CEO who raised workers’ minimum pay to $70K hits predictable problems

[Wilikon]

Do you remember that millennial CEO from Seattle who raised the salaries of all of his employees to at least $70K to combat income inequality? That was a really inspirational story for many in the SJW movement and made Dan Price a sort of sainted figure among liberals as he paved the way toward a more fair and equal future. Unfortunately, as many conservative, free market analysts predicted at the time, such generosity can come at a cost. And now the young entrepreneur seems to be hitting the reality wall.


The Seattle CEO who reaped a publicity bonanza when he boosted the salaries of his employees to a minimum of $70,000 a year says he has fallen on hard times.

Dan Price, 31, tells the New York Times that things have gotten so bad he’s been forced to rent out his house.

Only three months ago Price was generating headlines—and accusations of being a socialist — when he announced the new salary minimum for all 120 employees at his Gravity Payments credit card processing firm. Price said he was doing it, and slashing his $1 million pay package to pay for it, to address the wealth gap.

“I’m working as hard as I ever worked to make it work,” he told the Times in a video that shows him sitting on a plastic bucket in the garage of his house. “I’m renting out my house right now to try and make ends meet myself.”



The fact that Mr. Price himself is cutting corners in his personal life really has nothing to do with this story. It was his own choice to slash his salary and he is the only one responsible for his home budget. So be it. But he describes a number of other woes which were not only predictable, but probably unavoidable. First of all, some of his higher performing workers have quit. Why? Because people who were “just clocking in and out” with the “least skills” (as one former employee put it) got huge raises while the top talent got little or nothing. This is similar to a theme we’ve discussed here before, such as the backlash we can expect from people who have skilled labor jobs paying 15 or 16 dollars an hour when they suddenly see the guy running the fry machine getting the same thing.

Long time customers also bailed out on Gravity either because of disagreements with his politicized business policies or fears that he was raising his rates to cover his generous employee compensation package. The other person who is up in arms is the CEO’s own brother who is currently taking him to court. The sibling is a 30% partner in the firm and is watching the value of his investment (and his own income) melting away before his eyes. What is an investor supposed to do when the CEO suddenly appears to lose their mind and begins giving away all the company profits and crashing their revenue forecasts?

I’m sure Mr. Price is a very nice man and he clearly cares about people in general. But his move to push his generous nature into his business model is returning precisely the sort of results which the free market predicts.


http://hotair.com/archives/2015/08/02/ceo-who-raised-workers-minimum-pay-to-70k-hits-predictable-problems/

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[Sourgummies]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

[Wilikon]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

[criptix]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

[koshgel]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

[criptix]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

i can accept this argument if they would get a higher salary somewhere else and if it is a comparison between lazy and hardworking.
but if this is not the case i can only assume it is just simply emotional reasons.

i mean for example the less skilled worker on machine x, which is easier to handle, would still need to give 100% to do his work, exactly like the skilled worker on machine y, which is more difficult to handle.
in this example the working for both of them would be the same.

i hope i could make my thinkings somewhat clear.

[CEG5952]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

It was so predictable. I'm pretty sure he's done the math. I don't even think Virgin company would be wiling to pay that much despite the fact that they're a huge company.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

i can accept this argument if they would get a higher salary somewhere else.
but if this is not the case i can only assume it is just simply emotional reasons.

greed and jealousy.

I think it may have been emotional. But you're shooting in the wrong direction: Contempt, feeling belittled and annoyance at the boss.

If you do the best, and you see those sliding by now getting the same amount. You're not going to be jealous, you have what they have. You're not going to feel greed, again, you have what they have.

You're going to feel belittled and contempt and annoyance at the boss for not recognizing your good job versus a bad job.

[Wilikon]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

i can accept this argument if they would get a higher salary somewhere else and if it is a comparison between lazy and hardworking.
but if this is not the case i can only assume it is just simply emotional reasons.

i mean for example the less skilled worker on machine x, which is easier to handle, would still need to give 100% to do his work, exactly like the skilled work on machine y, which is more difficult to handle.
in this example the working for both of them would be the same.

i hope i could make my thinkings somewhat clear.

