Information needed on Bitcoin business

[Graet]

in #bitcoin-dev some discussion of the foundation is taking place

slush raised an interesting question - I would like to put it to the wider community
<quote>
<slush1> well, better question: How many bitcoin businesses are *real* companies?
</quote>

I registered my pool as a business shortly after opening in June 2011.

I figured it would be harder for my government to shut the pool down if it was legally registered and following regulations/tax laws etc than operating unregistered and avoiding regulation and tax.
I also thought it could be seen as a commitment to continue - it takes time and money to properly set up a business and more time and money to wind it up (in my country anyway)...

So I'd be interested to hear from Bitcoin business owners, tell us if you are or are not a registered business and why you have chosen your course.
For unregistered businesses do you have plans  on how to continue if you're government does take a hard look at you and your operations.

Bitcoin users can have a say on whether they prefer to deal with a registered business or an anonymous nick - or just don't care

Would prefer if thread could stay on topic

Thanks
Graeme Tee
Ozcoin pooled Mining Pty Ltd
ACN: 152 509 272

[Graet]

I think it depends on the owner, I see more and more people taking that route and registering, but I think if accept bitcoins and send bitcoins only, so your not dealing in fiat currency, I think you be fine by not registering.

yes, that's why I asked how many are, and of those not could they give us their reasons

[TangibleCryptography]

Tangible Cryptography LLC ("FastCash4Bitcoins", "Bitcoins Direct", "Cell Coin") is a registered Virginia Limited Liability Company.

The reason? Operating a business without creating a independent legal entity is just foolish/risky.  If nothing else the fact that a sole proprietorship has unlimited personal liability should be enough of a reason.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

BitPay, Inc.  is a registered Delaware C Corp.

[markm]

Well how much better is it, really, do do business with people who avoid liability for their actions?

Seems like kids are the most responsible people, being responsible to their parents and other adults; adults less responsible maybe, then into corporations deliberately designed to let people avoid responsibility then at the top to the politicians who are not even liable for the lives they take by creating laws saying its ok to kill people, or to starve people to death, or whatever they heck else that they cannot be held liable for.

So while from a selfish personal perspective being totally un-liable sounds great, I am not so sure how helpful it really is to the consumers / customers?

-MarkM-

[jgarzik]

exMULTI, Inc. is a registered, tax paying North Carolina corporation, solely dedicated to bitcoins.

One person company, too.  No shadow investors or mysterious step fathers involved, just me

[wersaup]

Didnt register any business so far - for once because I'm not making enough profit/sales volume to have to register a business yet, and asides from that its a better idea to run it private - I simply couldnt provide a "no questions asked" business from my country. I'd have to log my customers IP addresses, and I'd have to keep their mail addresses, which conflicts with my idea of privacy, which is basically only keep what's needed, dont use cookies, delete stuff as soon as you dont need it any more.

[Aaiiit]

Interesting question.
Planning on starting a btc project, don't know if it's advised to register or not.

[CoinLab]

CoinLab, Inc. is a registered Delaware Corp, which operates out of Seattle, WA.

[BitcoinINV]

exMULTI, Inc. is a registered, tax paying North Carolina corporation, solely dedicated to bitcoins.

One person company, too.  No shadow investors or mysterious step fathers involved, just me

What part of NC you in? Im registered to take and collect taxes with the N.C.

If I do LLC. Do formal incorp it will be in Delaware.

[TheKoziTwo]

I already own one company and will be probably launch another for my upcoming bitcoin business, however the only reason I choose to do that is because I need to deal with non-bitcoin providers. I really don't have much choice, it's either that or nothing. I'm a strong believer in the counter-economy, the black market, agorist trade and will embrace and support those who take this route.

Why on earth would you want to regulate your otherwise free business through making a company subject to stupid laws, regulations, taxes and accounting obligations? (yeah yeah, you're still technically subject to them anyways, but isn't that the whole point of bitcoin? Having business freedom?)

If anything I think it will be easier for your government to shut you down if you're running a business. E-gold?

[jgarzik]

Why on earth would you want to regulate your otherwise free business through making a company subject to stupid laws, regulations, taxes and accounting obligations? (yeah yeah, you're still technically subject to them anyways, but isn't that the whole point of bitcoin? Having business freedom?)

