Bitcoin Forum
December 12, 2017, 01:29:46 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin is the undisputed global public ledger, but we need a private one too.  (Read 1513 times)
americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 01, 2015, 10:32:36 PM
 #1

This is a topic that many may disagree on, but math is not an opinion.  
  
Pseudo-privacy is not privacy.  And it is not good enough.  
  
Can you imagine an internet where everyone could see everyone else's browsing history?  And if you *did* want a respite you needed to publicly login to some scrambling service, which would only invite further scrutiny?  But this is the state of bitcoin today.  
  
However don't get me wrong.  I believe that there will always be a need for a global public ledger, and I see little reason why it shouldn't be bitcoin in perpetuity (properly upgraded and guided as it goes forward).  I am still amazed that we have an absolute digital way to time stamp something such that no one can refute when a message occured, and that is thanks to bitcoin.  But when it comes to functioning as an actual currency, bitcoin is woefully inadequate:  
  
 
  



Not only is this an unacceptable level of transparency for criminals, but it is also unacceptable for business, government, and honestly any normal individual.  
  
Those of you who know me also know what truly anonymous cryptocurrency I think will become that undisputed private ledger, but I'm not here to shill. I'm here to debate the fact that our civilization cannot run off bitcoin alone: at least one (possibly more) blockchains are necessary provided they offer something radically different that bitcoin cannot.  
  
And true privacy is one of those essential things, which is why not only will the future shock and surprise banks, it's probably going to shock and surprise bitcoiners too.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
1513042186
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513042186

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513042186
Reply with quote  #2

1513042186
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1513042186
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513042186

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513042186
Reply with quote  #2

1513042186
Report to moderator
5dollarbill
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 10:44:20 PM
 #2

if we have a private ledger, people doing illicit activities will simply go there, and nobody will know a thing of what they're doing...

governments can just carry on putting money that's not their in their pocket:

Not only is this an unacceptable level of transparency for criminals, but it is also unacceptable for business, government, and honestly any normal individual.

no honest government has anything to fear towards their citizens, and a government should be transparent. a private ledger won't do anyone any good, they'll keep on putting money under the carpet as they do now. for a private ledger we already have fiat...

i seriously don't think it would be any good. it would be destroying what bitcoin has accomplished so far.
Patel
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1279



View Profile WWW
August 01, 2015, 11:08:35 PM
 #3

The private ledger is called Monero.

Uses ring signatures. Out of all the different private alt coins, and there's many good ones, Monero is the most simplest and private.

americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:09:24 PM
 #4

My God.... the things you said are at Billy Madison level, but I'm going to be civil and give them a proper response.


if we have a private ledger, people doing illicit activities will simply go there, and nobody will know a thing of what they're doing...  
 
  
So we shouldn't have new and better technology because then the criminals will use it?  Wat?  "Why should you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?" 
 
So we should do away with bitcoin too because the criminals are apparently using that.  As you can see, this makes no sense both logically and historically.  
  
governments can just carry on putting money that's not their in their pocket:

no honest government has anything to fear towards their citizens, and a government should be transparent. a private ledger won't do anyone any good, they'll keep on putting money under the carpet as they do now. for a private ledger we already have fiat...  
 
  
Unfortunately, sometimes governments need privacy too.  I know that might blow your mind, but global politics is a giant chess/poker game and there's simply no way to make everyone play open and honest.  Even if we were united under one world government, sub-factions within that government would all fight in the shadows to control it.  
  
Organizations will pit themselves against each other, and this is our natural tendency.  The games they play will consist of public moves and private moves, and both are necessary.  
  
If citizens don't want their government dealing in private currency, they can just pass a law forbidding them from doing so.  If this truly is a better way to run a government, then that government should quickly dominate all others because of openness and transparency.  

i seriously don't think it would be any good. it would be destroying what bitcoin has accomplished so far.
 
  
It would be a natural extension and evolution of what bitcoin has accomplished so far.  If bitcoin was anti-privacy it would record IP addresses with each transaction.  Unfortunately, the technology to have truly anonymous peer-to-peer transactions did not exist in 2008.  It only came into existence in 2014.  
  