There will be no need to go to college and pay off loans if you can dip french fries in hot oil for $15/hr (until the robot takes over your job, but that's in another thread of mine). Why the extra stress? OK, nice chair, A.C. all day long. You still have to deal with clients and stuff... You learn all your life hard work brings more reward. You watch your favorite sport team and you get it.

[TheButterZone]

All his victims though... 

[Wilikon]

All his victims though... 

When the CEO is...

[stevegreer]

That's almost as funny as all those poor liberals in Seattle who got their wish for $15/hr and then almost immediately asked for their hours to be cut because they found themselves making too much to qualify for welfare anymore.

[Linuld]

Same amount of money for very different work is not fair. Understandable. Since those higher qualified persons mostly spent years learning what they now know. If they would have earned the same anyway at the end then they would not have to go study.

So really, i think the guy running the company did not create the company. He simply should have known how this will turn out when he would have had the least bit of imagination. So i think he got this business from his dad or so.

[Linuld]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

i can accept this argument if they would get a higher salary somewhere else and if it is a comparison between lazy and hardworking.
but if this is not the case i can only assume it is just simply emotional reasons.

i mean for example the less skilled worker on machine x, which is easier to handle, would still need to give 100% to do his work, exactly like the skilled worker on machine y, which is more difficult to handle.
in this example the working for both of them would be the same.

i hope i could make my thinkings somewhat clear.

Then when you come out of school. You know that you will earn the same like everyone other... why should you go to university and study for years really hard? There is simply no incentive since you would get the same like the person washing the windows.

And when someone is stupid for whatever reason, he only can put together some simple tasks, then why should it be fair that the rocket scientist who creates value for many will get the same? You know, it is simply killing incentive. A state running like that would have no rocket scientists anymore. Or very few. Because regardless of what you do, you will get the same as all. You would not get rewarded for puttin in more effort.

So i can understand that.

[Linuld]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

i can accept this argument if they would get a higher salary somewhere else and if it is a comparison between lazy and hardworking.
but if this is not the case i can only assume it is just simply emotional reasons.

i mean for example the less skilled worker on machine x, which is easier to handle, would still need to give 100% to do his work, exactly like the skilled work on machine y, which is more difficult to handle.
in this example the working for both of them would be the same.

i hope i could make my thinkings somewhat clear.

There will be no need to go to college and pay off loans if you can dip french fries in hot oil for $15/hr (until the robot takes over your job, but that's in another thread of mine). Why the extra stress? OK, nice chair, A.C. all day long. You still have to deal with clients and stuff... You learn all your life hard work brings more reward. You watch your favorite sport team and you get it.

In such a world i would become the nightwatchman. Sitting around and doing nothing. And i would get my notebook with me and browse the forum to learn how to make money with bitcoins.

See... even such stupid laws, if it would be one, could be circumvented easily with the globalized world we have now.

[Wilikon]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

i can accept this argument if they would get a higher salary somewhere else and if it is a comparison between lazy and hardworking.
but if this is not the case i can only assume it is just simply emotional reasons.

i mean for example the less skilled worker on machine x, which is easier to handle, would still need to give 100% to do his work, exactly like the skilled work on machine y, which is more difficult to handle.
in this example the working for both of them would be the same.

i hope i could make my thinkings somewhat clear.

There will be no need to go to college and pay off loans if you can dip french fries in hot oil for $15/hr (until the robot takes over your job, but that's in another thread of mine). Why the extra stress? OK, nice chair, A.C. all day long. You still have to deal with clients and stuff... You learn all your life hard work brings more reward. You watch your favorite sport team and you get it.

In such a world i would become the nightwatchman. Sitting around and doing nothing. And i would get my notebook with me and browse the forum to learn how to make money with bitcoins.

See... even such stupid laws, if it would be one, could be circumvented easily with the globalized world we have now.

In such a world mining bitcoin would not make any sense as everyone would be paid the same... In such world everyone would be as happy, as sad as everyone else. What would be the incentive of browsing the web then or to have a faster internet connection? In such world the Sun would never die one day so there would be no need to escape to somewhere else.

