Butterfly Labs invests heavily in high speed production equipment

[abeaulieu]

See their release:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment

[1714943980]

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[PulsedMedia]

you got the newsletter too
they sent it to me many times

Cool looking equipment tho! and posting it all with the cool pictures and all is a cool marketing "gimmick"

[abeaulieu]

you got the newsletter too
they sent it to me many times

Cool looking equipment tho! and posting it all with the cool pictures and all is a cool marketing "gimmick"

Yup, I got it three times. Per each email address that they had... lol

Very nice equipment. And VERY expensive.

[The-Real-Link]

Darn you beat me to it!

Yeah that one Reflow machine is roughly $30K from what I could find after a quick search.

No idea as to how much the pick and place or other machines are.  Guessing at least as expensive.

Well that's good then as they should be able to pump out pieces much faster once they get up to training and speed in learning the new equipment.

[abeaulieu]

Darn you beat me to it!

Yeah that one Reflow machine is roughly $30K from what I could find after a quick search.

No idea as to how much the pick and place or other machines are.  Guessing at least as expensive.

Well that's good then as they should be able to pump out pieces much faster once they get up to training and speed in learning the new equipment.

Reflow machines are just glorified ovens. (not really incredibly special IMHO).

Pick and place machines are much more complicated and typically a lot more expensive. But of course you pay heavily for performance of these machines (how many reels or strips of parts you can load into it, how many arms there are, how fast the arm moves, the precision of the placement, etc.)

[DobZombie]

noice!

[Paladin69]

So they can more quickly fill those government orders and 51% attack

[jayeeyee]

Got the newsletter in my inbox as well.  Unfortunately, I wasn't impressed since all the images shown were examples and none from their facility.  Even if they took some "in-the-works" shots.. it would be more reassuring than the current newsletter.

[fuxianhui888]

I got it 6 times!!!!

[tacotime]

What are they using a light microscope and fan ducting for?

[dust]

I hope they also bought some esd mats and wrist straps this time!

[neotrino]

Got the newsletter in my inbox as well.  Unfortunately, I wasn't impressed since all the images shown were examples and none from their facility.  Even if they took some "in-the-works" shots.. it would be more reassuring than the current newsletter.

Indeed. Look at the pictures EXIF data:

• The first one is dated on 2009
• The third one says "Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.M2b"

[yuancraft]

+1

[bitmar]

Why a picture "$ (KGrHqV,! l0F! hHkmETFBQYJ, 63i0w ~ ~ 60_3.jpg" is downloaded from ebay?
This is not a photo taken by BFL just downloaded from ebay. It is easy to check, type in google "http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$"
   $(KGrHqV,!l0F!h.......  Its ebay file naming.





I found it yet :  "Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.M2b"

[bitmar]

Date taken this picture by: EXIF  2009:02:18 4:12:17 p.m.

[bitmar]

This image also can be found in http://images.google.com
Type MPMSPM

http://www.google.com/imgres?start=45&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=622&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=d_I7GM-4pfwnrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.caeonline.com/listing/product/157479/mpm-spm&docid=EAJ11E96oNqLdM&itg=1&imgurl=http://images.caeonline.com/im.php%253Fid%253D%252520207137&w=448&h=418&ei=DshuUL9jysW0BtGUgcAG&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=904&vpy=100&dur=6778&hovh=217&hovw=232&tx=32&ty=243&sig=111594285518178604383&page=3&tbnh=143&tbnw=164&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:45,i:250

[cedivad]

"BFL plan B"

...

!

I admit that the ESSEMTEC one cheated me, I tought it be authentic.

[abeaulieu]

What are they using a light microscope and fan ducting for?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not but those are more crucial for assembly and inspection than the assembly machines...

I think it has already been pointed out that these picture are not actually at their facility though

[bitmar]

"BFL plan B"

...

!

I admit that the ESSEMTEC one cheated me, I tought it be authentic.

Or BFL plan C - take the money and run away 

They produce invisible ASIC using invisible production equipment. It is a pity that people do not pay invisible money.

[dust]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

[bitmar]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

[bitmar]

This machine was also on sale?  http://www.sendec-cem.com/electronics-manufacturing-services/facility-and-equipment/172-mydata-my9
It is easy to check.

[squeept]

How despicable! I have never in my life heard of a company reusing images without permission on the Internet! The horror!

