Bitcoin is NOT a currency debate!

[Borisz]

Until the retail shop declares its income in Dollars or Euros it will most likely pay you back the refund in that currency. So if you paid 300$ for a pair of jeans in Bitcoins, say 1 BTC, and X time later you want a refund by specifying that you want your asset back (BTC, which is different than the shops currency) then the retailer will convert the 300$ for you into 0.5 or 1.5 BTC, regardless. I would do it this way if I was a "normal" retailer as it is 1. fair for my shop, 2. my balance sheet is OK and 3. the customer got back his money in a form he wanted.

If you are a bitcoin based shop and you believe in BTC and in that 1BTC=1BTC no matter what, then you may pay back the original purchase amount BTC.

All this probably wouldn't matter too much for the customer if the Bitcoin price was relatively stable.

[AgentofCoin]

This OP sounds exactly like when I debated a user over whether Bitcoin is actually an unregulated lottery, months ago.
It is possible this OP is just arguing for argument sake.

FWIW, currently, BTC is a commodity or a property.
It has not reached currency ability or status.
Satoshi Nakamoto's original intention was to create a currency.
That is many years away.

[monsanto]

Bitcoin is NOT a currency!

In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?

If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!

What do you think?

Yes right now it does not resemble a stable currency. I see it currently as a paradigm shift in the history of wagering. It's almost exclusively used for gambling, and speculating on its own value. Never before has there been such a pure form of wagering in history. So forget about examples where you buy jeans! Instead you can short your shorts! You can buy some shorts (clothing that is) right before you think something will happen that will lower the price of a bitcoin, then wait and if it falls, return your shorts, and get the usd value of the shorts you shorted (in bitcoin) in return. Welcome to the future  

[pooya87]

Bitcoin is NOT a currency!

In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?

If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!

What do you think?

this is always what i say and concerns me.

bitcoin is not "YET" a currency, you can use it as a currency but it is still an investment with somewhat of a high risk.

this is why all the places that are accepting bitcoin, they immediately dump it for fiat instead. so as for your example if the price goes up to $300, you won't get a 1BTC refund instead you will get ~0.83BTC refund because the shop is dealing in fiat not bitcoin. they are just accepting bitcoin which is then converted into fiat.

also that is why you will always see the prices in USD and the equivalent in bitcoin, not a fixed bitcoin price.

[Amph]

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

[loiterin9]

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

Deflation has negative consequences same as inflation. I agree that fiat world has intrinsic inflation caused by current monetary system where central bank levies an interest rate on all funds it lends to commercial banks and that what causes it. Hence the only way commercial bank can make money is by landing it further driving inflation. Bitcoin solves this but as the supply is limited you are right in long term it will cause deflationary pressure. In essence this means that a user/holder of bitcoin will be able to buy more with it at a later date if he/she holds on to it for longer as the value will go up. As in the examples of Japan. But this causes another problem, one of the key functions of money/currency is facilitate the exchange of goods and services and if bitcoin is not being used for that instead it is being kept as the value rises it's not performing it's main function as medium of exchange.

So as you can see these two features are interdependent and has direct impact on the value and volatility. At the moment I do not have answer, this is why I started this debate.

Thank you for joining. 

[Anirban Sarkar]

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

[loiterin9]

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

[Kakmakr]

You do not need to convert it. If everyone accepted it as payment, nobody would ever convert it to fiat.
The problem is, it's not accepted everywhere yet, so people convert it to fiat to use it to pay for things that are only accepted with fiat payment.
We have discussed this before. Anything can be a currency, if someone is willing to trade for it's perceived value. <Trading cards, marbles etc> The fact that it's not government regulated, does not take away from the fact that it can function as a currency of trade. ^hmmm^

[Amph]

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

Deflation has negative consequences same as inflation. I agree that fiat world has intrinsic inflation caused by current monetary system where central bank levies an interest rate on all funds it lends to commercial banks and that what causes it. Hence the only way commercial bank can make money is by landing it further driving inflation. Bitcoin solves this but as the supply is limited you are right in long term it will cause deflationary pressure. In essence this means that a user/holder of bitcoin will be able to buy more with it at a later date if he/she holds on to it for longer as the value will go up. As in the examples of Japan. But this causes another problem, one of the key functions of money/currency is facilitate the exchange of goods and services and if bitcoin is not being used for that instead it is being kept as the value rises it's not performing it's main function as medium of exchange.

So as you can see these two features are interdependent and has direct impact on the value and volatility. At the moment I do not have answer, this is why I started this debate.

