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Author Topic: Blockchain without bitcoin. Can it work?  (Read 2293 times)
Wary
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July 28, 2015, 10:21:50 PM
 #1

Idea of blockchain without bitcoin is becoming quite common nowadays. It's even getting discussed by banks and other mainstream heavyweight players. However, it doesn't make a sense for me. For blockchain to be reliable store of anything, it must be supported by some expensive process, like mining. And the most expensive mining is bitcoin mining. So if you want to store some valuable data in a blockchain, it must be bitcoin blockchain. Am I right or am missing something?

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July 28, 2015, 10:25:14 PM
 #2

I think you are right... there's got to be rewards on a blockchain for people in general to mine, and not just an organization (it would be something centralized if only one group of people mined in it). People have even proposed a blockchain keeping track of important documents or a blockchain that validates medicines and rules out counterfeit ones. I'm not sure how blockchains like that would work without a real incentive... Only some would mine.

Let's see what the future brings Smiley Maybe the future is simply including these things on the Bitcoin blockchain
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July 28, 2015, 10:26:45 PM
 #3

6000 nodes.
no reward.


so, yes ... people can install somes software for free bandwith, sometimes ...
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July 28, 2015, 10:29:12 PM
 #4

I think we have barely scratched the surface of what can be done with blockchain technology.

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July 28, 2015, 10:35:17 PM
 #5

I guess it could work in theory, but what would be the means of securing it. With bitcoin on top of blockchain, we have mining power that ensures it's security, where
miners have the incentive to do their part in securing the blockchain by getting bitcoin as reward.
In a system where there's no reward, there would be no mining power to secure it, so the blockchain would have to be adapted in some way to block that, but i guess it's doable.

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July 28, 2015, 10:58:14 PM
 #6

6000 nodes.
no reward
.

so, yes ... people can install somes software for free bandwith, sometimes ...
Maybe that's why number of nodes keeps decreasing? I think it's a bitcoin's weak point and support Justus Ranvier suggestion to monetize nodes https://bitcoinism.liberty.me/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-2-price-discovery/

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July 28, 2015, 11:09:08 PM
 #7

Of course it can
many people think that blockchain is potentially useful but domt see future in bitcoin
mainly it would be useful for banks
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July 29, 2015, 06:02:53 AM
 #8

until proven otherwise, this is just chasing ghosts.

ordinary distributed computing is not a blockchain.

Bitcoin and its blockchain solves the problem of distributed consensus.
Trying to apply this tool to solve other problems is like using a screwdriver to
hit a nail.

I could be wrong but so far I haven't seen how anything resembling
bitcoins' blockchain can work without a native token.

a lot of talk about it but nothing concrete.

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July 29, 2015, 06:45:50 AM
 #9

i don't think so that blockchain would be worth it without bitcoin

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July 29, 2015, 06:55:10 AM
 #10

Non bitcoins coins have blockchains and not all are PoW, so why would you need BTC?

The block chain is just newer ledger technology, there is no reason for banks to be unable to incorporate concepts based on bitcoin.
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July 29, 2015, 06:57:11 AM
 #11

i don't think so that blockchain would be worth it without bitcoin
Bank dont need to adopt blockchain, just its technology, which they have thought that the technology is the best in transaction and as wallet so far. Maybe they will make "the other blockchain" for their customers, and no doubt about they will make higher fee for it.

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July 29, 2015, 07:25:29 AM
 #12

blockchain without bitcoin would simply become an altcoin which is using a similar technology to bitcoin. and i don't think it has any effect on bitcoin.

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July 29, 2015, 07:34:04 AM
 #13

Non bitcoins coins have blockchains and not all are PoW, so why would you need BTC?

The block chain is just newer ledger technology, there is no reason for banks to be unable to incorporate concepts based on bitcoin.

Yes, but what they would have would be a an intranet ledger for their own use. And if it has no token of worth attached to it then it's simply the same as programming whatever you like into an intranet ledger. That's not really a blockchain. That's just a cheaper banking system (for them.)
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July 29, 2015, 08:04:26 AM
 #14

Non bitcoins coins have blockchains and not all are PoW, so why would you need BTC?