Welcome to the future; you're living in it.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
newIndia
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:10:50 PM
 #5

We already have many private ledger. They are called FIAT and stored in Bank's DB. Private... No ?

americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:16:18 PM
 #6

We already have many private ledger. They are called FIAT and stored in Bank's DB. Private... No ?
 
  
They are absolutely not private.  And they are certainly not decentralized.  
  
Quote
Snoop Dogg stopped by Italian police and $211,000 cash seized
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/aug/01/snoop-dogg-stopped-italian-police-cash-seized  
 
 
Quote
 
This is utterly unacceptable.  If a man or organization holds money, no one should be able to deprive them of that money without a fair trial.  
  
And private?  Really?  Kidding me?  What do you think would happen if someone tried to transfer $400,000 to a foreign bank account?  A TON of flags would have gone up and both governments would want to know why money was being transferred.  
  
Fiat is about as NOT private as you can get.  
  

 
  
The significance of this cannot be overstated:  For the first time in all of human history, we have truly anonymous, decentralized, digital currency.  That has never happened before, and it only came into existence in 2014.  This is as big of a deal as the original bitcoin was, and possibly more.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
maokoto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770


✪ NEXCHANGE | BTC, LTC, ETH & DOGE ✪


View Profile WWW
August 01, 2015, 11:18:34 PM
 #7

For me Bicoin has enough privacy. I do not think there is a very good reason to have even more for the general public...

americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:35:08 PM
 #8

For me Bicoin has enough privacy. I do not think there is a very good reason to have even more for the general public...
 
 
Will you please post a copy of your bank statements for the past three months? 
 
I'm curious about a few things, and I'd like to take a look at them.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
5dollarbill
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:48:56 PM
 #9

My God.... the things you said are at Billy Madison level, but I'm going to be civil and give them a proper response.


if we have a private ledger, people doing illicit activities will simply go there, and nobody will know a thing of what they're doing...  
 
  
So we shouldn't have new and better technology because then the criminals will use it?  Wat?  "Why should you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?" 
 
So we should do away with bitcoin too because the criminals are apparently using that.  As you can see, this makes no sense both logically and historically.  
  
governments can just carry on putting money that's not their in their pocket:

no honest government has anything to fear towards their citizens, and a government should be transparent. a private ledger won't do anyone any good, they'll keep on putting money under the carpet as they do now. for a private ledger we already have fiat...  
 
  
Unfortunately, sometimes governments need privacy too.  I know that might blow your mind, but global politics is a giant chess/poker game and there's simply no way to make everyone play open and honest.  Even if we were united under one world government, sub-factions within that government would all fight in the shadows to control it.  
  
Organizations will pit themselves against each other, and this is our natural tendency.  The games they play will consist of public moves and private moves, and both are necessary.  
  
If citizens don't want their government dealing in private currency, they can just pass a law forbidding them from doing so.  If this truly is a better way to run a government, then that government should quickly dominate all others because of openness and transparency.  

i seriously don't think it would be any good. it would be destroying what bitcoin has accomplished so far.
 
  
It would be a natural extension and evolution of what bitcoin has accomplished so far.  If bitcoin was anti-privacy it would record IP addresses with each transaction.  Unfortunately, the technology to have truly anonymous peer-to-peer transactions did not exist in 2008.  It only came into existence in 2014.  
  
Welcome to the future; you're living in it.

we should have better technology when this new tech improves the current one, not when it goes back a few years.
criminals may wish to use Bitcoin if they want it: knowing all their transactions are recorded in a public ledger and cannot be altered or tampered with in any way


exactly as you say: politics is a giant chess game. this is precisely what we want to avoid for many, many years and so far we could not, the biggest problem being money expenditure. politicians spend fortunes (sums of money that we don't know for sure how high they go) for campaigns and promises they will never deliver. if this is the government you want and consider this "a natural tendency" then feel free to support them, and keep using fiat currencies. this definitely not the government I want.

as for laws, citizens do not pass them, governments do. do you think any government will allow such a law? they aren't honest and open because it's easier just to steal and fade away



the natural extension to you seems to be banksters handling fiat. this introduces human error and we could speak about that for quite a long time, but you've already enumerated examples. people are two faced while handling fiat, avoid leaks of what doesn't matter to be leaked. Bitcoin is not anti privacy, it enforces privacy if you use it correctly. math might not be an opinion, that's for sure... but it is indeed a fact.
ransomer
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:52:10 PM
 #10

For me Bicoin has enough privacy. I do not think there is a very good reason to have even more for the general public...
 
