Transactions speed prevent us from going to Mainstream ?

[acquafredda]

Kazimir,
you say there's no problem...ok... you're right about the 2 second transaction time but what about confirmation waiting?

That is the problem! Do we agree on that?

I always use this example:
if my coffee is 80 euro cents and I want to pay it in BTC for something around 300000 satoshi I do not want to pay a regular fee of 50000 to have that confirmed so expensively.

Maybe the problem is that here in Italy one asks for a coffe in 30 seconds it's ready, one pays and leaves. This happens usually in less than 3 minutes.

Do you understand the point I'm talking about?

[ranochigo]

Kazimir,
you say there's no problem...ok... you're right about the 2 second transaction time but what about confirmation waiting?

That is the problem! Do we agree on that?

I always use this example:
if my coffee is 80 euro cents and I want to pay it in BTC for something around 300000 satoshi I do not want to pay a regular fee of 50000 to have that confirmed so expensively.

Maybe the problem is that here in Italy one asks for a coffe in 30 seconds it's ready, one pays and leaves. This happens usually in less than 3 minutes.

Do you understand the point I'm talking about?

Using a third party software could eliminate this issue. One possible problem of that implementation is that you won't be able to control your Bitcoins hence trusting a third party. Just to note, there is no regular fee in Bitcoin, the standard relay fee is 1000 satoshi, the average fee for fast confirmations would be 10000satoshis. The fees can be adjusted proportionally if the price increases.

Even though a few second would be enough to reduce the risk of doublespending attacks, it is good to wait for one confirmation for things larger than $100. It is still possible for doublespend to happen.

I also think that transaction speed is an issue at the moment. For everyday spending if one goes to a place and spends very little no one would like to spend much in transactions fees: this lets you wait (how long??) until the transaction is confirmed.

Right now the title of this thread is correct: Transactions speed are preventing us our legitimate growth.

The question is: is there a solution or not?

In fact, there is no problem. Bitcoin's transaction speed is about 1-2 seconds. How much faster would that need to be? Bitcoin is already faster than any other payment method on the planet.

VISA handles more than 2,000 transactions per second. True that transactions would take only a few second to proporgate, the confirmations is also important for some transactions. It is hard to maintain even 100TPS continuously as the mempool would only get bigger and the current block size can't possibly handle such amount of transaction.

[ShamrockHannah]

I agree with you totally. I was having this discussion with my boyfriend yesterday. I was buying something online using BTC and it took an hour for the first confirmation, it needed three confirmations in total to show up in the wallet of the site I was purchasing from so ended up taking about an hour and a half to complete the order.

This was OK because we were sitting indoors watching TV. If you were in a ship paying in BTC this would not be acceptable though. Yeah a lot of people do shop online nowadays but sometimes you have to go out to get certain items. If the public are going to adopt bitcoin they do not want to waste their precious time waiting for a transaction.

I heard someone taking about increasing block size they then went on to say that the block frequency needs to be increased. I do not know though. Just putting that though out there.

[Kazimir]

VISA handles more than 2,000 transactions per second.

That's something different entirely. It's like comparing latency with bandwidth. Postal services can transfer 60 million letters per day, does that make it "faster than email"?

VISA has a lot of bandwidth in terms of maximum transaction volume they can process, yes. But the time it takes for one transaction is slower than Bitcoin. It involves multiple connections to bank servers, payment acquirers, card issuers, all with authentication protocols etc. It typically takes 5-10 seconds, whereas Bitcoin takes only 1-2 sec.

True that transactions would take only a few second to proporgate, the confirmations is also important for some transactions.

Yes, but that's actually very rare. In the vast majority of situations, it's absolutely unnecessary to await even a single confirmation.

It is hard to maintain even 100TPS continuously as the mempool would only get bigger and the current block size can't possibly handle such amount of transaction.

True, but the debate on how to solve this is still ongoing. There are plenty of possibilities, and one of these solutions will become standard sooner or later.

But again, this topic isn't about transactions per second at all. It's about the time it takes to make a payment.

[BillyBobZorton]

Put things into perspective: If you look at it this way you'll see that Visa may right now have more transactions per second, but their growth potential is limited. Now if you consider the potential growth of Bitcoin you'll see how it supersedes Visa and Mastercard combined.

[Mickeyb]

Could this be the reason , It's like 15-20mn to get at least 1 confirmation if I'am correct ?
Anyway the point is that we need some time to get transactions verified , could this actually prevent us from going to mainstream ?  I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

When you are buying parking tickets are you also supposed to wait few minuts ?   It wouldn't make any sense .

