Bitcoin is NOT a currency debate!

[runpaint]

All good gents!!! But you are confused. If you call tomatoes apples it won't make them apples.

Bitcoin is not a legal tender which is the primary function of currency or funds. As defined by Royal Mint:

"As defined"

So you're saying tomatoes are apples because they're defined as apples. 

"Legal tender" is just what the government calls it.  It has nothing to do with the inherent properties of the medium of exchange.

Another government's currency is not legal tender in the United States, but it is still currency.  Just as U.S. Dollars are not legal tender in other countries.  Unless they call them apples, like in Ecuador, which now uses U.S. Dollars as their legal tender.  And they banned Bitcoin, which doesn't stop it from being a currency. 

[d5000]

OP is right. Bitcoin is not a currency.

It is an online community with a communication mechanism (=the BTC software) that replaces some of the properties of a currency.

Fundamentally, because of it's "volatility", a BTC token does not cover the important function of a unit of account.

This is because its price / value depends only from the valuation the community members give its tokens. If the community feels the BTC token is overvalued, they may sell and BTC price may fall.

This wouldn't be a problem in a mostly "egalitarian" and "rational" community. But 1) not every community member has the same "voting power", as large speculators still dominate the market and can manipulate the price. 2) New bitcoin holders operate often in a pretty irrational manner, "buying high selling low".

Maybe in the future the unit of account function can be covered by BTC, maybe not.

[jt byte]

I have seen in many portals, websites that bitcoin is named as a cryptocurrency.
But i have read also somewhere as a digital currency.
So it is just a currency

[edric]

I have touch upon this in my first post. If it is a tech and not a currency why are we talking so much about regulation? Compare bitcoin to Visa. Visa is not a regulated business.  Why should bitcoin be?

I would argue that Visa is a regulated business.  The credit card industry is heavily regulated and does a lot of compliance.  As far as currency, I can understand why it is a topic of hot debate because it has characteristics that allow for different arguments but I view BTC as a currency.  After all, we call them cryptocurrencies.

[Q7]

If he sells a pair of jeans for 1 bitcoin and when the customers ask for a refund due to product dissatisfaction, the customer will get back 1 bitcoin. Simple as that. How complicated could that be? the problem that arises here is the bitcoin to dollar mentality which has been engraved in our mind that whatever tangible item value has to be measured against fiat currency. If it is priced in btc then by all means it is measured in btc. You don't hear people paying for a pair of jeans in euro and when the dollar equivalent value goes up, he will ask for extra refund.

[pooya87]

If he sells a pair of jeans for 1 bitcoin and when the customers ask for a refund due to product dissatisfaction, the customer will get back 1 bitcoin. Simple as that. How complicated could that be? the problem that arises here is the bitcoin to dollar mentality which has been engraved in our mind that whatever tangible item value has to be measured against fiat currency. If it is priced in btc then by all means it is measured in btc. You don't hear people paying for a pair of jeans in euro and when the dollar equivalent value goes up, he will ask for extra refund.

the complication arises when the shop owner wants to restock or pay taxes or pay rent, all of those are being done in fiat.
so lets assume 1BTC=$250 and the shop owner bought one pair of jeans for $250 and sells that pair to a customer for 1BTC.
after a week the bitcoin price goes up to $1000 and the customer wants refund of 1BTC then with your logic the shop keeper has to pay him $1000 as the matter of fact.

[vm_mpn]

Perhaps we are looking at it wrong way:

These bullion coins carry face values of $5, $10, $25, and $50. These are their legal values reflecting their issue and monetized value as coins. They are legal tender[3] for all debts public and private at their face values. These face values do not reflect their intrinsic value which is much greater and is mainly dictated by their troy weight and the current precious metal price. In 2012 the U.S. Mint sold the 2012 one ounce coin ($50 face value) at $1,835.00.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle

[goosoodude]

If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!

So because different currencies have varying exchange rates with one another, they aren't currencies? Nonsense, all currencies do this with one another, bitcoin simply has more volatility because it's so knew, and most people haven't figured out how valuable it is yet.

That's exactly the point. If someone doesn't like the volatility then he should not use it. Or in case of refunds he can offer to accept bitcoins only in form of fiat. So that the buyer sends his coins and the coin gets exchanged. He then has the right to get the fiat back. Miner providers did this already.

[oblivi]

If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!

