is butterfly labs mining with those ASICs at the moment?

[Fjordbit]

Under NO circumstances should any hardware vendor be mining bitcoins for profit with customer hardware. There is NO excuse for this period.

It is also unethical for someone who works for said company to be competing against the customers of that company.

Just so we're clear on this: cablepair and ngzhang should not mine bitcoins at all.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110090.0

[1714942075]

1714942075

[1714942075]

1714942075

[jjshabadoo]

I specifically stated "customer hardware". I also think they need to disclose if they will be mining also.

Cablepair and Nzhang have been upfront about this.

[Jutarul]

It's not bad, I just don't want to make a commitment and then have to break it due to unforeseen difficulties. As to "why" those details were told to certain individuals at the conference, it was simply because they asked. I don't even know who the various individuals were that I explained our plan to.  If the community did not react so violently to changes in statements made here, we would be more open about our plans, but as it is, if we make a statement and then later have to change that, it turns into a giant mess.

Nedbert9:  We have the best interests of Bitcoin as a whole at heart.  Since you disagree that keeping the security of the network is of paramount importance, please let me know what your order number(s) are and I will get your refund issued immediately so that you may pre-order elsewhere.

Here's a thought: Just use a mining client which allows you to filter the difficulty of blocks as you generate them. Just artificially mine at a higher difficulty (e.g. 100 fold) than the main network. That means that you throw blocks away which meet the network target, but not your own target.
Simple yet efficient. Also works on the test net.

That would be a comprise solution. You forfeit some of the profits, but you get to mine on the main network...

[nedbert9]

If the community did not react so violently to changes in statements made here, we would be more open about our plans, but as it is, if we make a statement and then later have to change that, it turns into a giant mess.

This is a glossing over of the matters at hand.

So, it's ok for BFL to lack transparency, so that it's easier to perpetrate activities that the mining community would frown upon?  Interesting.  So very ethical of you.  That's exactly the kind of community focused company policy I enjoy.  Do you realize that every BFL customer made a purchase decision under the false pretense that BFL would not be participating in the mining of bitcoins?

Nedbert9:  We have the best interests of Bitcoin as a whole at heart.  Since you disagree that keeping the security of the network is of paramount importance, please let me know what your order number(s) are and I will get your refund issued immediately so that you may pre-order elsewhere.

That is an amazing mis-characterization of my concerns.  A politically crafty statement to redirect attention from BFL misleading the community early on and falsely suggesting that it is technically, or practically, impossible to QC BFL units without impacting main-net.


Protecting Bitcoin means you need to QC - every unit for 24 hours - on main-net....  really?


Sinking pretty low eh?


Re:  Returns.  I wouldn't be so stupid to reveal my orders to you and not auction them off.  I'm def considering it.
Not for this, but since your glorious leader likes to scam old people in the mail.




 

[reeses]

So, it's ok for BFL to lack transparency, so that it's easier to perpetrate activities that the mining community would frown upon?  Interesting.  So very ethical of you.  That's exactly the kind of community focused company policy I enjoy.  Do you realize that every BFL customer made a purchase decision under the false pretense that BFL would not be participating in the mining of bitcoins?

Your questions and concerns would be an excellent addition to scary-eyed-batman's "town hall" list.

[Inaba]

Re:  Returns.  I wouldn't be so stupid to reveal my orders to you and not auction them off.  I'm def considering it.
Not for this, but since your glorious leader likes to scam old people in the mail.

So let me get this straight, just so we are clear:

1. You disagree with our non-existent policy to mine on main net with the ASICs we are not currently mining on main net with.
2. You hate BFL and everything we do because we are somehow "shady and dishonest"
3. I offer you a refund, but you don't want one because you
4. Want to sell your place in line to someone else, so you can profit on the loss of someone else buying your place in a supposedly shady company that you hate.

Riiighhhhtt... I guess that morality of yours just goes right out the window when it comes to your profit motive, huh? 