[Lethn]

Watch anybody who supports this find some way to blame those people who left, oh wait, people are already trying to, some people really don't understand how the real world fucking works until it hits them in the face, much like this CEO.

[bryant.coleman]

What an idiot.... income inequality will be there as long as differences in experience and skills exist. Someone who is working in the McDonald's with less than two years of experience can't expect to get the same salary, which is given to someone else who is having 30-years of experience and working as an electrician.

[wxa7115]

What an idiot.... income inequality will be there as long as differences in experience and skills exist. Someone who is working in the McDonald's with less than two years of experience can't expect to get the same salary, which is given to someone else who is having 30-years of experience and working as an electrician.

This and not only that, there is no way to lower the salaries, the employees will not accept that, so the business will bankrupt, all of this was very predictable.

[Snail2]

The fact that Mr. Price himself is cutting corners in his personal life really has nothing to do with this story. It was his own choice to slash his salary and he is the only one responsible for his home budget. So be it. But he describes a number of other woes which were not only predictable, but probably unavoidable. First of all, some of his higher performing workers have quit. Why? Because people who were “just clocking in and out” with the “least skills” (as one former employee put it) got huge raises while the top talent got little or nothing. This is similar to a theme we’ve discussed here before, such as the backlash we can expect from people who have skilled labor jobs paying 15 or 16 dollars an hour when they suddenly see the guy running the fry machine getting the same thing.

Surprise, surprise . Actually this is where all communist experiments are ended until today, regardless of the size and budget of the experiment, and exactly because of the reasons above. Unluckily for him, apart from his own household and his brother there wasn't more "exploitative capitalist" and other "reactionary element" to cover the costs of his revolution.

[Wilikon]

CEOtoCEO participant awarded National SBA Young Entrepreneur of the Year

I recognized that confident smile immediately.  It was CEOtoCEO Breakfast participant Dan Price, Co-founder of Gravity Payments.  Dan was recently recognized as the National SBA Young Entrepreneur of the Year.  Dan’s company works as an intermediary between merchants and credit card companies, has 50 employees and more than 5,000 customers.

I asked Dan to share his experience with the rest of us.  Congratulations and thanks for your thoughts Dan
“It was awesome,” said Price of his meeting with Obama. “It was the coolest thing I’ve ever done.”

I am just very proud to be a part of the Gravity team. Even though it is technically an individual award, it was clearly presented because of the accomplishments we have made supporting small businesses as a team. I was afforded 45 minutes in the Rose Garden with President Obama, two Governors, and members of congress. I found everyone engaging, open to my ideas, and appreciative of our work. The President emphasized that he sees small business leading out of the recession and recognized that 2 out of 3 new jobs created come from entrepreneurs like me.

In the meantime, not a lot changes…we still need to focus on providing merchant processing at half the cost of competitors, keep our focus on transparency and honesty, and continue to provide world class customer service. It was a great award, but full steam ahead…we haven’t quite arrived yet!

Congratulations Dan.  Look forward to seeing you at the CEOtoCEO.

Posted on June 22, 2010


http://www.ceotoceo.com/ceotoceo-participant-awarded-national-sba-young-entrepreneur-of-the-year/

[Gronthaing]

What an idiot.... income inequality will be there as long as differences in experience and skills exist. Someone who is working in the McDonald's with less than two years of experience can't expect to get the same salary, which is given to someone else who is having 30-years of experience and working as an electrician.

The problem with income inequality isn't because what someone working at macdonald's makes less than someone working as an electrician.

Watch anybody who supports this find some way to blame those people who left, oh wait, people are already trying to, some people really don't understand how the real world fucking works until it hits them in the face, much like this CEO.

I don't blame those who left. But I would have gone further than that ceo. I would have turned the company into a cooperative. Doesn't mean everyone would be paid the same of course. But the people working there would have a much greater incentive to work than what they made versus their colleges then. That's the best way to address inequality.

