Is Dash a better alternative to Bitcoin?

[toknormal]

What do you think about open source developments in the Bitcoin ecosystem, such as confidential transactions (with whitepaper), sidechains (with whitepaper), improved smart contracts (with BIP documents), lightning network (with whitepaper), etc.? Is Dash meeting and exceeding that quality and quantity of open source development, or is it falling behind and/or going in the wrong direction? Is the market getting this wrong?

Good point and if you thought you were highlighting areas where bitcoin has an advantage, you're not. You're highlighting one where Dash has the advantage.

First of all, by their developer's own admissions, sidechains are a boilerplate solution for bitcoin's deficiencies in fungibility, performance and whatever other areas programmers care to identify. They're only there because everyone's sh*t scared to touch the bitcoin protocol - not because they are are the "right" solutions monetarily.

Furthermore, they are developed from a monopolistic mindset - one that assumes a one-world, dominant monetary medium (at least in crypto). Don't take my workd for it, take it from the devs themselves (minute: 42;48).

I think that it’s not clear that it’s desirable or good for the concept of digital scarcity if there were to be another event where an altcoin were to take over, so I’m more pushed to the view that we should add the new features that we need to bitcoin.

Likeways, payment channels - however inevitable in any crypto that gets mass adopted - are not an inherent property of the base monetary medium and their necessity as a dependent technology detracts - not enhances - from that medium's integrity as a cash asset. For any new electronic 'token' that purports to garner value as money, the importance of being able to function independently as cash cannot be over estimated.

The design priorities that the Dash project has set itself call for an independently functioning, high performance cash medium that has strong monetary fidelity. That's why it puts things like confirmation time, fungibility, transparency of the blockchain and compatability with the crypto-currency commercial realm at the forefront of its technical objectives.

[illodin]

XMR price July 2014   $3.35
XMR price today        $0.38

To briefly bring this thread back on topic

DASH price May 2014: $13.50
DASH price today: $2.25

BTC price May 2014: $500
BTC price today: $300

Conveniently leaving out the context. ... Monero

What you call "the contest" i.e. Monero, is off topic to this thread. Please try to stay on topic. iCEBREAKER seems capable of that (as far as I can tell every one of his posts here discussed Dash and Bitcoin). Are you?

Back on topic: Dash has lost nearly all of its value while Bitcoin is quickly recovering a large portion of the value it lost over a similar time period. Dash is NOT a better alternative to Bitcoin based on market performance, which is often cited by Dash proponents as a measure of its success.

And now instead of just leaving out the context editing posts to make the context different that it originally was is approaching forum games I've generally expected from puppets deserving the "Trollero" title. Please don't go there.

When iCEBREAKER invested in some coin other than Dash or Bitcoin is totally irrelevant to this thread, so yes, I'm going to trim that irrelevant context.

No, you changed the quote to make it out to be the context was Monero, when the context originally was one of the reasons why Icebreaker might be angry towards Dash and also his horrible investing skills which should make everyone consider his opinions on Dash very critically.

Everyone should also consider any Dash fanclub member's posts critically as being heavily involved with something can come with biased views (hopefully I didn't steal your reply here).

[iCEBREAKER]

To briefly bring this thread back on topic

DASH price May 2014: $13.50
DASH price today: $2.25

BTC price May 2014: $500
BTC price today: $300

Conveniently leaving out the context. ... Monero

What you call "the contest" i.e. Monero, is off topic to this thread. Please try to stay on topic. iCEBREAKER seems capable of that (as far as I can tell every one of his posts here discussed Dash and Bitcoin). Are you?

Back on topic: Dash has lost nearly all of its value while Bitcoin is quickly recovering a large portion of the value it lost over a similar time period. Dash is NOT a better alternative to Bitcoin based on market performance, which is often cited by Dash proponents as a measure of its success.

And now instead of just leaving out the context editing posts to make the context different that it originally was is approaching forum games I've generally expected from puppets deserving the "Trollero" title. Please don't go there.

When iCEBREAKER invested in some coin other than Dash or Bitcoin is totally irrelevant to this thread, so yes, I'm going to trim that irrelevant context.

No, you changed the quote to make it out to be the context was Monero, when the context originally was one of the reasons why Icebreaker might be angry towards Dash and also his horrible investing skills which should make everyone consider his opinions on Dash very critically.

Everyone should also consider any Dash fanclub member's posts critically as being heavily involved with something can come with biased views (hopefully I didn't steal your reply here).

Wading back on topic, here's some shit you'd never see Bitcoin (much less Monero) core devs pulling.

