is butterfly labs mining with those ASICs at the moment?

[YokoToriyama]

there could be a testing phase in a real world situation going on here.
if they do make the money back on the hardware that means they
can order more parts to make more mining equipment.

self replenishment.

[1714975100]

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[1714975100]

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[1714975100]

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[jojo69]

there are at least 2 other outfits racing BFL to bring ASIC to market, and BFL is still shipping FPGA hardware daily

the hash, it increases, we know not from where

its everywhere man

[Transisto]

I've been watching the charts and the increase in total computation speed seems a bit excessive even at current exchange prices.  Take a look. They're nuts!  It seems to have shot up significantly right around the time that Butterfly Labs would be mass testing some of their 7000+ pre-ordered ASIC chips.  Hmmmmm ...

May I ask what increase you're talking about ? what graph you're looking at ? http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png ?

What is : "...the time that Butterfly Labs would be mass testing" ?

[Desolator]

If there's nothing shadier than what's on the surface, I really don't have a problem with them mining with them.  It makes perfect sense.  If there's some sort of planned obsolescence going on, that I'd have a problem with but they're doing a trade in so it doesn't seem like their style.  If they're planning to outmine everyone after the orders are filled, that would be pretty bad lol.

Btw if there has indeed been no major shift between who solves which coins compared to each other, they could be multi-pooling to hide it or just not running as many as I think.  Who knows.  It's just too unbelievably stupid to not make a quick $100 off each card for a week before shipping them.

You know, the average laptop manufacturer gets $42 for preloading all the ebay links and norton demos and BS utilities and free trial crap.  Companies like Norton pay them big bucks to preload their software in hopes that full versions or demo extensions will be bought, and they are cuz people are lazy.  I think it's pretty shady but hey, $42 off a laptop lol.  So if the cards cost like $175 to manufacture and they mine with each for a week before shipping it and then sell for $149, that's fine with me Just lowered my price.  They do obviously have to stop mining when they turn off the card and ship it to you so they're not directly competing, except for X amount that they have mining at any given time.  Still, it's saving you money up front.

oh and to transisto, I mean the 6000 GH/s up from the end of July on that website.  And I based butterfly labs' timeline on gaming console release times since they're followed like hawks on Engadget and Slashdot.  When Microsoft makes a release date for the Xbox 360 for example, it means they're boxing for 4-5 weeks ahead of that date, shipping a few days before it, testing individual units for 2-3 weeks before both of those, testing initial demo units like 6 months even earlier, etc.  So with Butterfly labs' anticipated release date, they would have had quite a few assembled and in their hands in early to mid August.  The most money can be made while nobody but them as an ASIC obviously They do still have to beat their competition though, as someone pointed out.  The fact that other companies are making ASIC chips is awesome because without any competition, they'd be selling for $400 and be released 6 months from now

[Transisto]

If there's nothing shadier than what's on the surface, I really don't have a problem with them mining with them.  It makes perfect sense.  If there's some sort of planned obsolescence going on, that I'd have a problem with but they're doing a trade in so it doesn't seem like their style......
...

The fact that other companies are making ASIC chips is awesome because without any competition, they'd be selling for $400 and be released 6 months from now

Many of us have sold bitcoin at 5-6$ to pre-order into the first batch, so yes there is something very wrong with them mining with our hardware.  They have specificaly stated they would not, I don't know why you are so happy with it and finding this "normal" business behavior.

They will most likely be selling ASICs at a huge profit once they've covered their fixed cost. There is nothing forcing them to accept trade-in or refund of past ASICs once they release much cheaper ASICs. They don't give any kind of price protection and I am very concerned by this.

What 400$ ?  Their 150$ jalapeno is a non-issue and their actual competitive SC miners start at 1200$ and 30k$

[Desolator]

When the first FPGA I saw came out, it was 400MHs and around $600.  There was zero competition.  To a certain extent, making a chip is making a chip so the fact that these are $149 is amazing.  But with 2 more companies breathing down their necks with similar ASICs, tada, it's $149.  I'm just saying if those 2 competing companies weren't out there, charging $400 instead of $149 for something that runs at 3500MH/s would be perfectly acceptable to most people so they would.  In fact, they could probably get $800.