[Furio]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

It only proove that we the people are the only thing holding back a fair and honest structure, because WE arent fair and honest, the system will never be untill we evolve ourselves and therefore the system...

The fact that you can do more than the other guy improves your status and character, but why does the other guy needs to struggle to make ends meet, simply because he has less mental capacity, that is NOT fair or honest, it's oppressive, selfish and dark ages mentality...

[Possum577]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

Or enter the Government to save everyone from the trouble they're having from all this equal pay without equal merit. Just a theory. BUT, it's interesting to see how these business decisions play out. Like the raise in minimum wage in Seattle.

Only time will tell if these moves bring more prosperity or just raise the bar at which we declare poverty.

There's no substitute for having sound skills that someone is willing to pay for...and sometimes always skills need to change match what the market needs.

[Wilikon]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

Or enter the Government to save everyone from the trouble they're having from all this equal pay without equal merit. Just a theory. BUT, it's interesting to see how these business decisions play out. Like the raise in minimum wage in Seattle.

Only time will tell if these moves bring more prosperity or just raise the bar at which we declare poverty.

There's no substitute for having sound skills that someone is willing to pay for...and sometimes always skills need to change match what the market needs.

We have seen multiple examples of socialism collapsing in the past. Even today. Venezuela (another thread of mine)

[Furio]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

Or enter the Government to save everyone from the trouble they're having from all this equal pay without equal merit. Just a theory. BUT, it's interesting to see how these business decisions play out. Like the raise in minimum wage in Seattle.

Only time will tell if these moves bring more prosperity or just raise the bar at which we declare poverty.

There's no substitute for having sound skills that someone is willing to pay for...and sometimes always skills need to change match what the market needs.

We have seen multiple examples of socialism collapsing in the past. Even today. Venezuela (another thread of mine)

You're not actually impying that capatlism is winning right, we're destroying everything of REAL value, like oxygen, ocean, nature, wildlife, everything of REAL value, to aquire stuff of fabricated value, paper with values printed on them, with no actual value, which also causes alot of inequality and also has led to the accumulation of masses of real value in the hands of a few, while evry years MILLIONS die of hunger. Communism wasnt the answer, but capitalism is the biggest disaster for this planet ever....

[peligro]

What an idiot.... income inequality will be there as long as differences in experience and skills exist. Someone who is working in the McDonald's with less than two years of experience can't expect to get the same salary, which is given to someone else who is having 30-years of experience and working as an electrician.

The problem with income inequality isn't because what someone working at macdonald's makes less than someone working as an electrician.

Watch anybody who supports this find some way to blame those people who left, oh wait, people are already trying to, some people really don't understand how the real world fucking works until it hits them in the face, much like this CEO.

I don't blame those who left. But I would have gone further than that ceo. I would have turned the company into a cooperative. Doesn't mean everyone would be paid the same of course. But the people working there would have a much greater incentive to work than what they made versus their colleges then. That's the best way to address inequality.

I'm not sure that the idea of a corporative is so great. Sure, it would make them work, but will you give away hundreds of thousands to normal workers one day when your company is huge?

On top... a corporation means risks to the employees too. They are legally liable for debts the company has. So when the company goes down then the workers go down too. Who wants that?

[Wilikon]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

Or enter the Government to save everyone from the trouble they're having from all this equal pay without equal merit. Just a theory. BUT, it's interesting to see how these business decisions play out. Like the raise in minimum wage in Seattle.

Only time will tell if these moves bring more prosperity or just raise the bar at which we declare poverty.

There's no substitute for having sound skills that someone is willing to pay for...and sometimes always skills need to change match what the market needs.

We have seen multiple examples of socialism collapsing in the past. Even today. Venezuela (another thread of mine)

You're not actually impying that capatlism is winning right, we're destroying everything of REAL value, like oxygen, ocean, nature, wildlife, everything of REAL value, to aquire stuff of fabricated value, paper with values printed on them, with no actual value, which also causes alot of inequality and also has led to the accumulation of masses of real value in the hands of a few, while evry years MILLIONS die of hunger. Communism wasnt the answer, but capitalism is the biggest disaster for this planet ever....

