Physical Crypto General Discussion

[TheAnalogKid]

Thats cracking crypto coin slabs (with uniquely identifiable addresses), and resubmitting them ? (so ANACS dont keep a record of the addresses they have graded ?)

Correct.  You crack the slab on your own and resubmit the raw coin.

If you pay for verification service (which you should) then the first bits may get placed on the slab, in which case they would almost certainly have some kind of record of it when you send it in a second time.

They may, or they may not.  I don't know what information ANACS keeps in their database, whether they'll record the firstbits or not.  But either way it doesn't matter.  Why does ANACS (or any of them) care if the coin was submitted 1 time or 100 times?  They'll grade it 100 times, and give you the same grade 100 times, or not.  They still get paid 100 times...

Also, while ANACS the company might keep a record, chances are the graders won't remember a particular coin or address unless it's particularly memorable (1BTC1234 for example).  Remember there's many graders, each coin sees usually at least 2, as many as 5, and they go through so many coins they won't remember seeing a coin again unless it's back the same or next day to the same exact grader.  A grader may see well over a hundred coins in a single day (at our coin service level), they usually take less than a minute for each coin then pass it onto the next grader for their input.  The graders keep notes only enough to make their grade scores, and verify the bits are correct.  The labels are done by a different department completely, who then enter whatever info is needed into the computer systems.

Figure this - suppose you had the coin graded, then you sell it.  The next person doesn't like slabs and cracks it out and puts it in an airtite or an album (don't laugh, this happens all the time with "regular" coins, there are people so anti-slab they'll crack them and "free them" from the "plastic jail" they are in).  Then he sells it to someone else, who wants it graded.  They send it in and it gets graded again, getting the same grade.  ANACS doesn't really know if it's the same person submitting the same coin or not (could be your local coin dealer doing it for you, etc), and again, probably doesn't care.

The major risk of removing the coins from their slabs is that once you do this, you are loosing ANACS's guarantee that their grade is accurate. If you submit a coin as a crossover to ANACS and if they come back with a lower grade then you will be compensated for their original error. This means the worse case scenario that will happen when you resubmit a coin is that it gets the same grade, and a better case scenario is that it's grade gets bumped up one or two notches.

For anyone looking to keep the coin in their collection, I'd agree with you, it generally doesn't make much sense to crack and resubmit - just buy the higher grade in the first place.  That is, unless it's a really rare expensive coin which you can't afford the higher grade.  This is common - I've cracked coins when the difference in the next grade up is several hundred dollars, hoping I've judged it correctly and it will grade higher and I don't have to spend the difference.  Many people do.

But, anyone cracking a slab isn't really concerned about the guarantee.  They're purposely gambling to try to get that higher grade.  The guarantee is worthless to them at that point.  If they are sure it will grade better they'll do it and if it works out it's usually very rewarding when sold.

Agreed it has worked well for me in the past. I still am a firm believer in cracking the slabs before I submit though.

Me as well.  I've successfully cracked and resubmitted many coins.  One time turned a $300 coin into a $1500 coin after it came back a half grade higher.

I always crack myself and re-submit raw, and I recommend it to folks instead of sending it still in the slab.  However, it's extremely easy to damage a coin doing it yourself, so it takes practice - do it on a cheap ass coin first...   .  I've caught the coin on a jagged piece of the slab a few times, sometimes getting lucky and other times paying for it dearly.  Just gotta be patient and careful...

[owlcatz]

Thanks everyone - as a newbie to these physical coins, i'm loving all this info. 

One question though, after finding blazedout's example anacs form - how do you all ship the coin(s)? Airtights? Nothing? Packing tips, info for newbies?

Thanks again.

[gentlemand]

Thanks everyone - as a newbie to these physical coins, i'm loving all this info. 

One question though, after finding blazedout's example anacs form - how do you all ship the coin(s)? Airtights? Nothing? Packing tips, info for newbies?

Thanks again.

They ask for the coins in mylar flips and suggest plenty of extra packaging too.

[TheAnalogKid]

Thanks everyone - as a newbie to these physical coins, i'm loving all this info. 

One question though, after finding blazedout's example anacs form - how do you all ship the coin(s)? Airtights? Nothing? Packing tips, info for newbies?

Thanks again.

If they're in flips I'll transfer them to a plastic 2x2 snaplock holder (lighthouse, BCT, etc), or if they're in an airtite already I'll leave it in there.

They say to put them in 2x2's, but I've never been comfortable with them, especially with proof coins.  The thought of rubbing in the flip during transit just cringes me out.

However, be noted that whatever you send them the coins in, you will never get back, so it's a loss.  Some folks submit in such bulk that they can't afford to do the airtites or plastic holders as it's too expensive, but for just a few coins I like the extra protection.

[dazedfool]

Thanks everyone - as a newbie to these physical coins, i'm loving all this info. 

One question though, after finding blazedout's example anacs form - how do you all ship the coin(s)? Airtights? Nothing? Packing tips, info for newbies?