The following has been brought to the attention of the DASH core team several times and has been categorically ignored.

Sept 15: Coin's founder begins posting pump/hype statements like "Finally got my money to the exchange" as if inviting the public to take advantage of an opportunity to front-run a bull with insider info.

Sept 16: Coin's founder continues pump/hype with self-serving, faulty TA.

Sept 17: Coin's founder advertises OTC coins for sale, on an ongoing basis, from the coin's official website.  Why he's using market rather than OTC buys (which directly benefit his coin) is not disclosed.

This summary does not mention specific names, to make it clear that such actions would be outrageous no matter the particular coin/dev involved.

[smooth]

XMR price July 2014   $3.35
XMR price today        $0.38

To briefly bring this thread back on topic

DASH price May 2014: $13.50
DASH price today: $2.25

BTC price May 2014: $500
BTC price today: $300

Conveniently leaving out the context. ... Monero

What you call "the contest" i.e. Monero, is off topic to this thread. Please try to stay on topic. iCEBREAKER seems capable of that (as far as I can tell every one of his posts here discussed Dash and Bitcoin). Are you?

Back on topic: Dash has lost nearly all of its value while Bitcoin is quickly recovering a large portion of the value it lost over a similar time period. Dash is NOT a better alternative to Bitcoin based on market performance, which is often cited by Dash proponents as a measure of its success.

And now instead of just leaving out the context editing posts to make the context different that it originally was is approaching forum games I've generally expected from puppets deserving the "Trollero" title. Please don't go there.

When iCEBREAKER invested in some coin other than Dash or Bitcoin is totally irrelevant to this thread, so yes, I'm going to trim that irrelevant context.

No, you changed the quote to make it out to be the context was Monero, when the context originally was one of the reasons why Icebreaker might be angry towards Dash and also his horrible investing skills which should make everyone consider his opinions on Dash very critically.

The reasons why iCEBREAKER might be angry toward Dash and his investing skills (horrible or otherwise) are both off topic. Try to obsess a bit less about iCEBREAKER.

The topic is "Is Dash a better alternative to Bitcoin?"

Answer: NO

As with the foolish rename, Evan's top-down, decided-in-secret closed-source approach to "Evolution" (the irony is impressive) is not welcomed by the market, and in destroying value, not adding it. Meanwhile Bitcoin continues to power ahead with innovation and its open-source, peer-reviewed approach and is being rewarded accordingly by the the market.

[qwizzie]

A reminder to all that Dash Evolution is in its fundamentals a very large Dash update that is as of today very much still work in progress.
On January 21/22, 2016 a working model will be demonstrated during the Miami Bitcoin Event, but that will not automatically mean it will
be done and ready for the world .. personally i consider it Alpha stage ready by then.

https://dashtalk.org/threads/development-update-oct-19-2015.6429/

Dash Evolution Development Begins - October 15th, 2015

I will begin work on the new Dash Evolution framework. This consists of the basic architecture,
classes and simply functionality that runs the system.

Dash Evolution Phase II - November 7th, 2015

Private internal development will begin on the Dash Evolution framework.

Dash Evolution Demonstration / Phase III - January 21/22th, 2016*

We will demonstrate what our new technology is about, how it works and why it’s a huge leap
ahead of anything else that exists presently.

* i corrected the date to the actual Miami Bitcoin date(s) as it will be demonstrated then.

Evan did mention when it is done and ready it will be open-sourced, just like everything of Dash is open-sourced.
 

  

[illodin]

XMR price July 2014   $3.35
XMR price today        $0.38

To briefly bring this thread back on topic

DASH price May 2014: $13.50
DASH price today: $2.25

BTC price May 2014: $500
BTC price today: $300

Conveniently leaving out the context. ... Monero

What you call "the contest" i.e. Monero, is off topic to this thread. Please try to stay on topic. iCEBREAKER seems capable of that (as far as I can tell every one of his posts here discussed Dash and Bitcoin). Are you?

Back on topic: Dash has lost nearly all of its value while Bitcoin is quickly recovering a large portion of the value it lost over a similar time period. Dash is NOT a better alternative to Bitcoin based on market performance, which is often cited by Dash proponents as a measure of its success.

And now instead of just leaving out the context editing posts to make the context different that it originally was is approaching forum games I've generally expected from puppets deserving the "Trollero" title. Please don't go there.

When iCEBREAKER invested in some coin other than Dash or Bitcoin is totally irrelevant to this thread, so yes, I'm going to trim that irrelevant context.