If You Think Communism Is Bad For People, Check Out What It Did To The Environment


When the Berlin Wall came down and the Iron Curtain was finally lifted to expose the inner workings of communism to Western eyes, one of the more shocking discoveries was the nightmarish scale of environmental destruction. The statistics for East Germany alone tell a horrific tale: at the time of its reunification with West Germany an estimated 42 percent of moving water and 24 percent of still waters were so polluted that they could not be used to process drinking water, almost half of the country’s lakes were considered dead or dying and unable to sustain fish or other forms of life, and only one-third of industrial sewage along with half of domestic sewage received treatment.

An estimated 44 percent of East German forests were damaged by acid rain — little surprise given that the country produced proportionally more sulphur dioxide, carbon dioxide, and coal dust than any other in the world. In some areas of East Germany the level of air pollution was between eight and twelve times greater than that found in West Germany, and 40 percent of East Germany’s population lived in conditions that would have justified a smog warning across the border. Only one power station in East Germany had the necessary equipment to clean sulphur from emissions.

Sten Nilsson, a Swedish forest ecologist who was kicked out of East Germany in 1986 for his efforts at collecting data on the health of its forests, said in April 1990 that many forests were “dead, completely” and described the country as “on the verge of total ecological collapse.” The environmental policy of the communist government, according to then Environment Minister Karl-Hermann Steinberg in 1990, “was not only badly designed but didn’t exist.”

Perhaps nowhere suffered more grievous environmental harm than the town of Bitterfeld. Translated as “Bitterfield” in English, its name under the communist regime would prove apt. Pronounced by Der Spiegel as Europe’s dirtiest town, Greenpeace as well as government statistics suggested it may have been the filthiest in the entire world. Home to a variety of manufacturing facilities which spewed a witch’s brew of chemical and industrial byproducts into the air and water, Bitterfeld was nothing less than an environmental horror show. This is how the Washington Post’s Marc Fisher described the town in the spring of 1990:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XIMKQ6gzGA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp_mlKJiwxg

[peligro]

I think a minimum wage is usefull as far as it means protecting the state, that are we, from sponsoring bad business models. I mean the state has to support all the workers that don't have enough to live. Which means we all pay that.

So now when an employer calculates that in he can pay less. But we sponsor his bad business model.

There has to be a limit that high that a worker can live from a fulltime job.

[Gronthaing]

We have seen multiple examples of socialism collapsing in the past. Even today. Venezuela (another thread of mine)

State capitalism and socialism aren't synonyms.

I'm not sure that the idea of a corporative is so great.

Cooperative, not corporative or corporation.

Sure, it would make them work, but will you give away hundreds of thousands to normal workers one day when your company is huge?

As opposed to giving hundreds of thousands and more to one or two people?

On top... a corporation means risks to the employees too. They are legally liable for debts the company has. So when the company goes down then the workers go down too. Who wants that?

Maybe everyone that is already working in a cooperative? And those that left capitalist enterprises to form their own company with their friends, based on them all owning it and setting their own rules. The most well known cooperative is maybe Mondragon. But they exist everywhere. Here's a small list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperatives

[username18333]

Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.

Even Aristotle (384‒322 BCE) would not understand: “the capital or money is money because it is beloved of the one basis point” (qtd. in username18333).

[neoneros]

When you want to have equal pay, you should all have equal efforts, equal rights within the company, that will never happen. People have different motivations. They should have discussed the changes with the workers, they should have listened to the ones complaining and in stead of letting them leave find a sollution to the problems.  Giving everyone equal pay from one day to the next might make you the most popular boss for a week, but is does not take away the problems every company has, people are motivated by different means.

Money is an incentive, but you cannot just say that if flipping burgers pays less then heart surgery no one will ever put in the effort to go and be that surgeon, it would worry me that if I ever needed heart surgery that the only incentive the operating doctor has is money and not my well being or the best outcome for my heart.