So because different currencies have varying exchange rates with one another, they aren't currencies? Nonsense, all currencies do this with one another, bitcoin simply has more volatility because it's so knew, and most people haven't figured out how valuable it is yet.

That's exactly the point. If someone doesn't like the volatility then he should not use it. Or in case of refunds he can offer to accept bitcoins only in form of fiat. So that the buyer sends his coins and the coin gets exchanged. He then has the right to get the fiat back. Miner providers did this already.

No one (as in most people) will not like the volatility, that's why pioneers cope with volatility. The average joes can't see beyond the price, and they will start accepting BTC when the volatility is way lower, but they will end up having to deal with it because sooner or later, even if we stay an entire year of a stable price, there will be huge pumps that keep making the price higher, since mathematically speaking is unavoidable as demand grows and halvings occur.

[goosoodude]

If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!

So because different currencies have varying exchange rates with one another, they aren't currencies? Nonsense, all currencies do this with one another, bitcoin simply has more volatility because it's so knew, and most people haven't figured out how valuable it is yet.

Ok let's assume you get a bitcoin back. Which is now $300 all you have to do is sell it for $300 and pay 3/4 of for the pair of jeans. Which mean you made $50 on this transaction. How ridiculous is that?

Then this is not much different than the persons who buy something in a store, then wear it over a weekend and give it back to get the price back. If the merchant held the bitcoins in the meanwhile then it's his choice. If he awaited the price to drop then he should have sold.

[goosoodude]

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

Then what is fiat to you? It does not have an intrinsic value too. It only has a value because people believe in the state being able to back this value. That's all. And people believing in other bitcoiners to back the value is true too. So no difference on that point.

If you are with your USD-Note somewhere in africa and no one around then your intrinsic value is not existing too. You can't eat or drink it. The only difference is that it might be harder to find someone who accepts Bitcoin than you will find someone to accept bitcoin. But the same is true to north korean money when you want to buy something with it in an african village.

[Dire]

if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.

Although it doesn't fit within what was traditionally defined as a currency, as in a physical object/note/coin, I think we all know that in some ways it is. It's just innovative and the powers that be are therefore having trouble defining it. As you said, if it can be exchanged for something, it's currency. But it avoids the definition of currency by not exactly existing as anything really. That's the beauty of it.

Coinbase quote on Bitcoins possible VAT exemption because it's not a currency:
http://www.coindesk.com/european-court-of-justice-official-proposes-bitcoin-vat-exemption/

'Bitcoin operations should be exempt from Value Added Tax (VAT), the Advocate General of the European Court of Justice said in an opinion document published today.

Citing existing exemptions for currency and money transactions in Europe’s VAT Directive, Advocate General Juliane Kokott urged the court to opt against applying a tax to bitcoin purchases and sales. She further argued that bitcoin, while not legal tender, is still a form of money.'

Even they are confused... 'not legal tender, but is a form of money'

I think quite possibly this legal ambiguity was deliberate in the design by Nakamoto for just this kind of reason.

As to the US, their constitution allows them to mint their own coin. It's up there with the right to bear arms, only not as well known for some reason. The US government would have a nightmare actually trying to ban it I would imagine.

[Hollingsworth]

Bitcoin goes beyond the traditional definition of currency.

Its a bit like PayPal, where you can transmit a set monetary value across the internet from one recipient to another. It is an encrypted blockchain system that transmits net worth, so technically not a currency, in the legal tender aspect sense of the word. But at the same time it does have value like a commodity, like gold with its value set by an exchange rate.

Maybe we need to redefine currency instead of debating whether bitcoin is a currency.

[glub0x]

Do you think EURO is a currency? Because if you buy something in USD with euro and change them to usd because the company only accept the green bill, then when you ask for refund, you will only get the usd value, even if  EUro went up to 1.3 when it was 1.1 when you bought...


If you want to know if bitcoin is a currency you must start with the simplest definition of what is a currency in your mind.
here is mine:
A currency is an abstract mean of exchange.

Abstract in the way that it is not really usable as is. in other words something that has more value to you (and others?) than it's intrinsic value.
Mean of exchange mean that it is actually use to be exchanged against other things

So with my definition USD, EURO and bitcoins fits.
Gold& silver would fit if it was used. In the old time it would fit, but nowadays i do not see it being used to buy anything but cash...

[goosoodude]

Can you use bitcoin a month without looking at the value compared to dollar? A year?

With any real currency you can use it for years without even knowing how the value is compared to dollar. It doesent matter since both consumers and merchants operate in the same currency all the time.

