Butterfly Labs invests heavily in high speed production equipment

[CoinHoarder]

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

Do not do it. there are too much fanatical BFL's followers
before is before, before <13 not = <
It would be fair to cancel the bet because of unclear proof, and not sufficiently precise wording bet. But both sides must agree.

Yes, I said before the 13th. However, he said through the 13th.

So at the end of the day, whose statement do we go by? Or do both void each other out as the terms were not clear?

I'm not trying to get off on some technicality, but it was proven that the reflow machine was bought by BFL a day(ish) after we made out bet. So just because they didn't post pictures of it, I lose, even though we know they bought the machine? Pretty lame. But, in the end Bogart's wording may have saved me?

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[Bogart]

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

Do not do it. there are too much fanatical BFL's followers
before is before, before <13 not = <
It would be fair to cancel the bet because of unclear proof, and not sufficiently precise wording bet. But both sides must agree.

Yes, I said before the 13th. However, he said through the 13th.

So at the end of the day, whose statement do we go by? Or do both void each other out as the terms were not clear?

I'm not trying to get off on some technicality, but it was proven that the reflow machine was bought by BFL a day(ish) after we made out bet. So just because they didn't post pictures of it, I lose, even though we know they bought the machine? Pretty lame. But, in the end Bogart's wording may have saved me?

I'll agree to call it off if you will.

I guess in the future we should be more clear with bets.

[Kontakt]

Just go for BoB next time. Make things nice and simple.

[Enigma81]

JUST Saw this thread for the first time.. MyData?  Hahahaha.. "High Speed Pick and Place", um, no...

You want high speed?  Assembleon MG/MX series, Universal Genesis Series, etc..

You want REALLY high speed?  Universal HSP, Sanyo, Assembleon iFlex, Yamaha, Fuji, etc..

And that solder paste printer?  It's slower than dripping dog turds in winter.

Sorry, these guys aren't serious about building hardware.

They're laying down BGA parts, and probably QFN parts.. Do they have X-Ray inspection?  Do they have 3D solder paste inspection?


Enigma

[PuertoLibre]

[..]
They're laying down BGA parts, and probably QFN parts.. Do they have X-Ray inspection?  Do they have 3D solder paste inspection?
[..]

In the spirit of bringing the discussion to a higher level, the above is "translated" into links for further reading.

BGA parts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

A ball grid array (BGA) is a type of surface-mount packaging used for integrated circuits. BGA packages are used to permanently mount devices such as microprocessors. A BGA can provide more interconnection pins than can be put on a dual in-line or flat package. The whole bottom surface of the device can be used, instead of just the perimeter. The leads are also on average shorter than with a perimeter-only type, leading to better performance at high speeds.
Soldering of BGA devices requires precise control and is usually done by automated processes. A BGA device is never mounted in a socket in use.

What is X-Ray Inspection?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_X-ray_inspection

Automated X-ray inspection (AXI) is a technology based on the same principles as automated optical inspection (AOI). It uses X-rays as its source, instead of visible light, to automatically inspect features, which are typically hidden from view.
The increasing usage of ICs (integrated circuit) with packages such as BGAs (ball grid array) where the connections are underneath the chip and not visible, means that ordinary optical inspection is impossible. Because the connections are underneath the chip package there is a greater need to ensure that the manufacturing process is able to accommodate these chips correctly. Additionally the chips that use BGA packages tend to be the larger ones with many connections. Therefore it is essential that all the connections are made correctly.[1]
AXI is often paired with the testing provided by boundary scan test, in-circuit test, and functional test.

QFN parts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad-flat_no-leads_package

Flat no-leads packages such as QFN (quad-flat no-leads) and DFN (dual-flat no-leads) physically and electrically connect integrated circuits to printed circuit boards. Flat no-leads, also known as MicroLeadFrame and SON (small-outline no leads), is a surface-mount technology, one of several package technologies that connect ICs to the surfaces of PCBs without through-holes. Flat no-lead is a near chip scale package plastic encapsulated package made with a planar copper lead frame substrate. Perimeter lands on the package bottom provide electrical connections to the PCB.[1] Flat no-lead packages include an exposed thermal pad to improve heat transfer out of the IC (into the PCB). Heat transfer can be further facilitated by metal vias in the thermal pad.[2] The QFN package is similar to the quad-flat package, and a ball grid array.