Keeping people motivated can be obtained in a lot of ways, if workers slack, you should be able to point it out and take action to it, the got a big raise, but still performed badly, they could have taken a middle road there and in stead of raising their wages, cut back their working hours and maintaing their current salary, they might earn more per hour, but they have to perform less. There could be flaws there too, but when working two hours a day, in stead of eight, you might be a bit more motivated to be more productive within those two hoursof work then you would have within those eight hours. The ones who do want to work more hours and are more productive overall will get more hours paid, so more reward.
You  should not reward salary based on hours, but on productivity and competence.

[bryant.coleman]

Actually this is where all communist experiments are ended until today

The former Soviet Union had a similar pay structure. People who did the hard labor (such as agricultural workers and coal miners) earned more than the doctors and accountants. Even after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the structure persisted. The salary of a physician in Russia and Ukraine is still one of the lowest in the world.

[wxa7115]

Actually this is where all communist experiments are ended until today

The former Soviet Union had a similar pay structure. People who did the hard labor (such as agricultural workers and coal miners) earned more than the doctors and accountants. Even after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the structure persisted. The salary of a physician in Russia and Ukraine is still one of the lowest in the world.

Do you have any source for this? I’m very interested if you do since I didn’t know this.

As far as I know in ancient societies (capitalist societies) resources were expensive and labor was cheap (since you could always buy or enslave more people and there was no machinery) but in modern societies were modern machinery exist, resources were abundant and what was difficult to find was qualified people, so resources are cheap and labor is expensive.

[bryant.coleman]

Do you have any source for this? I’m very interested if you do since I didn’t know this.

Check this:

http://www.profi-forex.us/news/entry4000001012.html

An experienced doctor of emergency care and cardiac surgeon of N. Amosov Institute in Kiev get USD 250-340 per month

As far as I know in ancient societies (capitalist societies) resources were expensive and labor was cheap (since you could always buy or enslave more people and there was no machinery) but in modern societies were modern machinery exist, resources were abundant and what was difficult to find was qualified people, so resources are cheap and labor is expensive.

The USSR was always at a labor shortage. That is why they encouraged the couples to have more and more children. "Non-productive" groups, such as drug addicts, disabled and homosexuals were treated harshly. Until the end of 1970s, the NKVD used to shoot homosexuals on the back of their head.

[Wilikon]

Do you have any source for this? I’m very interested if you do since I didn’t know this.

Check this:

http://www.profi-forex.us/news/entry4000001012.html

An experienced doctor of emergency care and cardiac surgeon of N. Amosov Institute in Kiev get USD 250-340 per month

As far as I know in ancient societies (capitalist societies) resources were expensive and labor was cheap (since you could always buy or enslave more people and there was no machinery) but in modern societies were modern machinery exist, resources were abundant and what was difficult to find was qualified people, so resources are cheap and labor is expensive.

The USSR was always at a labor shortage. That is why they encouraged the couples to have more and more children. "Non-productive" groups, such as drug addicts, disabled and homosexuals were treated harshly. Until the end of 1970s, the Soviets used to shoot homosexuals on the back of their head.

Does that mean the best hospitals in the world are in Georgia?

 

[bryant.coleman]

Does that mean the best hospitals in the world are in Georgia?

Georgia is an emerging medical tourism destination, which attracts patients from all over the world (especially from Turkey, Middle East, and Europe). The medical education system of the former USSR was one of the best in the world. And ethnic Georgians faced no discrimination from the Slavs (unlike the case with Azeris and Uzbeks), and a large number of them graduated out of these institutions. Most of the doctors are very experienced.

[wxa7115]

Do you have any source for this? I’m very interested if you do since I didn’t know this.

Check this:

http://www.profi-forex.us/news/entry4000001012.html

An experienced doctor of emergency care and cardiac surgeon of N. Amosov Institute in Kiev get USD 250-340 per month

As far as I know in ancient societies (capitalist societies) resources were expensive and labor was cheap (since you could always buy or enslave more people and there was no machinery) but in modern societies were modern machinery exist, resources were abundant and what was difficult to find was qualified people, so resources are cheap and labor is expensive.

