Re: GLBSE Situation Summary (officially closed)

[Namworld]

GLBSE IS APPARENTLY CLOSING https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.0

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Nefario taking users deposits... well apparently it's not confirmed and pure speculation
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GLBSE user funds are more or less safe, but I have bad news from the GLBSE shareholder meeting.

Nefario has, without a shareholder motion and in violation of the bylaws and GLBSE ToS, decided to close down GLBSE. Users will be able to collect deposits only after submitting identity info. A similar system to the one that Goat was forced to use will be provided so that assets can be traded elsewhere.

He is also illegally using user deposits to pay for his lawyer. If he continues, the GLBSE cash reserves (which I manage) will not be enough to cover costs and GLBSE will be in debt to users.

I'm very sorry about this, but those shareholders who are sane are helpless against Nefario and the insane shareholders who for some mind-boggling reason think that closing down GLBSE in this way will help both themselves and GLBSE users.

Since Nefario refuses to give complete details about his legal concerns and he has been acting strangely, I feel that it is somewhat possible that Nefario is working under some sort of plea bargain and is gathering IDs for future prosecution.

Nefario has defrauded me and others in several different ways and deserves a scammer tag.
- The BitcoinGlobal bylaws state that BitcoinGlobal's purpose is to operate GLBSE. By shutting down GLBSE without amending the bylaws, Nefario has violated the bylaws.
- He has stated that he would ignore any motion to remove him as CEO.
- He is knowingly making BitcoinGlobal shares worthless, violating his fiduciary duty.
- He is refusing to release my GLBSE balance without my ID, which I did not agree to.

Since my GLBSE shares are now worthless, it should be obvious that I had no knowledge of this before now.

I urge everyone to never work with Nefario again. A Bitcoin stock exchange is a good idea, though. I hope that someone will create something better than GLBSE and MPEx.

Could you clarify this a bit please theymos.  How did he have access to the user deposits?  If he was "borrowing" them without authorisation, that's straight up embezzlement regardless of whether he intended to return them at a later time.  When did the shareholders become aware that he was spending user deposits and how did you become aware of his intention to replace them with money from BitcoinGlobal?  I'm confused about whether the shareholders effectively authorised him taking a "loan" from the business post hoc by agreeing that he would pay back the misappropriated funds from BG money.

I hate to say it, but if you send Nefario user funds knowing full well that he has already misappropriated funds, you're laying yourself wide open to liability. His access to funds needs to be blocked and a way of returning user deposits worked out which doesn't involve Nefario.

Nefario has always held onto most of the user funds so he could top up the hot wallet when necessary. Exactly what funds I should hold was never clearly-defined. I ended up holding all BitcoinGlobal cash on hand plus some of the user funds for when Nefario was away and the hot wallet needed to be refilled.

I assume he's spending user deposits. Maybe he's using his own money, but I don't think he has enough to cover lawyer fees. He said in the meeting that he wants BitcoinGlobal to pay for the lawyer.

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TYGGR Delisting
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Actual stock exchanges that are regulated can delist stocks for a variety of reasons (inluding no longer meeting listing requirements) and are not obligated to protect it's value. The company behind the stocks are ultimately responsible for managing the security, with or without a stock market to trade on. To defraud would have required Nefario to steal those customers funds and run with them.

Fraud is committed on major stock exchanges and those stock exchange can delist stocks no longer fitting the requirements. They are not normally held responsible for that however, they are simply a medium for company and investors to trade assets. That an asset gets delisted does not prevent it's trade over-the-counter between whoever is willing to trade the assets or the company to pay the shareholders.

I can only agree to the fact that the delisting was rashly and poorly executed, definitely in an attempt to sanction Chaang. I can also agree that the delisting method provided for proof of ownership is poorly adequate. An alternative should probably be worked out between Nefario and Chaang on the delisting.

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DMC suspension
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DMC was suspended, unlike many other assets who are not suspended until the owner runs away, because it went down to 0.011 BTC/share trading value. That's 1% of IPO price, something unseen before for an asset with the issuer still active. Diablo-D3 was reinstated as manager after a motion by shareholders passed. An audit was planned and said to be in progress but no further news were given on that matter.