Thank you for joining.  

i'm not really in agreement with the fact that deflation is bad because encourages people to hold only, and not to use their coins

the deflation can have place even if people use a system with a limited supply like bitcoin for their daily shopping, while many other join the party by buying more coins and thus making the price to rise in step by step, the intrinsic nature of its scarcity will feed its deflation, even more

the usage of those coins will not lead a dent on the deflationary nature of your enviroment, like in the case of bitcoin, it is entirely possible to have both, usage and deflation in the same system like it is bitcoin

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

i would if there were shopping like amazon that accept it

but the main reason(i've already said this in another thread but i want to repeat it, because many think that here we dump only for fiat and we don't care about bitcoin), for me, for not using bitcoin right now, it's related to its price, its value is beyond mediocre

why i should waste my coins now for buying, let's say a GPU for my gaming rig, when in the future i can buy 10 with the same amount?

besides the fact that i don't want to dump, i don't want also, to spend bitcoin until it has a very good market cap, in fact i'm only dumping for emergencies...

[loiterin9]

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

Deflation has negative consequences same as inflation. I agree that fiat world has intrinsic inflation caused by current monetary system where central bank levies an interest rate on all funds it lends to commercial banks and that what causes it. Hence the only way commercial bank can make money is by landing it further driving inflation. Bitcoin solves this but as the supply is limited you are right in long term it will cause deflationary pressure. In essence this means that a user/holder of bitcoin will be able to buy more with it at a later date if he/she holds on to it for longer as the value will go up. As in the examples of Japan. But this causes another problem, one of the key functions of money/currency is facilitate the exchange of goods and services and if bitcoin is not being used for that instead it is being kept as the value rises it's not performing it's main function as medium of exchange.

So as you can see these two features are interdependent and has direct impact on the value and volatility. At the moment I do not have answer, this is why I started this debate.

Thank you for joining.  

i'm not really in agreement with the fact that deflation is bad because encourages people to hold only, and not to use their coins

the deflation can have place even if people use a system with a limited supply like bitcoin for their daily shopping, while many other join the party by buying more coins and thus making the price to rise in step by step, the intrinsic nature of its scarcity will feed its deflation, even more

the usage of those coins will not lead a dent on the deflationary nature of your enviroment, like in the case of bitcoin, it is entirely possible to have both, usage and deflation in the same system like it is bitcoin

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

i would if there were shopping like amazon that accept it

but the main reason(i've already said this in another thread but i want to repeat it, because many think that here we dump only for fiat and we don't care about bitcoin), for me, for not using bitcoin right now, it's related to its price, its value is beyond mediocre

why i should waste my coins now for buying, let's say a GPU for my gaming rig, when in the future i can buy 10 with the same amount?

besides the fact that i don't want to dump, i don't want also, to spend bitcoin until it has a very good market cap, in fact i'm only dumping for emergencies...

Mate you answered your own question. Why would you spend bitcoin if you antisipate the value to go up. In deflationary situation that is always be the case and if the market adobt your perseption there would be no maket. That confirms bitcoin not to be a valit currecny.

[Amph]

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

Deflation has negative consequences same as inflation. I agree that fiat world has intrinsic inflation caused by current monetary system where central bank levies an interest rate on all funds it lends to commercial banks and that what causes it. Hence the only way commercial bank can make money is by landing it further driving inflation. Bitcoin solves this but as the supply is limited you are right in long term it will cause deflationary pressure. In essence this means that a user/holder of bitcoin will be able to buy more with it at a later date if he/she holds on to it for longer as the value will go up. As in the examples of Japan. But this causes another problem, one of the key functions of money/currency is facilitate the exchange of goods and services and if bitcoin is not being used for that instead it is being kept as the value rises it's not performing it's main function as medium of exchange.

So as you can see these two features are interdependent and has direct impact on the value and volatility. At the moment I do not have answer, this is why I started this debate.

Thank you for joining.  

i'm not really in agreement with the fact that deflation is bad because encourages people to hold only, and not to use their coins

the deflation can have place even if people use a system with a limited supply like bitcoin for their daily shopping, while many other join the party by buying more coins and thus making the price to rise in step by step, the intrinsic nature of its scarcity will feed its deflation, even more

the usage of those coins will not lead a dent on the deflationary nature of your enviroment, like in the case of bitcoin, it is entirely possible to have both, usage and deflation in the same system like it is bitcoin

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

i would if there were shopping like amazon that accept it

but the main reason(i've already said this in another thread but i want to repeat it, because many think that here we dump only for fiat and we don't care about bitcoin), for me, for not using bitcoin right now, it's related to its price, its value is beyond mediocre

why i should waste my coins now for buying, let's say a GPU for my gaming rig, when in the future i can buy 10 with the same amount?

besides the fact that i don't want to dump, i don't want also, to spend bitcoin until it has a very good market cap, in fact i'm only dumping for emergencies...