So which is it, are you greedy and only looking out for yourself or are you altruistic and really believe what you say?  If the latter, cancel your orders, vote with your dollars!  If the former, sell your place in line or keep them.  Either you believe what you say and you'll cancel or you are trolling, which is it?  I'm going to guess you aren't going to cancel your orders, your greed will win in the end.

[SysRun]

You can't win in a flame war Inaba. Please take a more measured response and work on the "town hall" thing that has been setup.

[Inaba]

Thanks, you're right, vote with your BTC! 

1) That wasn't a straw man, I was condensing and restating his desires so far.  If they are incorrect, I wait for him to correct me and describe how what I've said is incorrect.
2) It's not, however, when there's an irate, irrational customer, it's best to fire them.  It costs more to deal with problem customers than the profit you make, so it makes more economic sense to part ways from a business perspective.  If people are unhappy, we will gladly issue a refund, because it takes far more time and effort to deal with the constant stream of complaints, most being imaginary or blown out of proportion, than it does to just refund the money and move on.  When the rare instance comes along with the complaint is legitimate and scaled properly, we are glad to deal with that.

So unfortunately, in cases like these, all the "money we'll be making" is less than all the money we'll be losing trying to satisfy people who just can't be satisfied, and believe me, there are a lot of them on this forum.

Huh, I never considered the fact that even if everyone canceled, we would still have the hashing power, but you're right.  That thought does not sit well with me though, I definitely do not want BFL or any single entity to have that much hashing power under one roof, jeez.  That would be a nightmare.

[nedbert9]

Inaba.  I have valid concerns and others have the same take as I do.  (think about the PM traffic going around taking about both BFL developments)

Are we all 'bad customers' and we all need a refund since what customers think really can be a PITA sometimes?  Do we all "hate BFL" since we voice our concerns?


I really can't dignify your response any further.  It's just silly - every single point. 

[Inaba]

So which is it, are you canceling your orders are selling your place in line?  Greed or Morality, choose! 

[Jutarul]

Huh, I never considered the fact that even if everyone canceled, we would still have the hashing power, but you're right.  That thought does not sit well with me though, I definitely do not want BFL or any single entity to have that much hashing power under one roof, jeez.  That would be a nightmare.

One problem of being a big mining entity is that you suddenly have to spend a lot of money on cyber security and you become a target for authorities.

@Inaba: if you're reading this what about the proposal of reduced profits I stated earlier. Can you comment on that?

Here's a thought: Just use a mining client which allows you to filter the difficulty of blocks as you generate them. Just artificially mine at a higher difficulty (e.g. 100 fold) than the main network. That means that you throw blocks away which meet the network target, but not your own target.
Simple yet efficient. Also works on the test net.

That would be a comprise solution. You forfeit some of the profits, but you get to mine on the main network...

BTW I find it justified if a company decides to use their products to make profit. And I don't see the company as competing with miners, because it just engages in OWNERSHIP transfer when it takes the unit and sends it out to the customer. Big difference!

[jjshabadoo]

Many here have provided excellent advice about good PR and customer service.

Josh/Inaba in the past you have done some good things for bitcoin. You have run a great pool, written guides, etc. but you are currently failing as a spokesman for a company which is in need of someone to improve its image.

Your takes on business and customer service are laughable. You have clearly never run your own business nor do you have the proper training/demeanor to run one.

I don't mean have a single employee(yourself) as running your own business.

"Pain in the ass" customers tell far more people about you and your company then completely satisfied customers.

PR is about tact and consistency. You lack both.

I'm sure you don't appreciate my criticism, but if you want to succeed in your current position I would suggest you take a deep think and rework your personal strategy on this.

Also, kill your dual persona, it means nothing to people anymore. You ARE JoshBFL, period.

You can cancel/refund my order, I've never had one because I don't loan people my money for free to develop their product lines.

[crazyates]

Your takes on business and customer service are laughable. You have clearly never run your own business nor do you have the proper training/demeanor to run one.
........
You can cancel/refund my order, I've never had one because I don't loan people my money for free to develop their product lines.