 
Will you please post a copy of your bank statements for the past three months? 
 
I'm curious about a few things, and I'd like to take a look at them.

Sometimes exaggeration proves nothing.

"I like ice cream"

.... Okay, then eat 6 pounds of icecream every day for 6 months and tell me again you like it..!!!

Now, I have proven that you don't actually like icecream.....

Or not...
futureofbitcoin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 308


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:53:25 PM
 #11

if we have a private ledger, people doing illicit activities will simply go there, and nobody will know a thing of what they're doing...

governments can just carry on putting money that's not their in their pocket:

no honest government has anything to fear towards their citizens, and a government should be transparent. a private ledger won't do anyone any good, they'll keep on putting money under the carpet as they do now. for a private ledger we already have fiat...


What you said is true, and a completely private blockchain will be used for a lot of such activities, and tax evasion.

But if cryptocurrencies become widely accepted in the future, such a blockchain will 100% be developed for such purposes anyway. It's not something you can prevent.

The question is, are you going to cash in on the profit, or are you going to watch on the sidelines?

Meuh6879
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456



View Profile
August 01, 2015, 11:55:12 PM
 #12

Bitcoin is private.



Use bitmixer regulary ...  Cheesy



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloHVKk7DHk
americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:01:03 AM
 #13


we should have better technology when this new tech improves the current one, not when it goes back a few years.
criminals may wish to use Bitcoin if they want it: knowing all their transactions are recorded in a public ledger and cannot be altered or tampered with in any way 
 
 
This isn't about enabling criminals; stop trying to divert the issue.  This is about enabling ALL citizens to have the privacy they deserve. 
 
Do you think that an individual should not have the right to privacy?  Would you consent to a CCTV being installed in your house, and a monthly checkup of your house by law enforcement officers? 


exactly as you say: politics is a giant chess game. this is precisely what we want to avoid for many, many years and so far we could not, the biggest problem being money expenditure. politicians spend fortunes (sums of money that we don't know for sure how high they go) for campaigns and promises they will never deliver. if this is the government you want and consider this "a natural tendency" then feel free to support them, and keep using fiat currencies. this definitely not the government I want.

as for laws, citizens do not pass them, governments do. do you think any government will allow such a law? they aren't honest and open because it's easier just to steal and fade away 
 
 
This is as flawed as the argument about criminals.  We cannot resist a superior technology that enforces a fundamental human right just because some might abuse it.  If you believe government should be transparent, fight that separate battle. 
 
But that doesn't mean we don't still need a global private ledger. 
 
the natural extension to you seems to be banksters handling fiat. this introduces human error and we could speak about that for quite a long time, but you've already enumerated examples. people are two faced while handling fiat, avoid leaks of what doesn't matter to be leaked. Bitcoin is not anti privacy, it enforces privacy if you use it correctly. math might not be an opinion, that's for sure... but it is indeed a fact.
 
 
No, not at all. 
 
Fiat is made up make-believe money by a central authority.  Crypto is mathematically secured decentralized money that people choose to place faith in willingly. 
 
And a truly anonymous cryptocurrency is inevitable.  I'm not here to debate the future of money with you; the rise of a decentralized anonymous global ledger is inevitable, and no amount of debating we do will stop it.  I'm simply letting you know what's coming. 
 
But feel free to complain about it some more and claim that only bad guys need privacy.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:03:02 AM
 #14


Sometimes exaggeration proves nothing.

"I like ice cream"

.... Okay, then eat 6 pounds of icecream every day for 6 months and tell me again you like it..!!!

Now, I have proven that you don't actually like icecream.....

Or not...
 
  
It's not an exaggeration.  Using available tools it is completely possible to do a near total analysis on your bitcoin spending habits.  Why do you think companies like Coinbase lock accounts that they deem are engaging in "suspicious" activity?  In the future this process will only become more trivial.  
  
So when you support bitcoin as "good-enough" privacy, what you are really saying is that you don't mind all your transactions being completely open to scrutiny for the public.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:07:10 AM
 #15


What you said is true, and a completely private blockchain will be used for a lot of such activities, and tax evasion.