[SgtSpike]

[Shadow383]

+1

[notme]

i would do it too.
this is where ethics will come in to play.
IF BFL truly wants BTC to succeed, they will never run enough units to take over 51% of the hashing power at any one point.
Also, they WOULD take the profits from the mining, no doubt. But considering the magnitude of profits, i believe they would donate a sizable chunk to various bitcoin related projects, ( that is IF they want bitcoin to succeed on a larger scale )

they would not run more than a certain limited number of units at a time.
they would not run them any longer than required to ensure that they are working fine and will not malfunction after shipping.

the question here is, how ethical is BFL?

If BFL truly wants BTC to succeed, running 51%+ hashing power is no problem.  In fact, the only way to guarantee against a 51% attack is to know who controls more than half the network.  If that entity is you, and you are honest (follow the standard rules), no attack is possible.

If BFL just sees BTC as an means to an end, then we may have a problem.

[axus]

Botnets.  Once all the gaming computers in China have been pwned, the rate will stop increasing.

[aqrulesms]

I have no idea why he concludes that this is due to BFL testing ASICs.

The graph closely relates to the price of bitcoins, which can be the reason more people are mining.

Bitcoin has also received large growth so it's not surprising actually to see the hash rate increase that much.  It's inevitable with so much profitability.

[smoothie]

I would not say that it doesn't make sense until an ASIC is proven to exist.

They better!  They have $1 mil in pre-orders for them, lol.

I don't think it's up to me saying how much he has now. I do know though.

:-O

OMG I LOLed so hard haha! I'm am Potatorpheius

[Stephen Gornick]

I would not say that it doesn't make sense until an ASIC is proven to exist.

Though many are claiming "soon"

From the Bitcoin wiki:

ASICs

As of September 18, 2012 there are no ASIC products shipping yet and no ASICs used in mining, at least nothing that has been publicly announced.
The vendors and products announced include:

-----------------
* Butterfly Labs (BFL)
** BitForce SC - Availability: First shipments from "possibly late October" ranging to "before Christmas 2012". Over 35 THash/s has been pre-ordered. Discussion

*** BitForce Jalapeno - 3.5 Ghash/s for $149 Pre-sale order
*** BitForce Single 'SC' - 40 Ghash/s for $1,299 Pre-sale order
*** BitForce Mini Rig 'SC' 1,000 Ghash/s for $29,899 Pre-sale order

-----------------
* BitcoinASIC.com
** bASIC - Availability: n/a. Discussion

*** Model: bASIC01 27 Ghash/s for $1,070 Pre-sale order

-----------------
* ngzhang
** Avalon - Availability: First 300 units (pre-orders), December 2012. Full production: February 2013. Discussion

*** Avalon 60 Ghash/s for $1,299 (pre-order), $1,999 (after first 300 units sold)

-----------------
* DeepBit
** Reclaimer - Availability: n/a Discussion

*** Reclaimer One 4Ghash/s for $320 (1 Ghash/s bonds redeemable for hardware traded on ICBIT)
*** Reclaimer 4A 8 Ghash/s for $520 (1 Ghash/s bonds redeemable for hardware traded on ICBIT)
*** Reclaimer RM 80 Ghash/s for $2,800 (1 Ghash/s bonds redeemable for hardware traded on ICBIT)

-----------------
* ASICMINER
** ASICMINER will not be selling hardware to the public and instead will supply ASICs to MOORE mining. Shares of both ASICMINER and MOORE are sold on GLBSE. Availability: Not disclosed. Discussion

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#ASICs

[Desolator]

Though many are claiming "soon"

:O I...I...I just can't not post it!

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/soon

lol

SOOOOOON!



Yeah, I loled mega hard at potato morpheus the first time I saw him.  I seriously had some kind of attack or something from laughing too hard so now I'm dead and totally ghost posting.  Anyway, Morpheus comes in quite handy Like for example:



My business plan for butterfly labs would be somewhat simple
1. Plug in devices we made
2. hit go
3. $$$$$$$$

Seriously, the only question right now is how many they're actually running and thus how much of that gigantic mining power spike is them.

