Greek referendum

[Erdogan]

It looks like they (the people) are set at keeping the pensions, and the other elements of the welfare state.

If so, there are two outcomes:

1) They go full tilt stalin including hunger, disease, concentration camps.

2) The EU give them all that they want.

The third way, which is freedom and prosperity, is off the table for now.

[wpalczynski]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live

Capital controls imposed, bank holiday.

[pereira4]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live

Capital controls imposed, bank holiday.

Yeah i saw Tsipras in television talking about it. There will be a temporal bailout starting tomorrow... this was so obvious that it was coming. Anyone that gets caught with the money stuck on the banks it's their fault, they had plenty of time to withdraw and convert to Bitcoin or Gold if you are old.

[dinofelis]

Greece is going into bankruptcy. This referendum is not legal, and after the fact, window dressing.  The Eurozone will be stronger after Greece.

Now we can move on, there are big things to do to move the project forward. Eu is not standing still.

EU will be stronger after cutting away dead weight (Greece), but how will they get their money back and who will enforce the payback ?
As far as i can tell, people are about to go frenzy over there, and it wont end well.

cheers

I think most EU members already took their loss.   The point is not so much to get their money back.  The point is to have states having their balances in order, or almost so.  You cannot have a Swedish-style social coverage if you have a Greek-style economy.  If you finance social "security" on deficit spending, for a while you're living on other people's efforts in the EU zone, and in the end it blows in your face.  We can't have the southern half of Europe have a social system living on the production of the northern half of Europe and at the same time have souvereign states deciding on how they collect taxes and so on.
No solidarity is possible if there is independence of decision, because that's a ticket for free riders.

[dinofelis]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live

Capital controls imposed, bank holiday.

Yeah i saw Tsipras in television talking about it. There will be a temporal bailout starting tomorrow... this was so obvious that it was coming. Anyone that gets caught with the money stuck on the banks it's their fault, they had plenty of time to withdraw and convert to Bitcoin or Gold if you are old.

One should not make the confusion between the ECB sending Euros to Greek banks, and a bailout.  One has nothing to do with another.  As long as banks are solvent (that is, they have a balance of their outstanding deposit accounts, and their assets, such as mortgages and so on), there is absolutely no problem in exchanging bank money for central bank money.   When a customer of a bank withdraws Euros, his account is debited by the same amount.  An amount of bank money is destroyed that way (bank money is money on a deposit account), and an amount of central bank money is issued that way.  Normally, the bank had its balance right, and the bank money had its counterparty in a bank asset.  That asset is then transferred to the ECB, to "pay" for the withdrawal.

At no point, the exchange of bank money in central bank money implies a transfer of goods and services, and at no point, this causes any inflationary pressure, as as much money is destroyed (bank money) as money was created (ECB money).

[dinofelis]

It looks like they (the people) are set at keeping the pensions, and the other elements of the welfare state.

If so, there are two outcomes:

1) They go full tilt stalin including hunger, disease, concentration camps.

2) The EU give them all that they want.

The third way, which is freedom and prosperity, is off the table for now.

Amen.

[dinofelis]

That referendum, if there's one, is a huge waste of money.

In politics, everything is possible.  But I wonder what the question will be for the referendum, given that the EU offer is not valid anymore.  The bailout program has been stopped and finished, as the conditions have not been met.  There is no offer from the EU anymore right now.  So when the Greek will vote "yes", it will be "yes, you should have agreed when the proposition was still on the table, but now it isn't anymore".

[cogabonito]

Hell no. Greece is bigger than Eurozone (not financial or geographical though).

[Eastwind]

The Greek banks will close tomorrow and there will be capital controls.

[qiwoman2]

Greece is going into bankruptcy. This referendum is not legal, and after the fact, window dressing.  The Eurozone will be stronger after Greece.

Now we can move on, there are big things to do to move the project forward. Eu is not standing still.

EU will be stronger after cutting away dead weight (Greece), but how will they get their money back and who will enforce the payback ?
As far as i can tell, people are about to go frenzy over there, and it wont end well.

cheers

I think most EU members already took their loss.   The point is not so much to get their money back.  The point is to have states having their balances in order, or almost so.  You cannot have a Swedish-style social coverage if you have a Greek-style economy.  If you finance social "security" on deficit spending, for a while you're living on other people's efforts in the EU zone, and in the end it blows in your face.  We can't have the southern half of Europe have a social system living on the production of the northern half of Europe and at the same time have souvereign states deciding on how they collect taxes and so on.
No solidarity is possible if there is independence of decision, because that's a ticket for free riders.