Thanks again.

If they're in flips I'll transfer them to a plastic 2x2 snaplock holder (lighthouse, BCT, etc), or if they're in an airtite already I'll leave it in there.

They say to put them in 2x2's, but I've never been comfortable with them, especially with proof coins.  The thought of rubbing in the flip during transit just cringes me out.

However, be noted that whatever you send them the coins in, you will never get back, so it's a loss.  Some folks submit in such bulk that they can't afford to do the airtites or plastic holders as it's too expensive, but for just a few coins I like the extra protection.

First, thanks nubbins for starting this discussion. It was sorely needed especially after mucking up one of Blazed's threads.

My opinion on sending coins in for grading... flips are fine and what the graders prefer. Just use new, clean, high quality, non-PVC flips (saflip is a solid choice). Plus plenty of rubber bands and excessive bubble wrap to keep everything super tight and safe in transit.

As far as re-grading coins goes, it works, sometimes. I've dealt with re-grading Cas coins thru ANACS as well as more traditional coins like Morgans and pre-33 gold coins thru NGC/PCGS and had mixed results. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower, sometimes consistent. Sometimes 3-4 grade point difference  . Following TheAnalogKids comment, I have also turned a hundred dollar coin into a thousand dollar coin simply by resubmitting it. And I've experienced the opposite direction. But as far as I can tell, all graders either do not keep track of previous submissions or simply do not care (they get their cut regardless).

[goose20]

Great thread and some interesting reading.

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

[nubbins]

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

Holograms is just one of the reasons why I don't send coins to ANACS.

I've seen some 1btc silvers with TERRIBLE holos receive MS68. It's silly. I bet you could sloppily remove an MS68 holo, grab the private key, reapply the holo with a dab of glue, resubmit it, and ANACS would still give it an MS68.

[Quickseller]

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

Holograms is just one of the reasons why I don't send coins to ANACS.

I've seen some 1btc silvers with TERRIBLE holos receive MS68. It's silly. I bet you could sloppily remove an MS68 holo, grab the private key, reapply the holo with a dab of glue, resubmit it, and ANACS would still give it an MS68.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. However ANACS does not take the condition of a hologram into consideration when grading a coin AFAIK.

Although if you are only looking at pictures of a coin, all aspects of a coins condition are really hard to ascertain and you really need to see a coin with your eyes to get a good idea as to its quality. The coin's grade is probably the best way to tell its quality because almost every seller is going to say that their coin is in pristine condition.

[bithalo]

I have two redeemed 10B and one never holo'd 25b and 5b all get MS60.  So if the holo is clearly peeled or never applied by Mike C, the Cas coins seem to get a default MS60

[nubbins]

Here's something you folks may find interesting. Some time ago, I designed a CoA for a new crypto coin being designed by the (in)famous Goat. The coin never got launched, but I did hand-silkscreen a few test copies of the CoA.

We went through a few revisions, this was the most current one when the plug got pulled. Green, black and gold ink on white 100% cotton rag.





The empty circle was going to house a hologram sticker. Shame they never saw the light of day!

[mrbrt]

Here's something you folks may find interesting. Some time ago, I designed a CoA for a new crypto coin being designed by the (in)famous Goat. The coin never got launched, but I did hand-silkscreen a few test copies of the CoA.

We went through a few revisions, this was the most current one when the plug got pulled. Green, black and gold ink on white 100% cotton rag.

The empty circle was going to house a hologram sticker. Shame they never saw the light of day!

Very nice - about how long does it take to complete 1 CoA?

[nubbins]

There's a lot of setup involved, so although the time per piece for a large run might be very small (a few minutes), that one proof took about three hours to produce

[Possum577]

Nubbins, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Face+Value

[Possum577]

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

Holograms is just one of the reasons why I don't send coins to ANACS.

I've seen some 1btc silvers with TERRIBLE holos receive MS68. It's silly. I bet you could sloppily remove an MS68 holo, grab the private key, reapply the holo with a dab of glue, resubmit it, and ANACS would still give it an MS68.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. However ANACS does not take the condition of a hologram into consideration when grading a coin AFAIK.

Although if you are only looking at pictures of a coin, all aspects of a coins condition are really hard to ascertain and you really need to see a coin with your eyes to get a good idea as to its quality. The coin's grade is probably the best way to tell its quality because almost every seller is going to say that their coin is in pristine condition.

I feel like ANACS is missing a big point of the value of these coins. The face value exists in the hologram (in the key), an unloaded coin or a blank has significantly less value than one that is loaded (literally). So if the hologram is tampered with, how can ANACS consider the value the same as a coin with an intact hologram (let alone one that's of mint state quality)?

I think this is going to lead me to buying ungraded coins so I'm not paying a premium for a moniker that doesn't evaluate all aspects of these very unique coins.

[Quickseller]

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

Holograms is just one of the reasons why I don't send coins to ANACS.

