.

[Luno]

myrkul sorry: You are indeed not ironic, you sincerely believe people are a commodity and that their inner self is hired also! The one point you make, that is true is that doing good to others for the purpose of self gratification is somewhat selfish, but that is quite a stretch as you actually do something beneficial to others regardless of your personal motivation.

BTW this is the first time any one has replied with "FUCK YOU" to me ever in a forum.

[Rassah]

Um, wtf???

I prefer the much simpler explanation of our brains being a network of electrical impulses, designed to help us survive and reproduce, but having more information stored than we can possibly process and make sense of, rather than this extra-body existence and reincarnation.
Where did all the "consciousness" of the old 386 and 485 PCs go to? Reincarnated as android phones and cheap GPS systems?

[scribe]

What's wrong with just saying "consciousness" is a fractal along one axis, "reincarnation" is a fractal along another, and having done with it? Bosh. Job complete...

Feel free to explain.

Well. I just quite like fractals really. But there's a certain poetry in nature replicating itself. The golden ratio repeats itself at all manner of levels. Consciousness is a "mirror" of reality, to possibly borrow from Shinto. Ergo, could consciousness be a fractal mirroring of the body which is, in turn a fractal mirroring of the environmental systems, which is in turn... etc. etc. etc.

Hence one axis = layers of reality which shift in tune with each other. As the global ecosystem alters, the human consciousnesseseses tied to it alter.

And if time is a dimension, wherein patterns repeat themselves with subtle variation (fractals are not *identical* at all levels, just reminiscent) - e.g. evolution and mutation, innovation cycles, plus ca change, etc., why couldn't reincarnation on a physical/mental/cultural/historical axis not also be a constant looping of fractal reflections? The golden ratio dispersed along event horizons.

But I'm still working on it. There may be holes in my argument.

[jasinlee]

Dude, you gotta remember, "You never go full retard." That will help you when posting Atlas.

[SysRun]

This user is currently ignored.

[myrkul]

myrkul sorry: You are indeed not ironic, you sincerely believe people are a commodity and that their inner self is hired also! The one point you make, that is true is that doing good to others for the purpose of self gratification is somewhat selfish, but that is quite a stretch as you actually do something beneficial to others regardless of your personal motivation.

No, I do not believe people are a commodity. I do not believe their "inner self" is hired as well. I do believe you should not endanger someone's job by dragging out the call just to make yourself feel better.

You yourself stated that your motivation for doing this is to prove to yourself that you don't see them as faceless cogs in a machine made to serve you. That is a selfish motive, which in itself I do not disapprove of. Nothing wrong with acting to please yourself. What is wrong is to act to please yourself to the detriment of others. Which is exactly what you are doing when you drag out the call and tell them a joke when they are being paid to provide a service to people. People who do things other than their jobs while on their jobs don't typically get to keep that job.

If you truly wanted to make them feel valued, and cared about their welfare, you would take the advice of one of the people you are discussing about how to do that. No. All you care about is how you feel about how you consider them. It doesn't matter that you could be damaging the person's livelihood. You don't consider them part of a machine, and you've just wasted their time proving that to yourself. And let me tell you, again from the perspective of a person who has worked in a call center: That's exactly how we see it when the call drags on after we should have said "Thank you for calling <X>" and hung up. You're wasting our time, and ruining our numbers. Polish your self-esteem on your own damn time.

[interlagos]

Um, wtf???

I prefer the much simpler explanation of our brains being a network of electrical impulses, designed to help us survive and reproduce, but having more information stored than we can possibly process and make sense of, rather than this extra-body existence and reincarnation.
...

Haha, in your simple explanation, if consciousness is just a product of electrical impulses in your brain,
then answer me this simple question - what makes a particular consciousness *your* consciousness?

When you say "[brain] ...having more information stored than we can possibly process", who is this mysterious *we* that processes it?

How *you* ended up in this biological shell with brain and stuff?
See, if you never existed before, then what triggered your appearance in this strange form at this time on this planet?

[Rassah]

Um, wtf???

I prefer the much simpler explanation of our brains being a network of electrical impulses, designed to help us survive and reproduce, but having more information stored than we can possibly process and make sense of, rather than this extra-body existence and reincarnation.
...

Haha, in your simple explanation, if consciousness is just a product of electrical impulses in your brain,
then answer me this simple question - what makes a particular consciousness *your* consciousness?

When you say "[brain] ...having more information stored than we can possibly process", who is this mysterious *we* that processes it?

How *you* ended up in this biological shell with brain and stuff?
See, if you never existed before, then what triggered your appearance in this strange form at this time on this planet?

There was no "appearance." It was a very slow development from nothing, through a very mentally undeveloped state as a toddler, to more and more developed state through childhood and adulthood,  as my brain recorded various experiences and formed neural pathways that help me relate new information to my present day experiences. My particular life experiences, which were a direct PHYSICAL influences on the network structure of my brain's neural network, is what make my particular consciousness *my* particular consciousness. And "we" as in human species. We are no different from very complex network-based computers. And once our technology allows computers to think the way we do, and store our consciousness on machines, you guys will be going around causing all sorts of violence against intelligent machines and people who upload themselves to such machines, because you will think they don't have "souls" or "consciousness" any more, and thus won't consider destroying them as murder.

[Atlas]

Rassah, I do believe a machine can be a sentient being only because I believe consciousness can be quantified and replicated. This is why I am sympathetic to the theories I am suggesting.

[phelix]

too good to be true.