Not necessarily true..Yes Greece had a corrupt judicial and political system, yes Greeks lived beyond their means because the were brainwashed by the powers to be to do so and Yes Greeks were told to borrow to buy german cars, leave the villages to go to the big towns and cities to get so called stable jobs..all this was a huge fiasco and the greek peeps bought it..The main agenda was to create a slavery of peripheral states that would import all the good from Northern Europe..this killed light Industry in Greece, not to mention the tax evasion by the rich and all the elite taking their money out instead of investing it in their own country..Capital controls now should be imposed like China..like no Yuan leaving China without proper inspection, so should Greece stop the flow of money outwards unless for something to benefit the country.. Everyone must take responsibility for this chaos, mainly the Ruling Elite and Mass media for misinforming the less prosperous and educated on good fiscal policy.. The average Greek now needs to get educated on basic fiscal analysis and economics, there is no way around this.if you stay ignorant you get eaten by the wolves and whales.. Greece made the big mistake buying ninja mortgage derivatives from Morgan Stanley. This is what created the main crisis along with the corruption of the PASOK AND NEW DEMOCRACY PARTY Bosses and their cronies.. They did squat for the average joe in Greece, all they did was embezzle millions along with their families and take their monies out to swiss banks, hence the christine lagarde LIST of black money taken out that is now under scrutiny.. BIG LESSON HERE IS LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS, DON'T BORROW A CENT OF INTEREST BEARING LOANS, WORK HARD AND BUILD YOUR OWN FUTURE, DON'T WAIT FOR OTHERS TO SPOON FEED YOU..My message to everyone including our Greek Peeps across the waters.. oh and diversify your assets, that's a MUST..

[alani123]

Syriza openly urges Greeks to vote no. Varoufakis hints that they'll step off from government and support their successors if the outcome of the vote is yes. Madness...

[Moebius327]

This is SPARTA!

[Erdogan]

The Greek banks will close tomorrow and there will be capital controls.

And it should really be called currency controls currency movement controls. I rather doubt they would stop someone exporting the olives.

[wpalczynski]

The Greek banks will close tomorrow and there will be capital controls.

And it should really be called currency controls currency movement controls. I rather doubt they would stop someone exporting the olives.

No more than 60lbs of olives a day.

[thaaanos]

The referendum was needed imho to end the neverending draging of he negotiations while situation in greece deteriorates. It will also force troika and greek gov to find common ground in a time bounded process. Both parties are (in reality) interested in campaining for a Yes (provided an updated deal). However a No will mark the point of no retreat for *any* Greek Gov, then it will be up to Troika to either cave in or expel Greece from EZ.
Troikas response was breaking greak banks.

In any way the moment Troika scare itself at the lenght they will go to enforce their terms, they are done

[Erdogan]

The troikas offer is also not sustainable, so if they take it, they will have the same problem later, and there will be contagion to other countries.

So the situation is not good.

[johnyj]

It will be a good opportunity for people to re-think many critical questions during this abnormal time:

1. Is it possible for every individual in a country to become richer (e.g. pay back their debt and have some saving) without increase the total debt level of the whole country?

2. Who are the beneficiaries of the increased debt, and who are the ones that get hurt the most?

[bryant.coleman]

Yeah i saw Tsipras in television talking about it. There will be a temporal bailout starting tomorrow... this was so obvious that it was coming. Anyone that gets caught with the money stuck on the banks it's their fault, they had plenty of time to withdraw and convert to Bitcoin or Gold if you are old.

As per the latest estimates, some €130 billion to €135 billion worth of funds are remaining in the Greek savings accounts as of now. So that means that less than 50% of the funds were withdrawn during the last 6 months or so. I wouldn't blame the Greeks who didn't withdraw their savings. The haircut might be 5% or 10% this time, rather than the rate of 85% imposed on the Cypriot depositors.

[scarsbergholden]

what would happen if the Greek take that 12billion euro and buy bitcoin with it ? would we see the first decentralize bailout money economy and what would be the price of bitcoin if the buy at lease 50% of the 12b

[qiwoman2]

what would happen if the Greek take that 12billion euro and buy bitcoin with it ? would we see the first decentralize bailout money economy and what would be the price of bitcoin if the buy at lease 50% of the 12b

Greeks should stay calm but saying that they need to try to diversify their assets as much as possible. This is common investment sense and also not panic. The banks being closed until after the referendum is a positive move in my books.  Until Greeks make their ultimate choice there should be calm and level headed thinking now and the first thing to be done after whatever outcome comes to pass is to educate the people about good fiscal management. Until that day happens you will still see this mentality fo spending more than one's earning happening all over again. Unfortunately America tried to sell the so called AMERICAN DREAM to the Greeks after the 2nd world war but it has backfired so now the greeks have to dig deep inside themselves and look for a Greek solution to the problem and one that smells of common sense not hyped up American Bullsh*t. Also boycott imports from the countries that are hurting Greece most, until they behave and give Greece back it's sovereignty.. You want your money back? Well we stop buying your german cars and what not lol, we will start producing our own..That's what the Greeks should do lol.