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Nefario's scam accusations
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Quoted from "Scammer tag: Nefario." thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114442.0

I.a. On September 10 he blocked the accounts of DMC, on the grounds that gross negligence possibly amounting to fraud on the part of the asset holder was being alleged in forum threads.

The asset started from an IPO of 1 BTC and ended up trading at 0.011 BTC each, something unseen before. Diablo-D3 was frequently doing DMC to other assets trade-in under the current NAV to entice trades. Each time pushing value down.

I.b. Subsequently he refused to release a list of shareholders on the rationale that it'd be a breach of their privacy rights.

I.c. He also declared an audit will be held but later refused to release the name of the auditor.

I.d. The accounts were later unblocked without any audit being performed, and without any material changes in the alleged facts.

The accounts were unblocked because a motion was accepted, asking shareholders if they wanted to keep Diablo-D3 as the manager.

II.a. On September 25 he unlisted all of goat's assets, vaguely alleging some sort of malfeasance which was never either explained or documented --it may or may not have to do with goat's refusal to sell back some illegitimate shares created on GLBSE by an unauthorized entity which nevertheless were legitimized by Nefario's own declaration but which was quashed by the actual legitimate owners of GLBSE.

II.b. In contradiction to the claims made with I.b. above, Nefario claims to have issued the list of shareholders to Goat and that all obligations remaining exclude GLBSE, and should be handled between goat and investors alone.

Yes, we all agree it was a very rash and expeditive process which could have been planned more thoroughly, with proper delays. It would also be good to provide a more secure method of transferring codes to Goat. Preferably directly get a BTC address from holders that they can submit to GLBSE who can then send the list to goat. goat's shareholders could then communicate with him and sign with their BTC address. Or any other proper method which would have given enough prior notice and would have these things sorted out before the actual delisting of said assets.

III.a. Starting at least as early as September 10 the assets controlled by Usagi (CPA, NYAN.x, BMF) were being scrutinized publicly on this forum for gross negligence possibly amounting to fraud on the part of the asset holder, in the same manner and to an extent equal or greater to that of I.a. above.

III.b. In spite of III.a. Nefario declared Usagi as the head of the ad-hoc commission that was to review GLBSE assets for inclusion in blue/white categories.

III.c. In spite of III.a. and contrary to his conduct in I.a. and II above, Nefario failed to lock the assets controlled by Usagi.

Yes, Usagi's funds were invested in many assets which loss value, especially mining (the whole mining market crashed overall). There has been a subsequent large drop of value in his funds NAV. Some people requested investigation as to if there was negligence/scam on Usagi's part. Nothing was proven so far, other than the selected assets invested in by Usagi's funds might not have been the best. It was however, unlike in DMC's case, a loss in % which was following the loss made by the mining assets Usagi's funds were supposed to be invested into.

As for the part III.b, Nefario never made Usagi the head of a commission to review GLBSE assets to be included or gave him any decisive power. Usagi simply took the initiative to gather issuers/large investors to include in a group to review assets. Nefario refused to give them any decisive power however. He was simply taking feedback and suggestions from them regarding listings and other things since they were already heavy GLBSE users.

For these reasons Nefario should wear the scammer tag unless or until:

A. He personally refunds all investors in any and all Usagi funds to the value of their original investment or

B. He personally refunds all investors in DMC and TYGR-* to the value of their original investment.

tl;dr: You can't have your cake and eat it too, and you can't run away and hide for a couple weeks until people forget. It worked with LIF.x, it worked with the numerous other scams hosted by GLBSE, but it has to end sometime.

According to your claims it does not seem you are accusing Nefario of scamming or defrauding anyone. It seems you are accusing him of being incompetent.

[1714715248]

1714715248

[ianspain]

watching - great thread thanks

[Bugpowder]

FledNanders was trolling.

[Namworld]

FledNanders was trolling.

How would you know without being FledNanders?

[aura.flux]

i think nefario might have gotten the call from the sec guy and before giving answers he is looking for lawyer advice... in such case we wont know all the answers...

[TheBible]

What a joke.  This kind of unprofessional garbage is so typical of this place   You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

Bitcoin is just a hodgepodge of cobbled together half solutions and none of you dares to question it.