Honestly , I'am not even sure what controls the speed of the transactions .

No, this is not preventing us from going mainstream. 10 minutes for getting 1 confirmation or 60 minutes for getting 6 confirmations and being absolutely sure that that you will get your money is not a long time to wait at all.

Services that we are using today are much slower (banks, credit card companies, etc..).

Our problem is trust and user adoption and these 2 absolutely depend on each other. Once we get more trust from the average Joe, our user adoption will skyrocket as well.

[manselr]

Could this be the reason , It's like 15-20mn to get at least 1 confirmation if I'am correct ?
Anyway the point is that we need some time to get transactions verified , could this actually prevent us from going to mainstream ?  I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

When you are buying parking tickets are you also supposed to wait few minuts ?   It wouldn't make any sense .

Honestly , I'am not even sure what controls the speed of the transactions .

No, this is not preventing us from going mainstream. 10 minutes for getting 1 confirmation or 60 minutes for getting 6 confirmations and being absolutely sure that that you will get your money is not a long time to wait at all.

Services that we are using today are much slower (banks, credit card companies, etc..).

Our problem is trust and user adoption and these 2 absolutely depend on each other. Once we get more trust from the average Joe, our user adoption will skyrocket as well.

You are forgetting the fact we can't have proper user adoption as long as the blocksize problem stays unsolved. If we want mainstream tier volume in Bitcoin will need to solve this first, otherwise the network will collapse due too many people using it at once. So before mainstream step is reached, we need to get the block size increased and we need to start thinking about using LN type of solutions as well.

[Mickeyb]

Could this be the reason , It's like 15-20mn to get at least 1 confirmation if I'am correct ?
Anyway the point is that we need some time to get transactions verified , could this actually prevent us from going to mainstream ?  I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

When you are buying parking tickets are you also supposed to wait few minuts ?   It wouldn't make any sense .

Honestly , I'am not even sure what controls the speed of the transactions .

No, this is not preventing us from going mainstream. 10 minutes for getting 1 confirmation or 60 minutes for getting 6 confirmations and being absolutely sure that that you will get your money is not a long time to wait at all.

Services that we are using today are much slower (banks, credit card companies, etc..).

Our problem is trust and user adoption and these 2 absolutely depend on each other. Once we get more trust from the average Joe, our user adoption will skyrocket as well.

You are forgetting the fact we can't have proper user adoption as long as the blocksize problem stays unsolved. If we want mainstream tier volume in Bitcoin will need to solve this first, otherwise the network will collapse due too many people using it at once. So before mainstream step is reached, we need to get the block size increased and we need to start thinking about using LN type of solutions as well.

Yes of course, I didn't forget that, I have acted more as if that was already done, even though it's not. Divided we will not succeed, that's for sure. I mean we have many windmills to fight with in order to succeed, if we would fight between us as well, it would be just too damn hard. I hope that the block size debate will be over soon!

[Linuld]

Could this be the reason , It's like 15-20mn to get at least 1 confirmation if I'am correct ?
Anyway the point is that we need some time to get transactions verified , could this actually prevent us from going to mainstream ?  I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

When you are buying parking tickets are you also supposed to wait few minuts ?   It wouldn't make any sense .

Honestly , I'am not even sure what controls the speed of the transactions .

It's not a problem i think. Adoption would happen that way that discounter and other businesses would accept no confirmation transactions. They would give out the goods when they see the transaction. Only when the value of the goods reaches a certain level, then they would wait for a confirmation.

I think that can be done because even with zero confirmation the chance to scam is pretty thing.

[Linuld]

I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

No, you're not. You're comparing apples and pears.

Maybe this clarifies things:

Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: 3-5 sec

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: several business days

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes
Credit card: 6+ months

So, what was the problem with Bitcoin, again?

*lol* I like your quote. I quote it for future reference in case i get this question again somewhere.

If you see it that way... yes, credit card payments are a risk.

[Linuld]

I wanted to add that your 10 minutes are only an average. You could get a confirmation in 1 minute but it can take 45 minutes not seldom, or even a couple hours, very seldom.

You can't await someone waiting for that long. In that case, let's say a car was bought, the merchant would simply get a contract and the payment is done. He then waits for the payment to confirm. If it doesn't for some reason then he knows the person and can charge him afterwards.

[Daniel91]

I wanted to add that your 10 minutes are only an average. You could get a confirmation in 1 minute but it can take 45 minutes not seldom, or even a couple hours, very seldom.