[freeAgent]

It would be great to see photos of these devices actually in the hands of BFL and producing ASICs.  Hopefully that's what we'll see at least during/after the site-visit that they're setting up.

[bitmar]

It would be great to see photos of these devices actually in the hands of BFL and producing ASICs.  Hopefully that's what we'll see at least during/after the site-visit that they're setting up.

I agree. It would be great. Now only fake images, same empty promises and no proof of their work.  They know how to attract customers and destroy the competitors, I hope they do as good hardware.

[fuxianhui888]

It would be great to see photos of these devices actually in the hands of BFL and producing ASICs.  Hopefully that's what we'll see at least during/after the site-visit that they're setting up.

I agree. It would be great. Now only fake images, same empty promises and no proof of their work.  They know how to attract customers and destroy the competitors, I hope they do as good hardware.

if they really have these devices,why not took a picture with their own camera,I can't understand that

[fuxianhui888]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

[mc_lovin]

Very convenient.  My concern level went from yellow to orange again.

Screenshot of paypal invoice with sensitive data removed would prove it.

[dust]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area.  

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

Oct. 8 EDIT: I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

[cedivad]

Do
{
Discover proof against BFL
Forget about it and hope they delivery
Sleep(3600*24*10)
}
While (!delivered)

[mc_lovin]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area. 

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I did the same

[CoinHoarder]

You guys come up with something new every other day on how BFL is scamming us. Get some proof or GTFO. If you went around doing this in the real world, you'd be sued for slander in a second.

I hope BFL sues you guys for defamation, then maybe some of you will think twice before posting BS without any proof.

[bitmar]

You guys come up with something new every other day on how BFL is scamming us. Get some proof or GTFO. If you went around doing this in the real world, you'd be sued for slander in a second.

I hope BFL sues you guys for defamation, then maybe some of you will think twice before posting BS without any proof.

That's not the point. I'm not looking for evidence that they are scammers. They discredit themselves. Do you expect that there will be no one responded to their suspicious behavior? Nobody remembers the Pirate??? Too much scams there is in the world and the people are too naive. Companies should themselves take care of  credibility. BFL has published a proud announcement with "stolen" photos from the web. This is suspicious behavior so it is our reaction. We just want to explanations.

[superfastkyle]

You guys come up with something new every other day on how BFL is scamming us. Get some proof or GTFO. If you went around doing this in the real world, you'd be sued for slander in a second.

I hope BFL sues you guys for defamation, then maybe some of you will think twice before posting BS without any proof.

Hmm it seems common practice around here to ask for pictures of items in the for sale section. If they repost pics, they often get called scammers. Why should bfl be held to a different standard?

[Inaba]

Ummm, BFL isn't selling the items?

[superfastkyle]

Ummm, BFL isn't selling the items?

my point exactly bfl isn't selling anything

[Serge]

Ummm, BFL isn't selling the items?

Inaba, what's the best way to reach someone at BFL about order upgrade? I emailed earlier today and haven't got a reply yet. 
Thanks

[Inaba]

Email office@butterflylabs.com.  We get hundreds of emails per day, sometimes I can take awhile to get to yours if it's been a particularly heavy day. 

(Yes, we get ~400 emails per day on average, sometimes much more than that)

[bustaballs]

If this really were a scam  and they got away with it, it would be one of the most genius and elaborate scams ever conducted on the internet. They pretend to be a real business and sell real products only to, more than a year later, take a bunch of money and run even though they are allowing bank wires for payment. Maybe the three other competitors are also in it. They even got Inaba in it. This is just false flag 9/11 all over again.

These people have already confirmed they are a legitimate business for a long time. Many of the scam conspiracy theories have been debunked over and over. There is zero evidence that this is a scam. If you really think it's a scam then just don't order. It's pretty simple. There's no reason to spam every single BFL thread with your nonsense.

[Serge]

Email office@butterflylabs.com.  We get hundreds of emails per day, sometimes I can take awhile to get to yours if it's been a particularly heavy day.  

(Yes, we get ~400 emails per day on average, sometimes much more than that)

Thanks. That's the address I emailed, going to wait for reply, hoping there isn't going to be a serious backlog for you guys sorting through all of them

PS an upgrade order form would of been nice 

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

If this really were a scam  and they got away with it, it would be one of the most genius and elaborate scams ever conducted on the internet. They pretend to be a real business and sell real products only to, more than a year later, take a bunch of money and run even though they are allowing bank wires for payment. Maybe the three other competitors are also in it. They even got Inaba in it. This is just false flag 9/11 all over again.