[Transisto]

When the first FPGA I saw came out, it was 400MHs and around $600.  There was zero competition.  To a certain extent, making a chip is making a chip so the fact that these are $149 is amazing.  But with 2 more companies breathing down their necks with similar ASICs, tada, it's $149.  I'm just saying if those 2 competing companies weren't out there, charging $400 instead of $149 for something that runs at 3500MH/s would be perfectly acceptable to most people so they would.  In fact, they could probably get $800.

However you want to phrase it, BFL has always been at the forefront of disruptive product announcement.

You have your cause - effect on pricing backward.

I've read all of your posts here and it's baseless, wrong and speculative all the way.

[makomk]

However you want to phrase it, BFL has always been at the forefront of disruptive product announcement.

Yeah, they managed to hugely disrupt the market of FPGA boards that could actually be built by announcing impossible specs for their Bitforce Singles and again by pre-announcing their ASIC line with equally impressive specifications. Now, disruptive products, that they haven't been so good at so far.

[Grouver (BtcBalance)]

Josh told me that the owner of Butterflylabs has a buissness history of keeping stuff secret and silent.
And he certain doesnt have any experience with posting on a forum or maintaining websites.
Thats why (untill now) stuff has seem so shady and all I guess.

[Desolator]

When the first FPGA I saw came out, it was 400MHs and around $600.  There was zero competition.  To a certain extent, making a chip is making a chip so the fact that these are $149 is amazing.  But with 2 more companies breathing down their necks with similar ASICs, tada, it's $149.  I'm just saying if those 2 competing companies weren't out there, charging $400 instead of $149 for something that runs at 3500MH/s would be perfectly acceptable to most people so they would.  In fact, they could probably get $800.

However you want to phrase it, BFL has always been at the forefront of disruptive product announcement.

You have your cause - effect on pricing backward.

I've read all of your posts here and it's baseless, wrong and speculative all the way.

Did you even take economics in school?  With no competition, you can charge the moon.  That's cause and effect.  If they really get 3500MH/s and let's say a 5830 costs about $115 and typically reaches 320MH/s overclocked, they could charge $1000 and it would still pay off about 20% faster, not counting electricity which is also a huge difference.

But lets say the chips cost $75 to make.  Well, some other company comes in and says we don't need a $925 profit. We'll sell them for $700.  Then the 3rd company comes in and says we'll sell them for $500 because that's still $325 profit.  Suddenly everyone just has a bottom line contest and it ends up at $149.  Or one cheats and mines with them to drive the profits up so they can lower the cost and their products are the ones that take off instead of their competition.  But like I said, if all they had to compete with were GPUs and their ASICs were the only ones, they could and would charge A LOT of money.

And what exactly is wrong with my mysterious, giant leap of a connection that they made a product to sell to people to make money and mining with that product for a very short period of time would make a lot of money so they're probably doing it, as they do want to make money.

Also, 1 person close to them already confirmed that they're mining with an undisclosed about of hardware at the moment.

Then there's the fact that you really can't send out a product like this without running it for at least a couple hours to make sure it works.  Don't want to give your company a bad reputation for like 10% of their products failing in the first week when customers get them.  It's a 1st generation experimental product you know.

So where's my break in logic you're talking about?

[MrTeal]

Josh told me that the owner of Butterflylabs has a buissness history of keeping stuff secret and silent.
And he certain doesnt have any experience with posting on a forum or maintaining websites.
Thats why (untill now) stuff has seem so shady and all I guess.

Seriously? The president of BFL got extradited from Italy and sentenced to 26 months in federal prison for mail fraud stemming from a large internet Ponzi scheme. That's a little more than "keeping stuff secret and silent".

[crazyates]

Except that BFL does have competition, from 3 other companies. And guess what?! They're all within ~ 10-20% of GHs/1kUSD, some better, some worse.