The block chain is just newer ledger technology, there is no reason for banks to be unable to incorporate concepts based on bitcoin.

Yes, but what they would have would be a an intranet ledger for their own use. And if it has no token of worth attached to it then it's simply the same as programming whatever you like into an intranet ledger. That's not really a blockchain. That's just a cheaper banking system (for them.)

Huh, the banks would use it for the Dollar as an internal ledger, yes. Using block chain technology. They could develop that into many things. If your definition of blockchain is "not a blockchain if there's no cryptocoin attached" sure, but that's not what the blockchain is.

You don't need bitcoin to generate blocks of transactions and have internal nodes accept/reject.
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July 29, 2015, 09:11:57 AM
 #15

There has to be an  incentive for why you are burning your electricity and running the miners to keep up the chain. It does not have to be money directly, so a blockchain without bitcoin can work if the use of a blockchain justify the costs it involves an gives results, like in research or keeping things secure at any cost.

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July 29, 2015, 11:19:25 AM
 #16

I think the idea is to have a decentralized ledger system between different banks, but within the same group. They already have enough computers in all their branches to host nodes. They plan to have a private ledger system without a token.

Miners are rewarded by Bitcoins, but this ledger system needs no rewards. It's a reward on it's own, because it saves the banks millions. They can use one system/ledger to carry more than one function. It can also be adapted to carry a token for money transfers between banks. 

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July 29, 2015, 01:12:22 PM
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Blockchain technology is for BTC transfer. I do not think any bank can use it, they use own international bank transfer  Wink
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July 29, 2015, 05:47:21 PM
 #18

Non bitcoins coins have blockchains and not all are PoW, so why would you need BTC?

The block chain is just newer ledger technology, there is no reason for banks to be unable to incorporate concepts based on bitcoin.

Yes, but what they would have would be a an intranet ledger for their own use. And if it has no token of worth attached to it then it's simply the same as programming whatever you like into an intranet ledger. That's not really a blockchain. That's just a cheaper banking system (for them.)

Huh, the banks would use it for the Dollar as an internal ledger, yes. Using block chain technology. They could develop that into many things. If your definition of blockchain is "not a blockchain if there's no cryptocoin attached" sure, but that's not what the blockchain is.

You don't need bitcoin to generate blocks of transactions and have internal nodes accept/reject.

Which means it's not a blockchain, no? No matter Bitcoin or some other token, it needs a for a token transaction to 'imprint', so to speak. Without that, it's just consensus software and not a blockchain.

For dollars to be the token - and they would have to have some kind of token - they'd effectively have to earmark X amount of dollars and digitize them (ya, I make myself laugh by saying this bearing in mind many already are digitized and have never been 'incarnated' physically) and have them function as a token for the hashed blocks.

I'm not saying that some other consensus software can't/won't be developed, but it can't be called a blockchain in the Bitcoin definition of the word surely? And surely the Bitcoin definition of 'blockchain' should be the benchmark?

Hashing/Mining = Empty block + Tokens > Token + Transaction = filled blocks & Consensus = blockchain

If it's not as above, then I'll have to say I then have no idea what exactly a blockchain would be.



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July 29, 2015, 07:55:14 PM
 #19

Non bitcoins coins have blockchains and not all are PoW, so why would you need BTC?

The block chain is just newer ledger technology, there is no reason for banks to be unable to incorporate concepts based on bitcoin.

Yes, but what they would have would be a an intranet ledger for their own use. And if it has no token of worth attached to it then it's simply the same as programming whatever you like into an intranet ledger. That's not really a blockchain. That's just a cheaper banking system (for them.)

Huh, the banks would use it for the Dollar as an internal ledger, yes. Using block chain technology. They could develop that into many things. If your definition of blockchain is "not a blockchain if there's no cryptocoin attached" sure, but that's not what the blockchain is.

You don't need bitcoin to generate blocks of transactions and have internal nodes accept/reject.

a blockchain is a public ledger not an internal one.  if its internal to some system, then it's just a ledger.  you can call it whatever you want, you can even add blocks and cryptography but what would be the point?

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July 29, 2015, 08:16:12 PM
 #20

I can easily imagine other blockchains driving other things than bitcoin (or currency) and driven by other income sources than mining.
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