These people have already confirmed they are a legitimate business for a long time. Many of the scam conspiracy theories have been debunked over and over. There is zero evidence that this is a scam. If you really think it's a scam then just don't order. It's pretty simple. There's no reason to spam every single BFL thread with your nonsense.

+This. Get over it

[superfastkyle]

+This. Get over it

I would get over it if it wasn't for the fact that I want bitcoin to succeed and these perpetual scams are going to kill it if we let it. The increase of scams in even the last month or two is huge. Sometimes I can not believe the blind trust people have in certain forum members/businesses. I remember saying a couple months ago if nothing happened with bitcoinica we would have a huge influx of major scams, as there are almost 0 consequences for pulling off a million dollar scam. Just since bitcoinica we have had pirateat40, Matthews default, Hashkings default, bitfloor frozen accounts, glbse down and who knows what I forgot. As time goes on people lose faith, but there are still those people who cling to it almost indefinitely.

Also how was Sonny's first scam much less elaborate than this one? anybody remember those fake used car warranties? that was pretty elaborate. Elaborate scams do happen quite often.


"and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods." - Adolf Hitler

edit: fixed wrongly quoted...

[crazyates]

+This. Get over it

I would get over it if it wasn't for the fact that I want bitcoin to succeed and these perpetual scams are going to kill it if we let it. The increase of scams in even the last month or two is huge. Sometimes I can not believe the blind trust people have in certain forum members/businesses. I remember saying a couple months ago if nothing happened with bitcoinica we would have a huge influx of major scams, as there are almost 0 consequences for pulling off a million dollar scam. Just since bitcoinica we have had pirateat40, Matthews default, Hashkings default, bitfloor frozen accounts, glbse down and who knows what I forgot. As time goes on people lose faith, but there are still those people who cling to it almost indefinitely.

Also how was Sonny's first scam much less elaborate than this one? anybody remember those fake used car warranties? that was pretty elaborate. Elaborate scams do happen quite often.

"and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods." - Adolf Hitler

edit: fixed wrongly quoted...

Cautious is one thing. Throwing out accusations to everyone and their grandmother is another. Try looking through a critical eye, rather than a condemning one.

[superfastkyle]

well I'm over it, as obviously there are no minds to change at this point. You keep using your "critical eye" and I will use my "condemning eye", we'll see how each one turns out

[melmo]

Wow, 20 years ago I used to work in the electronics manufacturing industry and bought a Panasonic Panasert SMT pick & place machine for around $1M.  Heck, even the software to optimize the part placement and order of the part spools cost close to a million - but we didn't buy that, we had our own custom software.

Hard to believe you can buy one off eBay now.  Times have changed!  I wonder if the warranty is transferable?

[Bogart]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

[CoinHoarder]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

[cedivad]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Quoted.

[CoinHoarder]

Easy money 

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

It won't take long to get from Texas

[bitmar]

from:  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment?page=2#comments
"BFL_Josh - 10-05-2012, 06:56 PM  Reply
Those pictures are the pictures we based the purchase off of. We did not inquire as to the GPS coordinates of their origin and assume that the pictures represent the actual product. If they don't, well then, we will deal with that then."

What will be the next explanation? "Seller cheated us" ? I hope not. We are waiting for photos of equipment in your company. good luck

[PuertoLibre]

from:  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment?page=2#comments
"BFL_Josh - 10-05-2012, 06:56 PM  Reply
Those pictures are the pictures we based the purchase off of. We did not inquire as to the GPS coordinates of their origin and assume that the pictures represent the actual product. If they don't, well then, we will deal with that then."

What will be the next explanation? "Seller cheated us" ? I hope not. We are waiting for photos of equipment in your company. good luck

Have they actually taken any pictures of their offices? (Outside and Interior?)

Someone might want to ask BFL for some reference photos to allay fears of the community.

It would also shed some light on what the operation looks like on the inside. Some of those machines consume quite a bit of power when they are in full operation. I assume your standard office space might not have the juice to run all that equipment. (Then again, I could be wrong)

Has anyone actually ever seen the photos of the inside of their offices or warehouse/receiving location? I know this is a strange question to ask of a company....but considering they are a small company and they actually participate in user forums....this does not sound out of the line.

