he will say "you voted for those conditions so now don't complain"

you are grossly mis-interpreting the actual will & sentiment of the greek people. Tsipras is not going to present his parliament or his people with a deal that he knows cannot be passed. That would be laughable and career and political suicide. There will be 0 probability of ramming through a deal that the public doesnt support. Since the two sides are vastly apart (on tax, and pensions) its a non-starter at this point, Tsipras knows that he cannot ever gain enough momentum or votes.

By calling a referendum he will allow the greek people to decide its fate, not politicians, bankers, or the elite. The entirety of the greek people will decide what is acceptable. The original bailout never went to the people. It went straight into the central bankers to provide the greek financial system with liquidity. That is where a lot of this mis-trust comes from. The greek people are immovable on pensions, absolutely immovable because of this. They are very jaded by the original bailout, which did not provide enough actual economic stimulus but rather liquidity into the financial banking system.

This is simply a final end game for greek in this era.

[Liquid71]

In the end (i cannot speak very good english)

the mosts money went to politicians (THEY GOD EVERYTHING). Every person that takes this country's leadership doen't take them to courts and jail. They are out playing with the rest of us. And we hav to pay for the money they got.. We, our children, and our childrens children...

in my oppinion if a few years(1 year maybe or less), we will be the worst economical country all over the planet. !!!

no it wont be the worst economical country. without the Euro you will be free again and maybe in 10 years things will be better. but now there will start some tough times i think.

look at argentina. they did this twice in 10-15 years time span.

If Greece Defaults, Imagine Argentina, but Much Worse
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/business/an-echo-of-argentina-in-greek-debt-crisis.html

Greece has no exports, they will suffer worse than Argentina.

Leaving the Euro for the Drachma makes as much sense as the existence of Litecoin 

[Liquid71]

I think calling for vote is a cheap and bad way to throw off responsibility for the situation to come. Almost every time people will vote against changes that will force them to lower their living standards. So Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras is making an easy way out of this for himself, if people vote against and Greece will fall he will say "it's not my fault", if Greeks vote for and it will cause some sort of unrest he will say "you voted for those conditions so now don't complain"

you are grossly mis-interpreting the actual will & sentiment of the greek people. Tsipras is not going to present his parliament or his people with a deal that he knows cannot be passed. That would be laughable and career and political suicide. There will be 0 probability of ramming through a deal that the public doesnt support. Since the two sides are vastly apart (on tax, and pensions) its a non-starter at this point, Tsipras knows that he cannot ever gain enough momentum or votes.

By calling a referendum he will allow the greek people to decide its fate, not politicians, bankers, or the elite. The entirety of the greek people will decide what is acceptable. The original bailout never went to the people. It went straight into the central bankers to provide the greek financial system with liquidity. That is where a lot of this mis-trust comes from. The greek people are immovable on pensions, absolutely immovable because of this. They are very jaded by the original bailout, which did not provide enough actual economic stimulus but rather liquidity into the financial banking system.

This is simply a final end game for greek in this era.

If he genuinely wanted the citizens to have the final say he wouldn't have waited until the last minute, and then set the date for the referendum after it's too late to prevent a default.
The guys a communist and he's been playing this game for 5 months, so he can leave the Euro and blame the economic crisis on the EU and join Russia and China.

[bryant.coleman]

Greece has no exports, they will suffer worse than Argentina.

Greeks export billions of €€€ worth of agricultural products to other European countries (esp. olive, cheese, cotton, wheat, and citrus fruits). Also, Greece is one of the largest exporters of pharmaceutical drugs in the world. And another fact to consider here is that the tourism sector is quite big in Greece, with most of the tourists coming from the non-EU nations.

[Searing]

why stay in EU and just kick the can down the road...they can do the EU austerity plan and prop up the banks etc and lose their gov't services pensions etc
probably accumulating more debt for the future if not generations to prop up EU bankers and not hurt the richer EU countries with a loss

or

they can say screw it and lose 50% of the countries value go into deep recession or depression and lose all the above to REALITY

and eventually in a few years move on

the current setup for Greek payback looks like a 17th century debtor's prison ....you can't pay we will make your kids pay in the future etc no way out for Greece except
default imho

screwed in debt and the battle is lost with no way out .....what does Greece care if they add to the Paper debt 2x 3x due to default theythe amount in penalties if they can never

pay it back  anyway..hell what I can tell they would never be able to pay back the interest at this rate

Hell I'd walk from this deal too...they can take the pain now or just string it out for the next decade or more WITH NO CLEAR IDEA if it would make any difference anyway
with the interest accumulated on these loans with the conditions of banks etc...could do best efforts imho and 10 years from now show NO PROGRESS AT ALL except
kept the EU banks afloat and the EU politicians happy

Hell ARGENTINA has defaulted MORE THEN ONCE to get out of such dire straits as Greece..they seem to have gotten by

again I'd walk to and take my lumps now if I was in Greece too ...dealing with being dirt poor in REALITY is a lot better then this fantasy that these bankers and
the EU are looking after Greek interests etc and would not just string this out for years and years....as a Greek politican you can point to 'reality' we are all in this
together .....with the EU deal you get the same results and point to What? We are still screwed from a bad deal?

reality ..i get ..dealing with assholes and still having the reality of the situation the same ..FU again I'd walk too


heh just wait RUSSIA will a come a calling ..you want to join our somewhat 'lame' Russian Economic Federation (or whatever it is called) Iran ..if they have sanctions removed
you want some help for oil

the truth is Greece will have some pain and it will be ugly ...but they will come out of this just fine imho

(of course I'd like to see BTC in this mix ..but still even w/o)

[countryfree]

That referendum, if there's one, is a huge waste of money. Funny how the government is saying it cannot afford to repay what it owes but it still has cash to organize a referendum, something which cannot be done cheaply. Just like last week, when the Greeks are known to be the worst tax collectors in the world, they said they will raise tax to repay their loans. If this was the solution, I wonder why this wasn't done earlier.

I wouldn't buy an used car from Tsipras.

[bryant.coleman]

That referendum, if there's one, is a huge waste of money.

The proposed referendum will cost about €10 million, which amounts to less than 0.1% of the annual debt repayment.

Just like last week, when the Greeks are known to be the worst tax collectors in the world, they said they will raise tax to repay their loans.

Last week, they said that they are ready to raise taxes on certain sectors, but resisted from doing the same across the board. The troika wanted them to impose a VAT increase on all the goods, while the Greeks refused to do that on medicines and certain other items.