The USSR was always at a labor shortage. That is why they encouraged the couples to have more and more children. "Non-productive" groups, such as drug addicts, disabled and homosexuals were treated harshly. Until the end of 1970s, the NKVD used to shoot homosexuals on the back of their head.

Wow man, Thanks for the link, you rock.

I have never imagined that there was such a pay structure and such a gap in salaries between countries.

I suppose this is one more reason (as if we needed more) to avoid communism at all costs.

[Linuld]

Does that mean the best hospitals in the world are in Georgia?

Georgia is an emerging medical tourism destination, which attracts patients from all over the world (especially from Turkey, Middle East, and Europe). The medical education system of the former USSR was one of the best in the world. And ethnic Georgians faced no discrimination from the Slavs (unlike the case with Azeris and Uzbeks), and a large number of them graduated out of these institutions. Most of the doctors are very experienced.

Interesting. Are prices for cosmetic surgery very cheap too?

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

[wxa7115]

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Well, in communist countries education tends to be very cheap or free and can be of excellent quality, the problem is that there is no place for this people to work.

[Wilikon]

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Well, in communist countries education tends to be very cheap or free and can be of excellent quality, the problem is that there is no place for this people to work.

Hey! NOT MY QUOTE........ Fix this.

[Linuld]

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Well, in communist countries education tends to be very cheap or free and can be of excellent quality, the problem is that there is no place for this people to work.

Don't steal my quotes!

And yes, i know. Education should be free everywhere ideally. But even if it is. You have to invest a lot of work and time and mostly you don't have much money on the way. Maybe you even have to work while studying.

So it is quite troublesome. I guess only idealistic persons would go through all that only to earn practically nothing at the end.

[Wilikon]

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Well, in communist countries education tends to be very cheap or free and can be of excellent quality, the problem is that there is no place for this people to work.

[b]Don't steal my quotes! [/b]

And yes, i know. Education should be free everywhere ideally. But even if it is. You have to invest a lot of work and time and mostly you don't have much money on the way. Maybe you even have to work while studying.

So it is quite troublesome. I guess only idealistic persons would go through all that only to earn practically nothing at the end.

I don't think that character cares. That's class 101 on forum etiquette...


 

[Snail2]

Well, in communist countries education tends to be very cheap or free and can be of excellent quality, the problem is that there is no place for this people to work.

Actually that wasn't true. There were lots of highly skilled ans R&D jobs... just most people haven't heard too much about that as many of these companies were working on "sensitive" projects, or they simply did basic research instead of the more visible applied research. Actually applied research was the week point. Most scientists looked down on applied research as they seen it inferior to the basic research, something for engineers and sales people instead of something for "true scientists". So communist countries they spent lots of resources and time on researching stuff, without enjoying the results (except if that was something for the military).

[bryant.coleman]

Interesting. Are prices for cosmetic surgery very cheap too?

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Surgeries in the former Soviet-bloc nations only cost around one-tenth of doing the same in the United States. Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus.etc offer quality medical care, at affordable costs. Russia is a little bit expensive, but the quality is good.

There is a good demand for medical seats in Georgian and Belorussian universities, as being a doctor carries a lot of prestige in the society.

And regarding discrimination, whatever the Soviets would like to claim, the former USSR was a deeply xenophobic society. People with Asiatic facial features (such as Azeris and Uzbeks, composing one-sixth of the population) were discriminated in education, military.etc. According to researchers, the only reason why Armenia could beat Azerbaijan during the 1993 Nagorno-Karabakh war was due to the fact that the Azeris (an Asiatic Muslim people) were not allowed in to the combat battalions of the Soviet Army. Even now, the Russian Army has fixed maximum intake quotas for the Muslim groups. Around 10% of the young people in Russia are Muslim. But only around 2% of the soldiers are Muslims.

[wxa7115]

I don't think that character cares. That's class 101 on forum etiquette...

I’m deeply sorry for misquoting you; I screw up when I was editing the post, I corrected my post and again I apologize for my mistake.

[Wilikon]

I don't think that character cares. That's class 101 on forum etiquette...