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

[Inaba]

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

You must be new here, so let me answer this for you:  No it wouldn't.

[cedivad]

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

You must be new here, so let me answer this for you:  No it wouldn't.

Yes it would.

I would stop for at least 2 weeks.

I promise.

[Inaba]

Yes, for two weeks, starting three weeks ago.

[Bogart]

Have they actually taken any pictures of their offices? (Outside and Interior?)

Someone might want to ask BFL for some reference photos to allay fears of the community.

It would also shed some light on what the operation looks like on the inside. Some of those machines consume quite a bit of power when they are in full operation. I assume your standard office space might not have the juice to run all that equipment. (Then again, I could be wrong)

Has anyone actually ever seen the photos of the inside of their offices or warehouse/receiving location? I know this is a strange question to ask of a company....but considering they are a small company and they actually participate in user forums....this does not sound out of the line.

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

BFL has had tons of opportunities like this one to show the goods and allay ppls fears, and they have taken none of them.

If they were to take such an opportunity, it would do a lot to boost confidence in their product, and probably spur an increase in sales.

So why haven't they done this?  Well, my money is on the simplest explanation...

[bustaballs]

Shouldn't you guys be on some fake moon landing aliens website?

[superfastkyle]

I don't know why you think that not believing everything we hear from BFL labs makes us some crazies or conspiracy theorists. Its usually safer to question things when something looks fishy. I did when I seen that the photos did not look like they were taken at the same place. Different lighting, different flooring, different quality photos, on top of the fact that a usual scam technique is to steal pictures off other websites and call them your own. And I'm using the information I found and lowering my possibility of their release. I used to have gigaming shares to hedge the release of BFL asic, now (conveniently) I didn't think it was necessary any longer and sold them. A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

Shouldn't you guys be on some fake moon landing aliens website?

[Bogart]

A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

That is, in fact, my opinion currently (regarding the SC product line, not the known-to-exist FPGA products).  I place it's probability of being correct around 75%.

I can't fathom why else they would be behaving the way that they are.  Surely being more transparent could do nothing but bring them more business.

[PuertoLibre]

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

You must be new here, so let me answer this for you:  No it wouldn't.

Yes, I am new to this community.

Have you tried to actually do this before? From the way your talking to me, either you have done it and it failed (for some reason?) or you haven't and aren't willing to try.

Do you have a PR person? [a Professional]

I only know that one of your former products allegedly under performed and didn't live up to expectations. So I understand that angst in "these people". Beyond that, considering you have actually delivered products before to a market....why do you guys have such an incredibly bad reputation? Your company suffers from a very bad image seemingly beyond that bad product launch.

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around? Or at least provide the contradictory evidence that forces naysayers to back down?

I am going to be asking the exact same question of Avalon. I expect they will be forthcoming about their operation.

--------------------------

The people behind Avalon seem to have also delivered products to market as you have. They don't face anywhere near the same scrutiny and PR problems that your company does. Why is that? You might have a ton of orders but anytime anything [even tiny things] goes wrong it will just add to the bad PR.

Don't get mad, hire some professional, figure out what you can do to clean up that pervasive image of your company and solicit the help of forums Admins to intervene if someone says something which is verifiably false.

---------------------------

Full Disclosure: I am buying one of the Avalon Units. Originally, before I surfed this forum, I considered BFL the best option. Yet after reading through the forum I have decided to go with a company who users are less wary of. (A positive reputation)

Your company [BFL] looks like it has a lot more business and orders in its pipeline than any other. But after reading through the community your bad PR has "scared me away" from placing an order. If too many people are saying there is something wrong, then there is probably something to it. <---That is the pervasive impression I got.

Imagine that, I am going to buy from some company in CHINA...than feel confident in a company closer to home. That is the state of things from my corner.

If something [further] goes wrong in one of BFLs products what does that solidify in my mind?

To someone whom is seeing and reading that inundation of bad PR [whether it be true or actually very false and baseless], what does a lifetime of warranty and higher performance rating actually mean if most everyone is constantly hammering on about how many bad points BFL has? You would have to either own BFL hardware and by virtue of experience know of the reliability OR trust in what others have said.

It makes it feel more like "a gamble" with 1.3k (or equivalent bitcoins) than it really should be. I want to buy from your company what I need for mining. But damn, considering what has been the focus of things, it makes it feel much more risky than it actually probably is.

