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Author Topic: Large German lobby organization supports ban on Bitcoins  (Read 24621 times)
billyjoeallen
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June 02, 2011, 01:22:46 AM
 #61

It's only a matter of time before they seize or shut down the biggest money exchanges. I remember so well Black Friday , when PokerStars and the other poker sites were taken out. The way to minimize your risk is to keep small amounts of money at the exchange and keep most of your BTC offline.  Then, when MtGox gets the PokerStars treatment, we can just start up elsewhere.  The most popular online eWallets are also vulnerable. Nobody said being a pioneer was easy.

insert coin here:
1Ctd7Na8qE7btyueEshAJF5C7ZqFWH11Wc

Open an exchange account at CampBX: options, lowest commissions, and best security
https://campbx.com/register.php?r=0Y7YxohTV0B
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marcus_of_augustus
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June 02, 2011, 01:30:47 AM
 #62

It's only a matter of time before they seize or shut down the biggest money exchanges. I remember so well Black Friday , when PokerStars and the other poker sites were taken out. The way to minimize your risk is to keep small amounts of money at the exchange and keep most of your BTC offline.  Then, when MtGox gets the PokerStars treatment, we can just start up elsewhere.  The most popular online eWallets are also vulnerable. Nobody said being a pioneer was easy.

poker sites would still be up if they were using namecoin DNS ...

btw, i have for sale

fulltiltpoker.bit
pokerstars.bit

if anybody is interested Smiley

foo
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June 02, 2011, 01:35:37 AM
 #63


Well, at least Dmitri has found out about Bitcoin: Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcdE9ngx08

I know this because Tyler knows this.
MoonShadow
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June 02, 2011, 01:50:09 AM
 #64

It's only a matter of time before they seize or shut down the biggest money exchanges. I remember so well Black Friday , when PokerStars and the other poker sites were taken out. The way to minimize your risk is to keep small amounts of money at the exchange and keep most of your BTC offline.  Then, when MtGox gets the PokerStars treatment, we can just start up elsewhere.  The most popular online eWallets are also vulnerable. Nobody said being a pioneer was easy.

It'd be just as well if MtGox were to publish their static IP, so that anyone with any tech savvy can still get there.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
bitcool
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June 02, 2011, 02:39:04 AM
 #65

Bitcoin needs our own lobbying to counteract this FUD.

This was suggested a few days ago in this thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10510.0
In a different country though.
shackra
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June 02, 2011, 02:47:56 AM
 #66

I'll contact the bitcoin international lobby cabal tomorrow and notify them of the new development in Germany. I'm sure our agents are already en route. Anyone who wants to join should report to the usual place at the appropriate time. LA LE LU LE LO

OMG, The Patriots! (La Li Lu Le Lo) want to stop the bitcoin economy :O

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cloud9
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June 02, 2011, 07:54:33 AM
 #67

Wouldn't it be a sad day if the protection of vested interests of status quo lobbying groups stands in the way of progress, and causes the downfall of bitcoin?

Among others, this might have been what humanity would have lost out on:

- Bitcoin being an enabler not an unabler for Law Enforcement Officers to catch criminals by inspection of the publicly available blockchain.
- For Law Enforcement Officers bitcoin will be much easier to trace through the blockchain than numbered national currency cash bills, valuable collectors items, baseball cards, stamps, coins, diamonds, password club memberships, offshore properties, and offshore proxy trusts, etc. etc.
- Instantaneous transfer
- Vast distances or small distances can be covered
- Simple (no client needed when using mybitcoin.com or a facebook plugin, for example)
- Mobile (mybitcoin.com for example, can be accessed from a mobile smart phone / internet enabled phone or device)
- Securely backed by a capital intensive network of distributed computers
- Universally usable through existing communication channels
- Scarcity enabling automatic adjustment to inflation/deflation by fairly fixing supply side and only demand side do adjustments
- Novelty rewarding early adopters to spread the word
- Owned and managed by adopters themselves

Bitcoin is not anonymous.  Only illegal activity envolving bitcoin laundering (similar to cash laundering) can cloak someones identity.  If someone can not explain through the blockchain where he got his bitcoins from - then this will warrant an investigation.

Isn't this lobbying group's attempt not about trying to lable bitcoin as a criminal enabler - but more of a eliminator of competition?  Doesn't potential slanderous talk without factual backing and balanced opinions, in order to eliminate possible competition, warrant an investigation by the competition commissions in free market economies?  Shouldn't innovation to improve thousands of peoples lives, by reducing the costs and time involved in the friction of current available transfer methods not be allowed to be attempted to be stamped out like this, but allowed to flourish?

