If you want to know why I hate the dev team and how they treat Bitcoin...

[Bitcoin Oz]

I do believe that paper wallets are a viable solution that is totally underrepresented in the materials one's likely to find in a cursory web search for bitcoin.

The generator at BitAddress.org should be available on Bitcoin.org.

The community of people able to use Bitcoin would be much bigger if they could easily print their own wallet, buy bitcoins somewhere to fund it, and type their private key directly into the merchant of their choice, no differently than if they were buying and redeeming an iTunes gift card.  That "type it into a merchant" step would come much more easily if bitcoind offered support for "sweeping" private keys, which is why I proposed it over a year ago.  A merchant would simply put a web front-end on the function, sweep funds to an address he controls, and then treat swept payments the same as an incoming payment from elsewhere on the internet.

I run into people all the time who just wanted to own some coins, downloaded the client, and gave up because they bit off more than they could chew and because to them, a day long block chain download sounded nothing like "the future of money".  If they could have printed themselves a wallet in 30 seconds, then handing someone 100 bucks for some play coins would have been far more pleasant.

This seems to make things more complicated, not less. Maybe I haven't got a clue.

Thats way less complicated. If you can buy bitcoin paper wallets next to itunes receipts at the supermarket it would be awesome.

[MatthewLM]

You can't spend arbitrary amounts, you can only spend the entire amount of bitcoins held with a key or not. So it would be like printing your own cash backed by bitcoins. It's more complicated because it requires a printer and you'd need to remember and organise how much money is stored on the keys (How do you handle change?).

Why is it hard to scan a QR code or use NFC and then confirm a payment on your mobile? Bitcoin can be used in that fashion and it's easy no? Faffing around with printed keys is not as easy in my opinion. Sure, you might say something like "But the bitcoin payments require confirmations and the private keys can be verified instantly". Well I'm working on a way to remove all fears of 0-confirmation payments whether or not these fears are justified anyway.

As for the blockchain download. This doesn't need to be a problem either.

[Atlas]

As for the blockchain download. This doesn't need to be a problem either.

It is. Most people drop Bitcoin because of it; Bitcoin-Qt is shoved down their throats.

Nobody wants to wait hours to get started.

[MatthewLM]

It doesn't have to be a problem because people do not need to download it.

[Atlas]

As for the blockchain download. This doesn't need to be a problem either.

It is. Most people drop Bitcoin because of it; Bitcoin-Qt is shoved down their throats.

Nobody wants to wait hours to get started.

That's OK. Until we get more newbie friendly software and services, the newbies should probably stay away.

They exist. The future is in trustworthy online wallets. When Bitcoin is successful it won't be through http://bitcoin.org.

[greyhawk]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

You have just described 99% of all computer users.

And no, there really should be no reason why they should have to think about these things. Most people don't know how their car works and neither should they have to know. Put gas in -> drive. Put Bitcoins in -> pay.

[Richy_T]

It's more complicated because it requires a printer and you'd need to remember and organise how much money is stored on the keys (How do you handle change?).

I guess the wallet could also contain a "change" address and the target should refund. That's still over-complicated though.

[Richy_T]

Even if you *must* have the client do the block-chain thing (and I understand the justification even if I don't necessarily agree with it), there's no reason you couldn't have the client run in a lightweight mode until the block-chain is caught up. Maybe with some suitable warning.

I've been using bitcoin-spinner to manage my so-far meagre funds but I fired up my PC wallet last night just for giggles and it took 15 minutes plus to catch up with the block-chain. That's not good user experience.

I understand block-chain processing === needed but it needs to be decoupled from the wallet. Heck, I should be able to run blockchain processing on my Linux server and keep my wallet on my nice friendly Windows GUI workstation, no? (Maybe I can already do this. I see that there are various options to the client that can be run on the command line.)

[mobodick]

As for the blockchain download. This doesn't need to be a problem either.

It is. Most people drop Bitcoin because of it; Bitcoin-Qt is shoved down their throats.

Nobody wants to wait hours to get started.

That's OK. Until we get more newbie friendly software and services, the newbies should probably stay away.

They exist. The future is in trustworthy online wallets. When Bitcoin is successful it won't be through http://bitcoin.org.

It must really be hurting that you can't do any of this yourself, huh?
Whiner..

[casascius]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

[mobodick]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

I hope you realize that driving the first cars required you to be a mechanic and an enthousiast above anything else.
It's just the natural progression of technology.
10 years ago only nerds were fscking around with linux, now most smartphones run on it.
Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.
Serially guys..
 

[Atlas]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

[mobodick]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

[Atlas]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

[MoonShadow]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

I didn't use the term "worthy", you did. As Bitcoin exists today, it's simply prudent to acquire the knowledge necessary to secure your coins, preferably before actually acquiring coins.

Amen Brother.  Everyone knows how to manage cash and keep it relatively safe.  Kids as young as 8 have billfold wallets to keep their cards and cash.  Nearly everyone knows the basic premise behind a safe (piggly bank).  Users are simply going to have to learn how this system is different or risk keeping their funds with others.  It is not the job of developers to educate users nor alter the main client to accomodate them.

[mobodick]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

Sure, you can demand all you want.
But in this case it makes you look like a little kid in a toy store that demands that the shop owners give him a toy.
I see a lot of that with people that do not contribute themselfs to code of an open source project.

[Atlas]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

Sure, you can demand all you want.
But in this case it makes you look like a little kid in a toy store that demands that the shop owners give you a toy.
I see a lot of that with people that do not contribute themselfs to code of an open source project.

I've never cared for a spotless appearance. I have also never cared for the organization nor the actions of the Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoind project. I rather see it lose its recognition among the public. This end of mine -- it doesn't require code contributions of any kind.

Your obsession with honor and dignity has no bearing on my person. I never play that game. I transcend it.

[ElectricMucus]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

[mobodick]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

Sure, you can demand all you want.
But in this case it makes you look like a little kid in a toy store that demands that the shop owners give you a toy.
I see a lot of that with people that do not contribute themselfs to code of an open source project.

I've never cared for a spotless appearance. I have also never cared for the organization nor the actions of the Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoind project. I rather see it lose its recognition among the public. This end of mine -- it doesn't require code contributions of any kind.

Your obsession with honor and dignity has no bearing on my person. I never play that game. I transcend it.

Serially tho, stating that you're better never won a grown up argument.
You're about as much transcended as a kid hooked on sugar.
GIMME GIMME GIMME I NEEEEEED!.

[Atlas]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

Sure, you can demand all you want.
But in this case it makes you look like a little kid in a toy store that demands that the shop owners give you a toy.
I see a lot of that with people that do not contribute themselfs to code of an open source project.

I've never cared for a spotless appearance. I have also never cared for the organization nor the actions of the Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoind project. I rather see it lose its recognition among the public. This end of mine -- it doesn't require code contributions of any kind.

Your obsession with honor and dignity has no bearing on my person. I never play that game. I transcend it.

Serially tho, stating that you're better never won a grown up argument.
You're about as much transcended as a kid hooked on sugar.
GIMME GIMME GIMME I NEEEEEED!.

My happiness isn't dependent on any of this.