Automated optical inspection (AOI)
http://www.goepel.com/en/optical-inspection/aoi-systems/solder-paste-inspection.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGCQEpCD8ts (Step 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8SidZ3wLvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ThMLs-Cuek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQihWCpN9I

[PuertoLibre]

High speed placement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nah4BQ9y8IY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiQLS34A7LU

VS

Low Speed Placement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BRVY6XNdM0

VS

Ultra Low Speed Placement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzTA83WSNoo

[squeept]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

[Kontakt]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

[squeept]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

Calm your jets. I'm one jerk making abrasive comments.

[Kontakt]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

Calm your jets. I'm one jerk making abrasive comments.

Things only get big when people wig out over them.

[yrtrnc]

They also need one of these machines if they want to speed up production http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMIJRtoVDs

[Enigma81]

You guys are funny.  I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had reached the Butterfly Labs Fan Boi Network (BFLFBN).

Since there is no concern about how BFL hardware is built/tested/inspected - I guess their first generation FPGA stuff must have had a zero or near zero failure rate.

Enjoy your day.

Enigma

[squeept]

And I've seen plenty of electronics released that have incredible failure rates, that were designed by teams of hundreds of highly qualified engineers and produced using the most expensive and sophisticated machinery money can buy.

They can build their product with hot air guns, toaster ovens, and hobby soldering irons for all I care, as long as it works. The results are all I'm after, and since those are yet to come, you're just criticizing your own assumptions of future quality.

If a few months from now, their hardware is in the wild and undergoing pandemic levels of failure, then you can gloat and mock and flail your knowledge-peen around all you want. Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

[abeaulieu]

And I've seen plenty of electronics released that have incredible failure rates, that were designed by teams of hundreds of highly qualified engineers and produced using the most expensive and sophisticated machinery money can buy.

They can build their product with hot air guns, toaster ovens, and hobby soldering irons for all I care, as long as it works. The results are all I'm after, and since those are yet to come, you're just criticizing your own assumptions of future quality.

If a few months from now, their hardware is in the wild and undergoing pandemic levels of failure, then you can gloat and mock and flail your knowledge-peen around all you want. Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

Well their singles have done well thus far by what i can tell from lack of ranting on these forums about defective hardware.

It is a little different that they are in-house assembling the SC hardware though. This could be good if they do have to do some re-work to get them out the door on time.

[Enigma81]

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

[squeept]

Wow, that would have made Pee-wee Herman blush.

[michaelmclees]

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

I could be completely wrong here... but the above sounds similar to an auto mechanic insisting that his customer *needs* various things to make his car run property at 100%.  The mechanic is 100% correct, but a perfectly running car isn't what the customer is interested in.  Similarly, perfectly running products from BFL aren't really what I'm interested in.  If they have some downtime... OK.  If I have to finagle them around... fine.  In fact, I'd be happy if they ditched their cases and shipped their stuff open, like other people have shipped their FPGA's.

The fact of the matter is, the initial ASIC race will be won almost entirely by whomever is able to ship first, whether or not the products are 100% free of defects.

[BFL-Engineer]

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

I could be completely wrong here... but the above sounds similar to an auto mechanic insisting that his customer *needs* various things to make his car run property at 100%.  The mechanic is 100% correct, but a perfectly running car isn't what the customer is interested in.  Similarly, perfectly running products from BFL aren't really what I'm interested in.  If they have some downtime... OK.  If I have to finagle them around... fine.  In fact, I'd be happy if they ditched their cases and shipped their stuff open, like other people have shipped their FPGA's.

The fact of the matter is, the initial ASIC race will be won almost entirely by whomever is able to ship first, whether or not the products are 100% free of defects.

Of course I must add that this would be the case if you wish to keep your devices and not switch to other mining hardware. Otherwise, you may earn your hardwares
cost in a short time, but will be spending it to buy some other hardware, thus reducing your end profit.


Regards,
Nasser

[MrTeal]

If I had to make a car mechanic analogy, I would say Enigma's point is more like this:
You don't want to have to rely on the dealership to fix your 2012 Mercedes anymore since it's tough to book an appointment and you don't want to wait anymore. You decide to buy a Chinese OBD-II reader off eBay, a bottle jack from Harbor Freight, a Haynes manual from Amazon and a socket set from Sears and do all your repairs in your garage.

[michaelmclees]

But carrying the analogy, would Enigma say that what you're doing in your garage is simply not enough and you need to get a million dollars worth of tools and equipment from AMG?  That's the analogy.

I don't know if he's correct is my point.  Assuming that he is correct if the average BFL customer will settle for nothing less than 100% perfect, is he still correct if they are willing to restart their machines every week or so?