Also for me you jumped the shark this time   

[Luno]

Myrkul, got your point, but I don't agree with you and I am somewhat puzzled that you can have such a view on the personal part of human interaction. The business call example is just an example - I'm talking about being there in conversations:

When I was 20 I worked in a boiler room - a call centre, I didn't care at all if the Ad's I was selling was of any use to the customers. As I got better at it, I experienced that my mind often wandered, and in a pure mechanical way, while thinking about groceries and what to do after work, I was able to make the sale as if I was a robot. It was a pure stimuli / response interaction. The customers says that, then I say this, when conversation goes in circles, go for the kill.

Now I demand of myself always be present when I talk to people, and when people are acting as robots to me, I always try to trick them out of it and they always appreciate being discovered as human beings.

[myrkul]

Myrkul, got your point, but I don't agree with you and I am somewhat puzzled that you can have such a view on the personal part of human interaction. The business call example is just an example - I'm talking about being there in conversations:

Yes, that's all well and good, But I think the difference here is that I do not, and never have, "zone out" when in a conversation. I am always engaged in the conversation, whether that is a tech support call or a transaction with a check-out clerk at wal-mart. I am always "there." I've worked in both outbound sales and inbound support environments, and I always did better in the support role for just that reason.

All I am saying is that a sincere 'Thank you, John, you've done a great job helping me today," is just as effective at breaking a call-center rep or a secretary or whomever out of their work-trance. And it does so in such a way that will not get them reprimanded for letting a call go too long.

In other situations, perhaps extending the conversation is not so detrimental, but it can still get you or them in (at least minor social) trouble. Take the supermarket check-out clerk, for example. Sit there and talk with them for a few minutes, and you'll sart getting dirty looks from the people behind you in line. Take a little longer, and maybe the manager comes over to see what the hold-up is. Keep pressing it, and soon you're no longer allowed in that store again, and the clerk thinks you're a creep.

But a simple smile and thank you could have avoided all this. Make eye contact, smile, and thank them, wishing them a good day, and they feel valued, you have reassured yourself that you're not an asshole, and best of all, you haven't wasted anyone's time.

You don't have to go out of your way to convince yourself you don't treat people like machines. Just treat them like people, and the rest will follow naturally.

[Liquid]

Thank me later 

http://www.youtube.com/user/twcjr44/videos?view=0

[herzmeister]

A dream within a dream within a dream...

or, for tech-oriented left-brain people:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

Then the question is if your consciousness data will be reused and expanded in some way or not by the outside computer system or its operator. This operator may very well be your (higher) self, and you are the avatar.

[Luno]

myrkul, exactly thats what I'm talking about, to step out of being a role. The conclusion to that, from my own point of view, is the ability to be the same person in a multitude of situations, hence the notion earlier in this thread of being as much yourself as you are at home with family.

I'm in Denmark / Scandinavia and there is not a lot of presence in a simple "thank you for doing business with you". In the UK, on the other hand, there is a lot more meaning and eye contact in the standard  greetings, so I suspect that we also are discussing this from a different cultural pretense. When I think of Germans there is even more formality and less personality in professional relations.

To take this detour back to the OP, my original point was that this "spirituality  world view" kind of secluded you from other people, only being concerned about your own ascension. I was then elaborating further that any interaction with other people defines how you view yourself and functions as a human being thus seeking  deeper meaning in in every relation makes a lot of sense to me.

[thebaron]

It's fun to speculate that there's more to life than being meat that's the product of random genetic mutations.

[myrkul]

I suspect that we also are discussing this from a different cultural pretense.

I suspect you're right, the cultural differences probably are the main cause of our dispute. But I can tell you that in the US, eye contact and a smile make a huge difference in how you're perceived.

[tarrant_01]

It's fun to speculate that there's more to life than being meat that's the product of random genetic mutations.

It's far more "fun" to experience it.

[interlagos]

Um, wtf???

I prefer the much simpler explanation of our brains being a network of electrical impulses, designed to help us survive and reproduce, but having more information stored than we can possibly process and make sense of, rather than this extra-body existence and reincarnation.
...

Haha, in your simple explanation, if consciousness is just a product of electrical impulses in your brain,
then answer me this simple question - what makes a particular consciousness *your* consciousness?
...

There was no "appearance." It was a very slow development from nothing, through a very mentally undeveloped state as a toddler, to more and more developed state through childhood and adulthood,  as my brain recorded various experiences and formed neural pathways that help me relate new information to my present day experiences. My particular life experiences, which were a direct PHYSICAL influences on the network structure of my brain's neural network, is what make my particular consciousness *my* particular consciousness. And "we" as in human species. We are no different from very complex network-based computers. And once our technology allows computers to think the way we do, and store our consciousness on machines, you guys will be going around causing all sorts of violence against intelligent machines and people who upload themselves to such machines, because you will think they don't have "souls" or "consciousness" any more, and thus won't consider destroying them as murder.

No, I'm not talking about the experience that you go through in your life as you develop.
I'm talking about binary singularity, that is real *you*. I'll explain...

All the biological forms on this planet have this binary property - it's either *you* or *not-you*.
Do you agree? Among all the life forms you call only one particular body *you* and all other bodies are *not-you*. Now, that's a drastic difference!

It would be very illogical to suggest that this drastic difference, this binary singularity, comes from seemingly uniform and slow biological development process, which allows bodies to develop from the same chemical elements with some minor differences here and there. See where I'm going...?

EDIT:
So, in other words, what is it in the chemical makeup that makes only one body (out of the billions similar ones) your body?

[tarrant_01]

In the spiritual path, you will find that the experience is the reason you are here. It's why you reincarnate. My body is not necessarily "mine". I don't own it. I guess you could consider it a loaner to get a specific experience in this particular lifetime.

The other goal of spirituality is to dissolve that dividing line that we use to say what is "me" and what is "not-me" or having a non-dual perception while being in duality.

Everything has a purpose.