No, you changed the quote to make it out to be the context was Monero, when the context originally was one of the reasons why Icebreaker might be angry towards Dash and also his horrible investing skills which should make everyone consider his opinions on Dash very critically.

The reasons why iCEBREAKER might be angry toward Dash and his investing skills (horrible or otherwise) are both off topic.

The topic is "Is Dash a better alternative to Bitcoin?"

How is pointing out his agenda, motive, and horrible investing skills off topic in a Dash thread where he is giving his opinions on Dash? To be informed of the background is important for readers to form a balanced view on the matter.

Instead of making more meta discussion posts in a Dash thread, click the "report to moderator" link on the posts that are offending you with their off topicness.

Try to obsess a bit less about iCEBREAKER.

Making one post in this thread commenting the subject is hardly obsessive. Only after you choosing to reply out of context with a red herring I was forced to clarify the original point. If there is someone obsessed here it is not me.

Meanwhile Bitcoin continues to power ahead with innovation and its open-source, peer-reviewed approach and is being rewarded accordingly by the the market.

Meanwhile in another thread:

I'm 100% convince this is a BTC bubble

Someone on the wall observer thread was talking about some MMM ponzi. I couldn't follow it and I have no idea what effect that might have. Does anyone think that has any merit?

Given the critical role BTC has in trading XMR it seems we ought to understand if there is some large (?) unsustainable factor driving current BTC prices, and how close that might be to reversing.

So in this thread Bitcoin's innovation is rewarded by the market, and in Monero thread it's a ponzi bubble?

[generalizethis]

Meanwhile Bitcoin continues to power ahead with innovation and its open-source, peer-reviewed approach and is being rewarded accordingly by the the market.

Meanwhile in another thread:

I'm 100% convince this is a BTC bubble

Someone on the wall observer thread was talking about some MMM ponzi. I couldn't follow it and I have no idea what effect that might have. Does anyone think that has any merit?

Given the critical role BTC has in trading XMR it seems we ought to understand if there is some large (?) unsustainable factor driving current BTC prices, and how close that might be to reversing.

So in this thread Bitcoin's innovation is rewarded by the market, and in Monero thread it's a ponzi bubble?

Why are you asking Smooth to explain what someone else wrote--and he's questioning himself? Or are you conflating the two*?

*Actually three! It seems you are conflating Hueristic's bubble comment, the comment Smooth is asking about from the WO thread, and Smooth's own opinion via the Monero Speculation Thread.

[smooth]

So in this thread Bitcoin's innovation is rewarded by the market, and in Monero thread it's a ponzi bubble?

It was a question.

What do you think?

If Bitcoin's value is significantly inflated by its use in a large ponzi scheme then perhaps Dash is a better alternative after all.

How would Dash avoid it's price being driven to unsustainable levels by a ponzi scheme?

[CoinNation]

So in this thread Bitcoin's innovation is rewarded by the market, and in Monero thread it's a ponzi bubble?

It was a question.

What do you think?

If Bitcoin's value is significantly inflated by its use in a large ponzi scheme then perhaps Dash is a better alternative after all.

How would Dash avoid it's price being driven to unsustainable levels by a ponzi scheme?

Dash cannot avoid it's price being driven to unsustainable levels by a ponzi scheme. No coin can by itself. Only when the Ponzi cannot continue when it grows too big, it will collapse.

[qwizzie]

http://bitcoin.cex.io/is-bitcoin-a-ponzi-scheme/

What is a Ponzi Scheme?

In short, a Ponzi scheme is a form of financial fraud where a centralized entity takes on investors and then pays those early investors returns from a new influx of investors who come into the scheme at a later date. Most Ponzi schemes offer unrealistic returns for investors until there are no new investors who can be duped into putting their money into the scheme. One of the most notorious examples of this type of investment fraud was recently pulled off by Bernie Madoff. His investment company was exposed as a Ponzi scheme after the financial collapse of 2008 when many of his clients felt like it was time to pull their money out of the Madoff fund. This form of financial fraud is named after Charles Ponzi who was notorious for pulling off these kinds of schemes back in the 1920s.

Does This Argument Apply to Bitcoin? (or any other cryptocurrency)

Now that we understand the definition of a Ponzi scheme, we should be able to decide whether or not the name should be applied to Bitcoin (or any other cryptocurrency). The first thing that should be noticed when it comes to Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme is that there is no Charles Ponzi or Bernie Madoff involved with Bitcoin. In traditional Ponzi schemes, there is an initial collector of funds who promises great returns without much explanation as to what is being done with the client’s money. With Bitcoin, there is no central entity that controls Bitcoin or touts it to new people on a daily basis. The support for Bitcoin was created in a completely organic manner, and there is no individual making investments on behalf of the entire Bitcoin community. Each person is purchasing bitcoins on their own accord, and there isn’t some organization or person controlling all of the money.