Think about all the other times something like this has happened.  Mybitcoin, Zhou, pirate.  They always assure you everything is ok, you people always believe them, and it is always a scam.

[ElectricMucus]

I'm in my Drama fallout shelter with a carton of microwave popcorn. 

[burnside]

What a joke.  This kind of unprofessional garbage is so typical of this place   You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

They go down (FB IPO) and get hacked all the time.  You think they're going to go around publishing it?  They make an insurance claim and it's back to business as usual.

Bitcoin is just a hodgepodge of cobbled together half solutions and none of you dares to question it.

A lot of us are working on the other half.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

[exahash]

  You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

I guess the NASDAQ isn't a real exchange in your book?

[repentance]

A lot of us are working on the other half.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

One problem is that scams and sketchy businesses can proliferate at a much faster rate than legitimate ventures because they bypass the groundwork which is required to set up a legitimate, properly capitalised venture with a viable business plan.  You also have the problem of the types of businesses which consumer demand is driving - which is basically high risk financial services.

[btharper]

What a joke.  This kind of unprofessional garbage is so typical of this place   You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

They go down (FB IPO) and get hacked all the time.  You think they're going to go around publishing it?  They make an insurance claim and it's back to business as usual.

Bitcoin is just a hodgepodge of cobbled together half solutions and none of you dares to question it.

A lot of us are working on the other half.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

A lot of us are working on the other half.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

One problem is that scams and sketchy businesses can proliferate at a much faster rate than legitimate ventures because they bypass the groundwork which is required to set up a legitimate, properly capitalised venture with a viable business plan.  You also have the problem of the types of businesses which consumer demand is driving - which is basically high risk financial services.

+1 to both of these. It has so far been very easy to setup a scam (I've got a business plan, but it's secret and I can't tell you, just give me the money and I'll get you whatever ROI you want). Plenty of things are coming out, to pull from a recent example SDICE just made a big splash, though I think they were still working on finishing out the IPO sales and a lot of people didn't want to invest in 5-10% a year return.

[TheBible]

 You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

I guess the NASDAQ isn't a real exchange in your book?

No customer funds were stolen, and those trading systems themselves weren't even compromised, your point is disproven by the very articles you linked. Perhaps you should have read them first.  

That is a testament to just how solidly those systems were built. Even if they did actually go down, the redundancy is absurd.  Nothing brings down those systems.  None of that even comes close to just how badly Bitcoin systems get compromised and robbed on such a hilariously frequent basis.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, allows its systems to be built and audited by teenagers, then believe wild stories about chinese hackers when they inevitably get hacked and everyone loses a ton of money.

[squid]

hoping for the best....

[Namworld]

 You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

I guess the NASDAQ isn't a real exchange in your book?

No money was stole, and those trading systems themselves weren't even compromised, your point is disproven by the very articles you linked. Perhaps you should have read them first.  

That is a testament to just how solid those systems were built.  None of that even comes close to just how badly Bitcoin systems get compromised and robbed.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, allows its systems to be built and audited by teenagers, then believe wild stories about chinese hackers when they inevitably get hacked and everyone loses a ton of money.

Except nothing says any hack occurred or any funds have been stolen. Let's at least wait until Saturday and see if anything happens before claiming things as a fact.

[TheBible]

 You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

I guess the NASDAQ isn't a real exchange in your book?

No money was stole, and those trading systems themselves weren't even compromised, your point is disproven by the very articles you linked. Perhaps you should have read them first.  

That is a testament to just how solid those systems were built.  None of that even comes close to just how badly Bitcoin systems get compromised and robbed.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, allows its systems to be built and audited by teenagers, then believe wild stories about chinese hackers when they inevitably get hacked and everyone loses a ton of money.

Except nothing says any hack occurred or any funds have been stolen. Let's at least wait until Saturday and see if anything happens before claiming things as a fact.

Hell, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.  I still have the entire history of bitcoin on the side of my argument.  Even if this does turn out to be nothing for the first time ever, I still can't believe you people would put up with being given no info at all when your money is at stake like this.  I thought in a libertarian society, bad service == no business, but not at the bitcoin forums.  Hack an exchange and claim it just went down?  Everyone will believe you and defend you to the bitter end.  That "Thank you Pirate" thread was the best as well as Zhou Tong's Chinese relic collecting millionaire hacker that only he could talk to.  I can't believe they got away with such transparent lies.