I've seen some 1btc silvers with TERRIBLE holos receive MS68. It's silly. I bet you could sloppily remove an MS68 holo, grab the private key, reapply the holo with a dab of glue, resubmit it, and ANACS would still give it an MS68.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. However ANACS does not take the condition of a hologram into consideration when grading a coin AFAIK.

Although if you are only looking at pictures of a coin, all aspects of a coins condition are really hard to ascertain and you really need to see a coin with your eyes to get a good idea as to its quality. The coin's grade is probably the best way to tell its quality because almost every seller is going to say that their coin is in pristine condition.

I feel like ANACS is missing a big point of the value of these coins. The face value exists in the hologram (in the key), an unloaded coin or a blank has significantly less value than one that is loaded (literally). So if the hologram is tampered with, how can ANACS consider the value the same as a coin with an intact hologram (let alone one that's of mint state quality)?

I think this is going to lead me to buying ungraded coins so I'm not paying a premium for a moniker that doesn't evaluate all aspects of these very unique coins.

If the hologram has been tampered with then there would be a good chance that the coin would be damaged enough so that it would not receive any kind of a high grade. There are also certain security measures on the physical coins that make it evident that a coin's is tampered with to the naked eye so looking at a picture of a coin should allow you to tell if the hologram is intact or not.

I also don't believe that ANACS doesn't actually consider the value of the coin when grading it, they will consider the condition of the coin. It is the market that considers higher graded coins to be more valuable

[gentlemand]

I feel like ANACS is missing a big point of the value of these coins. The face value exists in the hologram (in the key), an unloaded coin or a blank has significantly less value than one that is loaded (literally). So if the hologram is tampered with, how can ANACS consider the value the same as a coin with an intact hologram (let alone one that's of mint state quality)?

I think this is going to lead me to buying ungraded coins so I'm not paying a premium for a moniker that doesn't evaluate all aspects of these very unique coins.

I think they'd be opening themselves up to a nightmare if they started to consider the values of different iterations of coins. They're there to give you an opinion on the metal disk you send them and nothing more.

[Possum577]

I feel like ANACS is missing a big point of the value of these coins. The face value exists in the hologram (in the key), an unloaded coin or a blank has significantly less value than one that is loaded (literally). So if the hologram is tampered with, how can ANACS consider the value the same as a coin with an intact hologram (let alone one that's of mint state quality)?

I think this is going to lead me to buying ungraded coins so I'm not paying a premium for a moniker that doesn't evaluate all aspects of these very unique coins.

I think they'd be opening themselves up to a nightmare if they started to consider the values of different iterations of coins. They're there to give you an opinion on the metal disk you send them and nothing more.

Thanks for the thoughts from you and QS. If the grading is only on the "metal disc" as you say, i'm surprised there's so much variance in the grades that come back...I realize they're using 8x magnification but there's really, really little on the metal of the coin (especially on the silvers) that indicate a difference in grade. The brass coins scuff and tarnish, but the silvers are pristine...every single one! The only difference I see are off center holograms or prefixes that are crooked.

[cyclops]

I feel like ANACS is missing a big point of the value of these coins. The face value exists in the hologram (in the key), an unloaded coin or a blank has significantly less value than one that is loaded (literally). So if the hologram is tampered with, how can ANACS consider the value the same as a coin with an intact hologram (let alone one that's of mint state quality)?

I think this is going to lead me to buying ungraded coins so I'm not paying a premium for a moniker that doesn't evaluate all aspects of these very unique coins.

I think they'd be opening themselves up to a nightmare if they started to consider the values of different iterations of coins. They're there to give you an opinion on the metal disk you send them and nothing more.

Thanks for the thoughts from you and QS. If the grading is only on the "metal disc" as you say, i'm surprised there's so much variance in the grades that come back...I realize they're using 8x magnification but there's really, really little on the metal of the coin (especially on the silvers) that indicate a difference in grade. The brass coins scuff and tarnish, but the silvers are pristine...every single one! The only difference I see are off center holograms or prefixes that are crooked.

No, there are differences between each coin, it all depends on how the die was polished, how much wear and tear it had, as well as how the coin has been handled.

[nubbins]

Nubbins, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Face+Value

...

No, there are differences between each coin, it all depends on how the die was polished, how much wear and tear it had, as well as how the coin has been handled.

Lots of factors at play. I have two 1btc silvers in my personal collection that have two teeny tiny milkspots on the BTC in the exact same location; none of the other coins in the roll have 'em.

Something as simple as a few particles of dust can change a strike; something as simple as carelessly dropping coins into a tube can mar the face of a coin.

From what I've seen, the upper right vertical in the BTC on the 1btc silvers is the most susceptible to an uneven strike.

Has anyone else noticed the die error in the 0.5 silvers?

[wheelz1200]

Is it me or does sometimes it feel like we just keep passing around all of these coins to each other.  I for one am buying and stashing them away.  Whats everyones thoughts on the distribution of physicals?