You can't await someone waiting for that long. In that case, let's say a car was bought, the merchant would simply get a contract and the payment is done. He then waits for the payment to confirm. If it doesn't for some reason then he knows the person and can charge him afterwards.

This is very good example.
In fact, I had to wait a confirmation in my last bitcoin transaction for 5 or 6 hours!
I know that this is very rare case but it happens sometimes.
So, if you are planing to do some serious shopping, as buying a car or a gold ring, and you have to wait 5 or 6 hours to confirm the transaction, you'll probably give up on buying bitcoin and pay by credit card.
So, until we resolve this, bitcoin will never become mainstream.

[Hazir]

Using a third party software could eliminate this issue. One possible problem of that implementation is that you won't be able to control your Bitcoins hence trusting a third party. Just to note, there is no regular fee in Bitcoin, the standard relay fee is 1000 satoshi, the average fee for fast confirmations would be 10000satoshis. The fees can be adjusted proportionally if the price increases.

Even though a few second would be enough to reduce the risk of doublespending attacks, it is good to wait for one confirmation for things larger than $100. It is still possible for doublespend to happen.

Every service which takes control over your money in order for you you use it is unacceptable. Your money can be hacked, stolen, frozen.
Confirmation times of bitcoin can be lowered, the only reason they are not is because it is something like security parameter of btc.
We can go lower to the litecoin level.

[OmegaStarScream]

For those who suggested third party softwares or website , that's basically saying Go and use Credit card or Paypal or other shitty payment methods , and it's basically against the purpose of Bitcoin . "Decentralized"
I prefer waiting long time then have other people controlling my money

[countryfree]

You are mixing up transaction speed with confirmation speed.

He's entirely right to do so since an unconfirmed transaction is worthless.
If someone pays me with BTC, I usually wait about 90 minutes before considering I've been paid, but I still see this as pretty good, because usually I'm being paid with bank transfers which require at least one working day for clearance.

[Kazimir]

You are mixing up transaction speed with confirmation speed.

He's entirely right to do so since an unconfirmed transaction is worthless.

In that case, paypal and credit card payment are also completely worthless, as they remain unconfirmed (i.e. you're not sure whether the payment will be reversed or not) for more than 6 months.

Besides, even an unconfirmed Bitcoin transaction is extremely unlikely to not end up confirmed eventually. Seriously, try and make a transaction that never gets confirmed. You'll find it's hardly possible in normal circumstances.

If someone pays me with BTC, I usually wait about 90 minutes before considering I've been paid,

You could consider yourself to be paid immediately, or if you're really paranoid, await one confirmation (10 mins on average). It's really enough.

Seriously, how many payments did you receive that didn't eventually get confirmed? I guess 100% of all those payments that you waited 90 minutes for, could have been considered 'paid' instantly.

Nonetheless: sure, if you're not dealing with a real time situation (e.g. having a customer impatiently wait at your front desk or something) it's perfectly acceptable to wait for a confirmation. But still, even instant payments are very trustworthy.

[roadbits]

I think the long term solution will be side chains. Day to day transactions like buying coffee and purchasing things online will take place on a merge mined side chain with faster confirmation times.
Long term storage will be on the main chain, and for those kinds of transactions 10 minutes is very fast.

[acquafredda]

In my humble opinion this is the very discussion that prevents us to go mainstream.

The average Joe doesn't give a shit about transaction speed/confirmation speed: he wants to go into a coffee shop grab a coffee on the go, pay contactless or swiping a card and then go away.

Yes, I think this is the thing here.

[countryfree]

In my humble opinion this is the very discussion that prevents us to go mainstream.

The average Joe doesn't give a shit about transaction speed/confirmation speed: he wants to go into a coffee shop grab a coffee on the go, pay contactless or swiping a card and then go away.

Yes, I think this is the thing here.

Thanks, but I'd rather use cash in that case. I'm using a credit card about once a month, because I don't want to leave traces. Cash remains the best anonymous option. I advise against using BTC or credit cards on the streets, or do you want someone to be able to follow all your financial moves?

I prefer to use BTC for business. There, a 90 minutes delay is very fast for world wide payments, when bank transfers are much longer. Since I have no need to be paid immediately, I say it's great.

[acquafredda]

The big thing right now is about pattern recognition put in place by banks and govs to control whatever we do with our money.
I say this not as a fud but because it happened to me: I was asked to give some clarifications about what I did with my money.
Hence I realized that is NOT my money. I mean, yes it is, but at a certain extent.

This scares me. Since there's very little I can do about it. I have no control over it.

I started using bitcoin because of this: I want control over my wealth. I do not trust govs and banks.
My money my rules not theirs.