I’m deeply sorry for misquoting you; I screw up when I was editing the post, I corrected my post and again I apologize for my mistake.

Thank you

[Linuld]

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Well, in communist countries education tends to be very cheap or free and can be of excellent quality, the problem is that there is no place for this people to work.

[b]Don't steal my quotes! [/b]

And yes, i know. Education should be free everywhere ideally. But even if it is. You have to invest a lot of work and time and mostly you don't have much money on the way. Maybe you even have to work while studying.

So it is quite troublesome. I guess only idealistic persons would go through all that only to earn practically nothing at the end.

I don't think that character cares. That's class 101 on forum etiquette...


 

I'm not sure what you wanted to say but i referred to my quote coming out like it was you who wrote it.

It was a joke, just in case you didn't notice.

Edit: Ah ok, you referred to the one who made the error.

[Linuld]

Interesting. Are prices for cosmetic surgery very cheap too?

What i wonder is why should someone go through the trouble to get a doctor only to earn nothing at the end. Do you mean it only comes from a minority that was NOT discriminated there?

Surgeries in the former Soviet-bloc nations only cost around one-tenth of doing the same in the United States. Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus.etc offer quality medical care, at affordable costs. Russia is a little bit expensive, but the quality is good.

There is a good demand for medical seats in Georgian and Belorussian universities, as being a doctor carries a lot of prestige in the society.

And regarding discrimination, whatever the Soviets would like to claim, the former USSR was a deeply xenophobic society. People with Asiatic facial features (such as Azeris and Uzbeks, composing one-sixth of the population) were discriminated in education, military.etc. According to researchers, the only reason why Armenia could beat Azerbaijan during the 1993 Nagorno-Karabakh war was due to the fact that the Azeris (an Asiatic Muslim people) were not allowed in to the combat battalions of the Soviet Army. Even now, the Russian Army has fixed maximum intake quotas for the Muslim groups. Around 10% of the young people in Russia are Muslim. But only around 2% of the soldiers are Muslims.

Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus... i will keep that names in my mind. Though i think ukraine is not the safest place nowadays. Might be there are safe places but generally i would fear that safe places turn to unsafe places suddenly when iam there.

[CPNpr]

Never heard about his company, just another internet bubble.
At least he gets what he want, publicity.

[Swordsoffreedom]

Interesting to watch this evolve,figured there would be issues but did not expect so many from within. Sure did not take long to start eating itself.

I was shocked to see how fast that experiment collapsed. Indeed.

I appreciate that someone kept a pulse on the topic and came back with an update all to often these stories get left abandoned and no one comes back to see what happened in the meanwhile.

As for the reason for this failure its a worker ant analogy simply put a percentage of people are lazy while the rest do the work the classic saying where its 90% of the work is done by 10% of the people, with income equality the incentive to perform from the worker ants who did the best disappeared and without that motivation they left of course the lazy ants didn't care or want to step up as much to fill the gap because of no salary motivations hence this problem.

Alas society is still based on a profit motive in one way or another justified or not.

[khalized]

Its hard to know the exact truth maybe the business is having hard time due to other reasons.  Doesn't really prove much there are examples of people living in communes where everyone is equal and it works.

[bryant.coleman]

Doesn't really prove much there are examples of people living in communes where everyone is equal and it works.

In certain cases, it works. An example is the Kibbutz system of Israel. Everyone are equal in these agricultural villages, and the salaries are the same. But the Kibbutz system is a success, because there is no need for non-agricultural skills there. The same system wont work in the Information Technology or the manufacturing sectors.

[Bit_Happy]

why did the high skilled workers leave? they didnt got less salary right?
i mean the people that left will get the same salary somewhere else right?

greed and jealousy.

we need the singularity asap.
(of course only if it isnt going to kill us)

All incentive goes out the door when the minimum is 70k. The lazy workers will get paid the same as the hard-working ones. There is no room to expand and move forward.

Incentives to produce are hugely important. In sports (for example) when young stars get their first huge contract, they frequently find there "skills" on the field are not nearly as sharp,