Guess you don't know this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1087938

Fiat is only more stable in most cases and since everyone is using the same currency it doesn't matter so much what it's price is compared to other currencies. It's the same with bitcoin. For example the signature campaigns doesn't adjust their rates all day after the price bitcoin has in fiat.

Only because bitcoin isn't used so widely doesn't mean that it is no currency. And surely you doesn't want to hold the "real currency" Zimbabwean Dollar.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

Can you use bitcoin a month without looking at the value compared to dollar? A year?

With any real currency you can use it for years without even knowing how the value is compared to dollar. It doesent matter since both consumers and merchants operate in the same currency all the time.

Guess you don't know this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1087938

Fiat is only more stable in most cases and since everyone is using the same currency it doesn't matter so much what it's price is compared to other currencies. It's the same with bitcoin. For example the signature campaigns doesn't adjust their rates all day after the price bitcoin has in fiat.

Only because bitcoin isn't used so widely doesn't mean that it is no currency. And surely you doesn't want to hold the "real currency" Zimbabwean Dollar.

The sig campaigns thus far seem to be behaving decently, even tho make no mistake.. as soon as the price goes above 300+ and stays there they will come up with some excuses to pay less per post. I don't think they will keep the current rates (which are pretty low in most campaigns) even if BTC goes 500+. So yeah.. they are looking at fiat to set their rates.

[goosoodude]

Bitcoin is can be commodity and can be a currency too, it's depends on you used it, you look at the value of btc to fiat exchange, and you see bitcoin as commodity which only can exchange to fiat only, you need see is widely, now a lot merchant or company accept bitcoin as payment processor, it's prove if bitcoin can be a currency.

Do you know what currency makes currency or funds for that case?

The fact that a merchant in a particular country has the legal obligation to accept it. That simple fact above all the rest makes it currency/funds. This means that a merchant in the US can not refuse to accept USD for a product or service. As to bitcoin no such obligation exists hence NOT A CURRENCY. May be a token of some sort but not a currency.

What do you say? US merchants are forced to accept US-Dollar? So when someone has an US bitcoin shop and only wants payments in bitcoins then you claim he can be forced to accept us-dollar? Oo Never heard of that.

Regardless of that... ever tried to go to Christ and buy an expensive watch in the US with canadian money? It's still a currency but it does not have to be accepted the same way bitcoin has. Only because there is no state that enforce a main currency doesn't mean that all currencies that are not a states main currency are no currency at all anymore.

[goosoodude]

All good gents!!! But you are confused. If you call tomatoes apples it won't make them apples.

Bitcoin is not a legal tender which is the primary function of currency or funds. As defined by Royal Mint:

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

So, bitcoin can only be considered legal tender in this case in the UK only after a court can accept it to settle court fees. Unlit then in the strict definition bitcoin is not a currency. However, it does not stop parties to agree between each other to accept it. But it does not make it currency/funds/legal tender.

For example apple pay, they do not pass currency between a iphone and a point of sale, they pass token and the settlement takes place on the background. With bitcoin it is exactly the same but settlement function is brought out to an exchange where a party can exchange bitcoin/token for legal tender.

And? A currency doesn't have to be a legal tender in order to be a currency. I mean you surely wouldn't claim that canadian dollars are not a currency only because they aren't a legel tender in the US.

[b-trading]

Why he get a refund of the value , It should be 1 BTC and not the value on USD .
Let's say you loaned here 0.1 BTC , you will give back 0.1 BTC (unless interesst) no matter how the price is . and that's why for example Theymos left "VIP" rank for people who donate 50 BTC even with the price change over the years , because 50 BTC = 50 BTC .
So you can call it whatever you want , it wouldn't make any difference IMHO

i really agree with you let it be that 1 btc is 1 btc whatever the price of btc is up or down because i think bitcoin is just a kind of payment system but it have a value

[b-trading]

Bitcoin is can be commodity and can be a currency too, it's depends on you used it, you look at the value of btc to fiat exchange, and you see bitcoin as commodity which only can exchange to fiat only, you need see is widely, now a lot merchant or company accept bitcoin as payment processor, it's prove if bitcoin can be a currency.

Yes bitcoin can be a commodity but no for currency. not all the thing that can be as a payment must be a currency..let say a cheque or travelers cheque can be a payment but it is not a currency but it have a value of money and same as bitcoin we can use it as a payment but it is not a currency but it have a value of money