In addition to there being no Ponzi behind Bitcoin, there is also no scheme. In a Ponzi scheme, the idea is that you always need new money to pay off old investors. Contrary to the way things work in a Ponzi scheme, there is no need for new investors in Bitcoin. If the number of people speculating on the price of Bitcoin stagnates, then the price will simply remain around the relatively same level without crashing down to zero. There are no payouts that need to be made to Bitcoin holders on a regular basis, so there is no way for a scheme to be exposed.

[MR1]

When there are serious doubts that dash was secretly premined and its dev holds half of the premined coins, dash is unable to be a better alt to BTC.

[coinyoo]

DASH is not a complete alternative but to invest into DASH besides Bitcoin is not a bad idea. i bought some BTC and DASH to distribute my investments.

[qwizzie]

When there are serious doubts that dash was secretly premined and its dev holds half of the premined coins, dash is unable to be a better alt to BTC.

There is no case of premine with Dash .. blockchain proves that.
Please research the definition "premine" a bit more.

[qwizzie]

DASH is not a complete alternative but to invest into DASH besides Bitcoin is not a bad idea. i bought some BTC and DASH to distribute my investments.

yep, its always wise to diversify one's investments....

[smooth]

In a Ponzi scheme, the idea is that you always need new money to pay off old investors.  If the number of people speculating on the price of Bitcoin stagnates, then the price will simply remain around the relatively same level without crashing down to zero. There are no payouts that need to be made to Bitcoin holders on a regular basis, so there is no way for a scheme to be exposed.

This is incorrect. Mining means there is an ongoing supply of new coins that need to be paid for by someone. If the miner keeps them then the miner is paying (i.e. putting in new money) with mining costs, otherwise someone else needs to pay money to the miner to buy them. If there aren't enough buyers then the price will drop until buyers show up. If no one wants to put in new money then the value would in fact drop to near zero.

Whether this meets the holistic definition of ponzi scheme is another question, but you can't deny that new money is need to sustain price in a mined cryptocurrency, because it is.

Anyway, what I was asking about was not whether BTC (or Dash) is itself a ponzi scheme, but whether the current price gains are driven by a rather large external ponzi scheme that is using BTC. The existence of the "MMM" scheme (which has by now become large enough to span several countries) is not in question.

Here is their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzQPrNRVBh6hYOE6uINRHRQ

Here is their founder talking about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRVhYWxhsNI

[qwizzie]

In a Ponzi scheme, the idea is that you always need new money to pay off old investors.  If the number of people speculating on the price of Bitcoin stagnates, then the price will simply remain around the relatively same level without crashing down to zero. There are no payouts that need to be made to Bitcoin holders on a regular basis, so there is no way for a scheme to be exposed.

This is incorrect. Mining means there is an ongoing supply of new coins that need to be paid for by someone. If the miner keeps them then the miner is paying (i.e. putting in new money) with mining costs, otherwise someone else needs to pay money to the miner to buy them. If there aren't enough buyers then the price will drop until buyers show up. If no one wants to put in new money then the value would in fact drop to near zero.

Whether this meets the holistic definition of ponzi scheme is another question, but you can't deny that new money is need to sustain price in a mined cryptocurrency, because it is.

Anyway, what I was asking about was not whether BTC (or Dash) is itself a ponzi scheme, but whether the current price gains are driven by a rather large external ponzi scheme that is using BTC. The existence of the "MMM" scheme (which has by now become large enough to span several countries) is not in question.

Here is their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzQPrNRVBh6hYOE6uINRHRQ

Here is their founder talking about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRVhYWxhsNI

thanks for clarifying that, its an interesting topic.
edit : and i got a bit wiser about MMM .. thanks for the links.

[generalizethis]

When there are serious doubts that dash was secretly premined and its dev holds half of the premined coins, dash is unable to be a better alt to BTC.

There is no case of premine with Dash .. blockchain proves that.
Please research the definition "premine" a bit more.