But if cryptocurrencies become widely accepted in the future, such a blockchain will 100% be developed for such purposes anyway. It's not something you can prevent.

The question is, are you going to cash in on the profit, or are you going to watch on the sidelines?
 
  
Fire will be used for a lot of activities too, such as arson.  So it's not fair to compare technology to nefarious uses, otherwise bitcoin needs to be banned right now for being used on the Silk Road.  Then we need to ban the internet.  Then we need to ban personal computers.... etc, etc.  Pretty soon we will all be safe by candlelight.  
  
And one such a blockchain does already exist, and has since early 2014.  As far as "cashing in", its an unfortunately truth that to launch a decentralized currency that has a chance to be globally adopted, someone has to get rich.  It would be nice if this weren't the case, but sadly human greed ensures that isn't so.  
  
So yes, I will try to 'profit', but I will also try to be more responsible and humanitarian about my future wealth than the current crop of gillionaires are.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:10:23 AM
 #16

Bitcoin is private.



Use bitmixer regulary ...  Cheesy



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloHVKk7DHk
 
  
It is important to understand that pseudo-anonymity is NOT good enough.  
  
For an easy to understand example of this, consider our current Internet.  If you seek out anonymity-centric tools or try to reclaim some of your privacy, you are automatically assumed to be "suspicious".  
  
Quote
 
  
This is why a truly anonymous currency is essential, and what is essential and available is inevitable.

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
QuestionAuthority
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722


You lead and I'll watch you walk away.


View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:24:36 AM
 #17

Here's a fully anonymous ledger that works right now.



And you put this in it.




Here's the alternate ledger. LOL


Pab
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204



View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:28:30 AM
 #18

Will be new cryptocurrencys,one already exist,one is coming in 40 days,not  blockchain based,realy inovative
but world is calling for transparency,to much things related to money have been hided and frauded


              ▄▄████████████▄▄             
          ▄███▀▀▀░░░░░░░░░░▀▀▀███▄▄         
       ▄██▀▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▀██▄       
     ▄██▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▀███     
   ▄██▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄▄▄▄█████████████▄   
  ▄██░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄█████████░░░░░░░░░░░░▀█▌ 
 ▐██░░░░░░░░▄█████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀████▄░░░░░░░░▀█▌
▐██░░░░░░▄███▀▀███████████████▀▀██▄░░░░░░██▌
████▄░░▄██▀███████▄██████▄████████▀██▄░░░▐██
██░▀████▀██████████████████████████████▄░░██
██░░░▀██▄█████████████████████████▄██▀▀██▄██
██▌░░░░▀███▄████████▀▀▀▀███████▄██▀░░░░░▀███
▐██░░░░░░░▀███▄▄███████████▄▄██▀▀░░░░░░░░██▌
 ▐██░░░░░░░░░░▀▀████████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░▄█▌
  ▀██▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄████████▀▀▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄█▌ 
   ▀███▀▀▀▀▀▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄██▀   
     ▀██▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄██▀     
       ▀███▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄██▀       
          ▀████▄▄░░░░░░░░░░▄▄▄███▀         
              ▀▀▀██████████▀▀▀             

     
                         [ Website ]                     
     
americanpegasus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 02, 2015, 12:37:37 AM
 #19

Here's the alternate ledger. LOL
 
 
I'm confused.  Are you talking about cold wallets? 
 
OK, let's say you have the equivalent of $80,000,000 stored in a cold wallet.  One day you decide to transfer the amount in that cold wallet to your mother, across the world. 
 
*Everyone* can see this happening, live.  What's more, they can even tell that those coins haven't moved in a while.  The amount of analysis that can be done on your transaction is a very deep rabbit hole. 
 
*Or*....  You could just use an anonymous cryptocurrency instead and have true anonymity from the start.
 

Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
Eastfist
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile WWW
August 02, 2015, 12:44:02 AM
 #20

It is public by design. There's a certain psychology behind it. When no one's watching the watchmen, then you can only rely on math. It gives untrusting parties something to agree upon. That's how it's designed. The mediator of all disputes is right there on the blockchain for all to see.
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!