Mate you answered your own question. Why would you spend bitcoin if you antisipate the value to go up. In deflationary situation that is always be the case and if the market adobt your perseption there would be no maket. That confirms bitcoin not to be a valit currecny.

well not i have a target at which i can spend it, that's the differnce, i'm not waiting indefinitely, and i'm sure many other are waiting for their price, right now the price is abysmally low in comparison of what we can have in the future

[loiterin9]

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

Deflation has negative consequences same as inflation. I agree that fiat world has intrinsic inflation caused by current monetary system where central bank levies an interest rate on all funds it lends to commercial banks and that what causes it. Hence the only way commercial bank can make money is by landing it further driving inflation. Bitcoin solves this but as the supply is limited you are right in long term it will cause deflationary pressure. In essence this means that a user/holder of bitcoin will be able to buy more with it at a later date if he/she holds on to it for longer as the value will go up. As in the examples of Japan. But this causes another problem, one of the key functions of money/currency is facilitate the exchange of goods and services and if bitcoin is not being used for that instead it is being kept as the value rises it's not performing it's main function as medium of exchange.

So as you can see these two features are interdependent and has direct impact on the value and volatility. At the moment I do not have answer, this is why I started this debate.

Thank you for joining.  

i'm not really in agreement with the fact that deflation is bad because encourages people to hold only, and not to use their coins

the deflation can have place even if people use a system with a limited supply like bitcoin for their daily shopping, while many other join the party by buying more coins and thus making the price to rise in step by step, the intrinsic nature of its scarcity will feed its deflation, even more

the usage of those coins will not lead a dent on the deflationary nature of your enviroment, like in the case of bitcoin, it is entirely possible to have both, usage and deflation in the same system like it is bitcoin

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

i would if there were shopping like amazon that accept it

but the main reason(i've already said this in another thread but i want to repeat it, because many think that here we dump only for fiat and we don't care about bitcoin), for me, for not using bitcoin right now, it's related to its price, its value is beyond mediocre

why i should waste my coins now for buying, let's say a GPU for my gaming rig, when in the future i can buy 10 with the same amount?

besides the fact that i don't want to dump, i don't want also, to spend bitcoin until it has a very good market cap, in fact i'm only dumping for emergencies...

Mate you answered your own question. Why would you spend bitcoin if you antisipate the value to go up. In deflationary situation that is always be the case and if the market adobt your perseption there would be no maket. That confirms bitcoin not to be a valit currecny.

well not i have a target at which i can spend it, that's the differnce, i'm not waiting indefinitely, and i'm sure many other are waiting for their price, right now the price is abysmally low in comparison of what we can have in the future

That's the case. If you perceive will be constantly rising you will only spend just for what you absolutely need because you know if just wait a little while longer it would cost you less. This is deflation and in the medium to long term this is detrimental to the economy as it would inevitably constrict. So, if you follow this thought chain bitcoin is not good for economy from that point of view. But as a method of moving value around it is generally a good thing as it would reduce the costs money remittance. However, will also take away profits of companies that are currently but will also shift those to be spent somewhere else.

Anyone care to share more thoughts?

[johnyj]

Of course it is not, it is the most advanced value certificate that human has ever created, all currencies are like from stone age when comparing with bitcoin

[Blawpaw]

Bitcoin is not a Currency but it can work as if it was; it has the perfect design to turn it into a medium of exchange, making it the virtual Gold because of its scarcity! And by this, it means it is also a very good store of value.

However, it works pretty well as a currency since its extremely devisable and functional in terms of usability. Besides its completely decentralized which means that neither Banks nor governments can't control it!

[neurotypical]

EVERYTHING that is accepted in exchange of goods and services is a currency. The legitimacy of a currency is mostly it's network effect (how widely it is accept). Now, BTC is a new currency, and constantly growing, and it has special features that no other currency has, which makes it special, and objectively superior to all other currencies we've seen. But, dollar is still the king of network effect. In the future, we have to aim to get as much people involved in Bitcoin, it's the only way to go.

[Herbert2020]

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

of course not!
but we can convert it to fiat so it is usable and also a good investment.

but in order to become a currency it needs to be accepted by services instead or as another payment method side by side of cash. and since bitcoin is in its early stages we can safely assume that it has the potential to reach that level of acceptance and stability.

[galbros]

In the US the IRS agrees with you while FINCEN does not.

Your point is that the value of bitcoin is potentially not very stable when compared to other currencies.  I agree, this is something that is holding it back.  However, as many have noted, this is easily addressed by merchants and users being reasonable.

[wearepoor]

Bitcoin is can be commodity and can be a currency too, it's depends on you used it, you look at the value of btc to fiat exchange, and you see bitcoin as commodity which only can exchange to fiat only, you need see is widely, now a lot merchant or company accept bitcoin as payment processor, it's prove if bitcoin can be a currency.

It is definitely a currency but rather than everyone is using it as a payment system like the debit cards,credit cards or paypal as bitcoins is not accepted in each and every country so you cannot say it as a currency once it is accepted globally we can say it as a currency.

[cellard]

From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.