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
Timo Y
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June 02, 2011, 08:04:47 AM
 #68

Man, I didn't expect things to get this political this early.

When I read stuff like this I fear that Bitcoin is going to turn me into a raging libertarian.

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marcus_of_augustus
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June 02, 2011, 08:12:43 AM
 #69

Man, I didn't expect things to get this political this early.

When I read stuff like this I fear that Bitcoin is going to turn me into a raging libertarian.

do it .... it's ......  well, liberating

Who are these guys anyway exactly "The Digital WTF Lobby?"

I mean who do they speak for, are they just one guy in an office in Dresden picking his nose wondering if he can scare up some business from his fee payers cause they're all busted-arse from the euro crises ... or something more?

jashan
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June 02, 2011, 08:49:04 AM
 #70

As others have mentioned and explained: Bitcoin isn't really that anonymous unless you personally put quite a bit of effort into making it so.

I think that's the kind of "lobby work" we can do: Spread the truth so people have the opportunity to get the correct information instead of falling for people / institutions trying to create a panic.

See also:

Weaknesses - Tracing a coin's history
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Tracing_a_coin_s_history

Anonymity (directly linked from the first link)
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity

Quote: "While the Bitcoin technology can support strong anonymity, the current implementation is usually not very anonymous." and "The main problem is that every transaction is publicly logged. Anyone can see the flow of Bitcoins from address to address (see first image)." ... that can either be considered a problem or a benefit - after all, transparency can be a really nice thing when everyone has access to it ;-)

I've just sent a letter to the editor of Spiegel Online which wrote in a (critical) article about the BVDW warning "Die Transaktionen lassen sich prinzipiell nicht nachverfolgen," (the transactions cannot be traced in principle) letting them know that's factually wrong, at the same time letting them know I appreciate that they expose the BVDW warning for what it is: An attempt to create a panic.

Here's a link to the article (it's German):

Wirtschaftsverband erwartet Bitcoin-Verbot
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,766167,00.html

If you like this posting - feel free to give a tip:
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Keep those Bitcoins flowing :-)

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benjamindees
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June 02, 2011, 09:03:30 AM
 #71

Any publicity is good publicity.  I wonder how well the average German will take a lobby of payment processors complaining about "tax evasion" and defending "consumers" in the current climate, in which the Merkel government is facing collapse due to taxpayer bailouts of foreign "consumers".  Germans are generally law-abiding, but they aren't stupid.  But I don't believe this is intended for general consumption anyways.  It's a call for the overlords to circle the wagons.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
cloud9
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June 02, 2011, 09:05:54 AM
 #72

I've just sent a letter to the editor of Spiegel Online which wrote in a (critical) article about the BVDW warning "Die Transaktionen lassen sich prinzipiell nicht nachverfolgen," (the transactions cannot be traced in principle) letting them know that's factually wrong, at the same time letting them know I appreciate that they expose the BVDW warning for what it is: An attempt to create a panic.

I'm confident that they will practice balanced journalism and do an editor's errata.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
matonis
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June 02, 2011, 09:23:55 AM
 #73

It's only a matter of time before they seize or shut down the biggest money exchanges. I remember so well Black Friday , when PokerStars and the other poker sites were taken out. The way to minimize your risk is to keep small amounts of money at the exchange and keep most of your BTC offline.  Then, when MtGox gets the PokerStars treatment, we can just start up elsewhere.  The most popular online eWallets are also vulnerable. Nobody said being a pioneer was easy.

It'd be just as well if MtGox were to publish their static IP, so that anyone with any tech savvy can still get there.

Publishing a static IP is great, but if it gets to that point (which I think it will), then don't exchangers like MtGox require something like this:
http://www.fotograf.nu/360/bahnhof/

Founding Director, Bitcoin Foundation
I also cover the bitcoin economy for Forbes, American Banker, PaymentsSource, and CoinDesk.
cloud9
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June 02, 2011, 09:35:31 AM
 #74

It's only a matter of time before they seize or shut down the biggest money exchanges. I remember so well Black Friday , when PokerStars and the other poker sites were taken out. The way to minimize your risk is to keep small amounts of money at the exchange and keep most of your BTC offline.  Then, when MtGox gets the PokerStars treatment, we can just start up elsewhere.  The most popular online eWallets are also vulnerable. Nobody said being a pioneer was easy.