Because the majority of customers and businesses are law-abiding in their country.  If you want to reach a mass of customers, you play by the rules.

[TheKoziTwo]

Why on earth would you want to regulate your otherwise free business through making a company subject to stupid laws, regulations, taxes and accounting obligations? (yeah yeah, you're still technically subject to them anyways, but isn't that the whole point of bitcoin? Having business freedom?)

Because the majority of customers and businesses are law-abiding in their country.  If you want to reach a mass of customers, you play by the rules.

It matters when your business needs to be involved with non-bitcoin businesses, true, however with bitcoin only business you can still reach mass customers (limited by the bitcoin market of course) without being legal.

[kangasbros]

My services (easywallet.org and localbitcoins.com) belong to a registered company in Finland, and we pay taxes etc. However revenue is so small, that it doesn't matter much, but anyway.

Although I'm considering moving the business elsewhere, since the goverment officials are not giving me much guidance how to pay those taxes and so on.

[wersaup]

Why on earth would you want to regulate your otherwise free business through making a company subject to stupid laws, regulations, taxes and accounting obligations? (yeah yeah, you're still technically subject to them anyways, but isn't that the whole point of bitcoin? Having business freedom?)

Because the majority of customers and businesses are law-abiding in their country.  If you want to reach a mass of customers, you play by the rules.

That might be right for some businesses. My customers are probably NOT law-abiding citizens in their country. That doesnt mean they're bad people, on my standpoint it's just the law that is wrong.
This is also the best reason to buy their products from me, since I wont ask questions, and they have the choice to get their products no questions asked, and with an untracable(if they do it right) source of money. Just because I stumbled upon this thread, I asked my lawyer what I'd need to do to my customers if I registered bit-host.tk as a legal business:
1 - Log their IP Address for up to 6 weeks
2 - Log their E-Mail Address as recipient(for tax stuff)
3 - ask them to provide an e-mail address even where none is needed
4 - Have an imprint, making my personal identity vulnerable to greedy lawyers
5 - Have an extra Button with the writing "Buy this now for money" or stuff
6 - keep records of the bitcoin addresses used
7 - drastically increase my prices, because the sources of my product would fall out
... some more nonsense stuff that'd turn a 2-step purchase process into a complicated adventure
However, since my profits keep below the reporting threshold, I dont really have to register a business yet. I'm still legal.

As for liabilities, which were listed as a pro-incorporation argument here, my business doesnt really have any risks. I have some measures in place to prevent loss, meaning that bitcoins never really touch my site, and I keep only reasonable stock amounts there. That combined with thoughtful programming should probably do the trick.

However I acknowledge that there's some different business models here, that make incorporation become a logical step. TangibleCryptography's business for example - with him being registered, we have at least some kind of insurance(no offense here, I know your feedback, I used your service, and I consider it trustworthy and legit) that he isnt another coin-exchanger kind of guy

[Cablez]

I am sure that there are plenty of others like me whose business is so small that it makes no sense to go the registered route.  Well that and I don't deal in fiat of any sort.

[BitcoinINV]

If you live in the U.S. and sell anything, with a income of more then 6k you are required to claim taxes on it. Below 6k is considered a "hobby business". It makes it easy to claim a tax deduction, bought equipment? why not get some of the money back at the end of the year?

[allthingsluxury]

All Things Luxury is a registered business. We have been since 2010. Just recently started accepting bitcoins as an additional form of payment. We are loving it so far, and have received some strong support from the community already.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Bitcoil is a registered business, but not a company. A business because trying to do this under the radar isn't scalable; not a company because at this point it's too much overhead for too little benefit.

While formally the business is about a Bitcoin exchange service, all my other activities are indirectly encompassed under its umbrella.

[elux]

This is a Graet initiative. (If you'll excuse the pun.)

I will feel much more comfortable doing business with your real, registered businesses that are operated by real, known people. I will do my business with you, much in preference to those who would insist on staying anonymous and untraceable -- as any sufficiently anonymous business is liable to close shop at their whim, and disappear at any moment -- along with whatever claims are being held against them.

If I have any choice in the matter, you will be the ones to claim my coin. Legitimacy through accountability is clearly needed for the Bitcoin business world to grow and and expand beyond whatever small commitments "one can afford to lose" at any time. Hopefully, as people are starting to realize this, you guys will win, and the scammers will simply leave.

Thanks for doing this!