A) If you need customer service, shoot them an email. Their email support is very helpful, and can be done in privacy. Arguing on forums is hardly a way to work out any issues you have.

B) Wait, you've never ordered anything from BFL? Then why do you care?!

[jjshabadoo]

You know what was meant by customer service, it is the totality of the service. Not simply an email request or phone call, but ALL avenues of customer interaction, including this forum.

I care because I actually give a shet about bitcoin as part of a social movement.

I know most here subscribe to the kill or be killed philosophy, I don't.

Yes I have run a business for almost ten years. I have a degree in political science and I am half way through an MBA program.

[Inaba]

All sorts of people love to give armchair advice to the people doing actual work.  It's easy to make pronouncements on how to do something when you don't actually have to do it... unfortunately 99.9% of the time, those pronouncements are miserable failures; I suspect deep down they know they would fail if they tried the "suggestions" in the real world.  

You see it in sports all the time.  The fat dude on the couch yelling at the TV about what a player should have done.  Really?  If it's so easy, why aren't you out there doing it?  

Same goes for business advice - if you know exactly how to do things, why aren't you a rich and successful business person, instead of some dude sitting behind a computer screen trying to convince people you know exactly how things should be done?  

[jjshabadoo]

Okay, I understand now.

Thankfully I get paid more sitting in my armchair than you do pouring gas on shit storms.

That's what happens when you start and run a successful business on your own for nearly ten years.

[Desolator]

Just keep in mind, BFL, this isn't a normal business.  In the bitcoin world, especially this forum, there's 2 types of people:

1. paranoid
2. careless and stupid for not being paranoid

People could think the cards aren't coming and you're a made up Russian syndicate government communist scam sting operation if they so much as don't like your grammatical structure But blindly trusting ANYONE with btc operations is incredibly stupid regardless of the circumstances.  I could go find that guy on the forums with 6000+ posts, hero status, now marked as as scammer.  Reputation doesn't mean a whole lot to me.  So just put up with the haters and flamers until the units ship, then they can probably simmer down and relax.  Until then, be prepared to be suspected of everything and anything

But the legal history and secrecy isn't helping though, lol.

P.S. who the hell deleted my hilarious roll post with the cute little lab puppies?  Fuck it, I'm reposting lol.

Welcome to...BUTTERFLY LABS!

[SgtSpike]

1. You disagree with our non-existent policy to mine on main net with the ASICs we are not currently mining on main net with.

Josh, why do you keep skirting this question?  You know you WILL mine on the main net with the ASICs (if you weren't, you would have denied it by now).  We all know it too, which is why it is being brought up.  No one thinks you are mining on main net now with ASICs, but that's not the question that is presented.  We just want to hear you say it.

Will you be testing the ASIC miners for 24 hours each on main net?

[Inaba]

I'm not skirting the question, I simply do not have an answer at this time.  I have *never* had a definitive answer to that, since it's not really high on the priority list of things going on around here.  We're more concerned with actually getting a finished product prepped and shipped at this point. 

[Desolator]

....as his sig says he's mining at 480 GH/s lol.  Let me just tell everyone, if I invented a device that mines really fast, fuck y'all, I'm mining with it.  So anything short of that is quite a bit better lol.  I mean have like a room full at least.  What company doesn't use their own product?  Ford, McDonalds, Dyson, everyone!  Even investment bankers invest in their own funds.  If it works, use it.

And once again, if BFL wants to make $XXX amount of money period, then they either make 100% from your purchases of hardware or they go like 90% hardware 10% small mining operation.  Plus, if they're paying big bucks to have a Taiwanese develop custom chips to make BTC mining quicker, cheaper, easier, and better for the environment, not funding it with bitcoin mining almost seems stupid.  So like I said, if they don't buy themselves 1 rig for every rig they sell, I'm fine with most other things than that, lol.