It'd be just as well if MtGox were to publish their static IP, so that anyone with any tech savvy can still get there.

Publishing a static IP is great, but if it gets to that point (which I think it will), then don't exchangers like MtGox require something like this:
http://www.fotograf.nu/360/bahnhof/

And then we can all get on our donkeys with our fiat currencies in our bags - carting it there to the market to go get some bitcoins which others have instantly deposited electronically for exchange/barter with us?   Huh

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
marcus_of_augustus
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June 02, 2011, 09:41:46 AM
 #75

It's only a matter of time before they seize or shut down the biggest money exchanges. I remember so well Black Friday , when PokerStars and the other poker sites were taken out. The way to minimize your risk is to keep small amounts of money at the exchange and keep most of your BTC offline.  Then, when MtGox gets the PokerStars treatment, we can just start up elsewhere.  The most popular online eWallets are also vulnerable. Nobody said being a pioneer was easy.

It'd be just as well if MtGox were to publish their static IP, so that anyone with any tech savvy can still get there.

Publishing a static IP is great, but if it gets to that point (which I think it will), then don't exchangers like MtGox require something like this:
http://www.fotograf.nu/360/bahnhof/

neat site ... did anyone else catch julian chatting up the swedish lady in the lobby there?

cloud9
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June 02, 2011, 10:52:21 AM
 #76

Wouldn't the outright banning, and not fair value market expropriation (calculated by extrapolating average market value and average past growth rate to the date of expropriation from the date when someone lobbying and very influential starts meddling publicly with the free market by putting question marks with unfounded statements over something of value's viability) of bitcoins at fair market value, constitute the infringement of the property owner's legal right?  Doesn't a lot of effort and capital go into producing the secured block chain and the key holders' ownership rights?  Can't there be value attributed to a key by calculating the all business costs (capital invested, time invested, running costs, etc.) it takes to produce?  These magical keys are not just grabbed out of thin air.  Wouldn't you need a good reason to just ban something produced legitimately and use for legitimate reasons?  People using anything illegitimately should just be prosecuted.  Can you punish/take property away from the general population, because some subset of people are using that kind of property for illegal activities, and you are hessitant to just investigate only the purputrators?  Shouldn't you need to reimburse people for their efforts already made under the status quo legal system, if your changing that legal system by litigation, causing damage to the value of ownership rights currently in existence?  Does a government not have an obligation to protect life and property rights?  Isn't the talk of this lobby group wishful thinking?

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
foo
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June 02, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
 #77


I know this because Tyler knows this.
datguywhowanders
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June 02, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
 #78

Ditto on the wall of text.

I have to say though, in response to the original topic, I'm far less concerned with countries banning bitcoin than I am with countries using their very large pocketbooks to purchase enough computing power that could swing the network power greater than 50% in their favor.

As several others have pointed out through various threads, it would only take several million dollars, but that's just a fraction of the annual budget of an organization like the FBI, CIA, or NSA. Our only hope against that threat is to encourage others to load up their nodes and miners and increase the strength of the network.

Donations Welcome: 163id7T8KZ6MevqT86DjrBF2kfCPrQsfZE
marcus_of_augustus
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June 02, 2011, 10:20:30 PM
 #79

Ditto on the wall of text.

I have to say though, in response to the original topic, I'm far less concerned with countries banning bitcoin than I am with countries using their very large pocketbooks to purchase enough computing power that could swing the network power greater than 50% in their favor.

As several others have pointed out through various threads, it would only take several million dollars, but that's just a fraction of the annual budget of an organization like the FBI, CIA, or NSA. Our only hope against that threat is to encourage others to load up their nodes and miners and increase the strength of the network.

GPU arms race ... do ya feel lucky, well do ya punk?

I have a hunch that they already dipped their toes in the water ...

http://blockexplorer.com/address/1JYdudjausg1VUzosifETZbuLAevyPgnza

What are they going to do with a big pile of bitcoins when they are finished "attacking" the network?

Raizer04
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June 03, 2011, 02:10:06 AM
 #80

Germany has always been afraid of disruptions to their society, another example of this attitude is their hatred for private schools and homeschooling.  They heavily regulate private schools, and homeschooling parents can actually get sent to prison for disruption of state order!
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