It doesn't really matter what really happened.  By the time anyone figures it out, the money will be long gone.

[TheBible]

What a joke.  This kind of unprofessional garbage is so typical of this place   You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

They go down (FB IPO) and get hacked all the time.  You think they're going to go around publishing it?  They make an insurance claim and it's back to business as usual.

Bitcoin is just a hodgepodge of cobbled together half solutions and none of you dares to question it.

A lot of us are working on the other half.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

So you know they get hacked because they don't report it?  Proof by Lack of Evidence is not a strong argument, you know.

And hey, I get that it takes time.  It's not as if you can just develop a decent payment system and get it funded and picked up by a giant, well established company right off the ba-

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/08/08/starbucks-square-deal-mobile-payments-startup-credit-cards/

Oh yeah.

And hey, with Square, I can buy something other than illegal drugs and child porn, and the prices aren't insanely inflated for it.  And it doesn't take 20 minutes to complete the transaction!  I mean, yeah, its basically just another way to spend US Dollars, but so are bitcoins, and we all know it.

[Namworld]

 You never see real exchanges just randomly go down or get massively hacked, because real money and expertise is put into them.

I guess the NASDAQ isn't a real exchange in your book?

No money was stole, and those trading systems themselves weren't even compromised, your point is disproven by the very articles you linked. Perhaps you should have read them first.  

That is a testament to just how solid those systems were built.  None of that even comes close to just how badly Bitcoin systems get compromised and robbed.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, allows its systems to be built and audited by teenagers, then believe wild stories about chinese hackers when they inevitably get hacked and everyone loses a ton of money.

Except nothing says any hack occurred or any funds have been stolen. Let's at least wait until Saturday and see if anything happens before claiming things as a fact.

Hell, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.  I still have the entire history of bitcoin on the side of my argument.  Even if this does turn out to be nothing for the first time ever, I still can't believe you people would put up with being given no info at all when your money is at stake like this.  I thought in a libertarian society, bad service == no business, but not at the bitcoin forums.  Hack an exchange and claim it just went down?  Everyone will believe you and defend you to the bitter end.  That "Thank you Pirate" thread was the best as well as Zhou Tong's Chinese relic collecting millionaire hacker that only he could talk to.  I can't believe they got away with such transparent lies.

It doesn't really matter what really happened.  By the time anyone figures it out, the money will be long gone.

Eh, ideally, yes, bad service == no business and only services close to flawless would survive. Although with the current bitcoin economy being so small and young, I doubt there will be will and interest to make the serious investments required to offer such flawless services, at least for the time being.

As for putting up with it, no, I think everyone is pretty annoyed and expect very good reasons to be given or else... However, it is not the first time unforeseen issues has forced a website to close down, sometimes for many days for businesses much larger than GLBSE. Although usually you'd get an explanation right away. It does seem odd that no further information is given.

As for the money being gone, only the active balance kept for trading is available for theft. Most asset operators move the funds outside of GLBSE to use it and as such the majority should still be in the hand of asset operators. Hopefully, if anything serious is actually going, we will at least have lists to manage things outside GLBSE.

The situation might be as dire as some would think, even if there's reasons to worry. We'll know soon enough.

[k3t3r]

the notice on glbse says

I apologize for the lack of notice and the downtime, but there isn't much choice.

I believe this suggests the intervention of another agency.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Its easy to critisize from safely behind your keyboard but how many of us would be willing to face serious jailtime just to run a bitcoin site ?

Out of all the bitcoin sites glbse is probably the weak link in the chain the authorities might come after to "teach bitcoiners a lesson".

People should be under no illusion the threat Nefario faces if indeed this is happening.

That is all.

[smaynard]

Its easy to critisize from safely behind your keyboard but how many of us would be willing to face serious jailtime just to run a bitcoin site ?

Out of all the bitcoin sites glbse is probably the weak link in the chain the authorities might come after to "teach bitcoiners a lesson".

People should be under no illusion the threat Nefario faces if indeed this is happening.

That is all.

+1