Quibbling over whether dash qualifies as a premine or an instamine misses the point that some people want to avoid both and shouldn't have to look at the fine print to see that dash does indeed have a heavy front loaded mine that more than likely put a heavy percent of the current coins in the Dev's hands. This is the marketing equivalent of a food company putting sugar free on a product that has a large helping  of corn syrup--sure it's technically correct, but that won't stop someone from diabetes from suing your company for their lost foot or a mother who wants healthy kids from boycotting your products once they realize the truth behind your claim. It's this type of truth of advertising failure that gives cryptos a bad name. Put it in your media or stop claiming, "no one cares," because if you believed no one cared you wouldn't go to such lengths to keep it out of the headlines. All we get is Evan's justifications in a weak attempt to make it more palatable.

If you really thought it didn't matter, you'd put it on your mast head and not think twice--because, as the dash consensus claims, "no one cares."

Do not be surprised if this get deleted--though it is very much on topic on why dash is a horrible alternative to Bitcoin.  

[qwizzie]

Such obsession with the instamine while Dash has moved on and so have their users. Fact is those of us involved with Dash
know about the instamine and just dont care about it anymore.  

For those interested in some facts about the Dash instamine  :

Date : 29 march 2014
https://dashtalk.org/threads/the-birth-of-darkcoin.162/



******* Number of times read : 11999 *******


Date : 11 october 2015
https://dashdot.io/alpha/?page_id=118

In this article, we explore the impact of the “instamine” on the Dash ecosystem. There’s been talk from the very beginning of Dash about the very first 24 hours, 1.9 million coins were issued. We gained access to Evan Duffield to directly answer some questions about the instamine and give us an account of what happened.

Q: Did the instamine happen?

Evan Duffield:“The instamine happened, there is no one disputing that fact. The crypto-community at large has no problem with this except a few who think it’s trying to be hidden in some way. In fact, I posted multiple times about the instamine, first in “The Birth Of Darkcoin” which is an account of the first few weeks of the launch and the mistakes that were made. Recently I also posted spoke about the Instamine in the video “Virtual Corporation”, which considers the concept that it might have been key to Dash’s success, which I believe now.

Date : 21 september 2015
https://www.youtube.com/embed/eEJKZjTx9Bg
time 7:26

I remember buying Dash (Darkcoin back then) in May 2014 at 0.025 & 0.026 BTC with BTC in the $500 range,
do i blame Dash or Bitcoin later on when they both dropped so much in price? No ... i take full responsebility
for my own actions as i was aware about the risks involved with cryptocurrency (central bank's around the world
issued warnings informing us about the risks after all).

[smooth]

Such obsession with the instamine while Dash has moved on and so have their users. Fact is those of us involved with Dash
know about the instamine and just dont care about it anymore.  

There are always insider and outsider perspectives on anything, and a self-selected component to those are are insiders. In other words, you stated it one way, but the other way also applies: Those who don't care about the instamine, or who think it was a good way to launch a coin, are now involved with Dash; those who do care and do not think it was a good way to launch a coin tend to not be involved.

For those interested in some facts about the Dash instamine  :

Date : 29 march 2014
https://dashtalk.org/threads/the-birth-of-darkcoin.162/

Or for those interested in some facts from an 'outsider' rather than 'insider' perspective, where the possibility that it was not an innocent 'accident' and/or can't be shown to have been an accident is given more exposure:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=999886.0

3. That Evan misled people into thinking that the launch would not happen for days (and specifically "definitely" not in "hours"), then it happened in a few hours, late at night in the US and during the early morning hours in Europe. Considering the >500K coins mined in the very first hour alone, the effect of this "ambush" was enormous.

4. That the stated reason for delaying the launch for days was to do more testing and fix bugs. Yet when the coin was lunched it still had a "serious error." Why was the rushed ambush launch done in this manner?

5. That Evan withheld information about the purpose, features, and goals of he coin development until after the instamine was complete. It was absolutely impossible for you to have any reason to mine this coin unless your strategy was to mine 100% of new coins that were launched, you just happened to stumble into it, you were friends with Evan, or you were Evan. In effect it turns the instamine into a premine, because the coins were mined before the coin was properly announced.

or a more recent take on it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1220064.msg12795405#msg12795405

And these people could not have foreseen that Xcoin(which Dash was built upon) was going to get any value at all.

That is true for most people. But someone who knew that it had actual development plans would have a far, far better chance to conclude this than people operating in the dark (no pun intended). The only people with this enormous advantage were Evan and people working with Evan.

[qwizzie]

Appearently we have conflicting views on the matter, we have Dash's view on the matter which is explained in great detail and accepted by the Dash community
(who are the one's actually financially involved with this cryptocurrency) and we have the view on this matter by one of many Dash's competitors.
I will leave it with that