I am going to the company in China simply because they have a better reputation (or lack thereof). (even if it is baseless)

That is a very messed up situation!

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

I don't know why you think that not believing everything we hear from BFL labs makes us some crazies or conspiracy theorists. Its usually safer to question things when something looks fishy. I did when I seen that the photos did not look like they were taken at the same place. Different lighting, different flooring, different quality photos, on top of the fact that a usual scam technique is to steal pictures off other websites and call them your own. And I'm using the information I found and lowering my possibility of their release. I used to have gigaming shares to hedge the release of BFL asic, now (conveniently) I didn't think it was necessary any longer and sold them. A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

WTF is wrong with all these people!? I swear I have met the weirdest bunch of freaking weirdos ever since I have started participating in this community. Like I said before, some of you guys seriously beat the XBOX live crowd hands down and that is really saying something because their are some messed up people in that particular community so you freaks deserve a cookie of something.
Anyways, why do you care whether Butterfly Labs is big or small, clean or dirty, LLC or Sole proprietorship? Why would any of these things matter? Why would you waste your life away on investigating useless conspiracies as these? I don't even own a BFL product yet(I wish I owned 5 singles for the last 5 months), and I could care less how clean the owner's ass is after he wipes it or how many times he shakes his pecker after he takes a leak! Would any of this shit affect my hashrate and therefore would it affect my profit? Hell No! So STFU and Get over it! I don't care if homosexual pornos are being made just on the other side of the production warehouse as long as no bodily fluids make contact with my product I'm ok with whatever goes on there. Shouldn't delivery, performance, and warranty be the only concerns we have? Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

[fcmatt]

I don't know why you think that not believing everything we hear from BFL labs makes us some crazies or conspiracy theorists. Its usually safer to question things when something looks fishy. I did when I seen that the photos did not look like they were taken at the same place. Different lighting, different flooring, different quality photos, on top of the fact that a usual scam technique is to steal pictures off other websites and call them your own. And I'm using the information I found and lowering my possibility of their release. I used to have gigaming shares to hedge the release of BFL asic, now (conveniently) I didn't think it was necessary any longer and sold them. A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

WTF is wrong with all these people!? I swear I have met the weirdest bunch of freaking weirdos ever since I have started participating in this community. Like I said before, some of you guys seriously beat the XBOX live crowd hands down and that is really saying something because their are some messed up people in that particular community so you freaks deserve a cookie of something.
Anyways, why do you care whether Butterfly Labs is big or small, clean or dirty, LLC or Sole proprietorship? Why would any of these things matter? Why would you waste your life away on investigating useless conspiracies as these? I don't even own a BFL product yet(I wish I owned 5 singles for the last 5 months), and I could care less how clean the owner's ass is after he wipes it or how many times he shakes his pecker after he takes a leak! Would any of this shit affect my hashrate and therefore would it affect my profit? Hell No! So STFU and Get over it! I don't care if homosexual pornos are being made just on the other side of the production warehouse as long as no bodily fluids make contact with my product I'm ok with whatever goes on there. Shouldn't delivery, performance, and warranty be the only concerns we have? Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

^^^^^^
This is why bitcoin seems to have a never ending line of suckers to fall into the next scam.

[Inaba]

Have you tried to actually do this before? From the way your talking to me, either you have done it and it failed (for some reason?) or you haven't and aren't willing to try.

Yes, yes we have.  There is no amount of proof or information that will satisfy people.  Keep reading as to why.

I only know that one of your former products allegedly under performed and didn't live up to expectations. So I understand that angst in "these people". Beyond that, considering you have actually delivered products before to a market....why do you guys have such an incredibly bad reputation? Your company suffers from a very bad image seemingly beyond that bad product launch.

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around? Or at least provide the contradictory evidence that forces naysayers to back down?

Just like they doubted it before, but low and behold, here we are.  We are even shipping thousands of products and people still doubt it.  So no, no amount of "proof" would be enough.

The people behind Avalon seem to have also delivered products to market as you have. They don't face anywhere near the same scrutiny and PR problems that your company does. Why is that? You might have a ton of orders but anytime anything [even tiny things] goes wrong it will just add to the bad PR.

Because their marketshare is about 1% of ours.  It's easy to make everyone happy when you are dealing in small quantities of orders.

Don't get mad, hire some professional, figure out what you can do to clean up that pervasive image of your company and solicit the help of forums Admins to intervene if someone says something which is verifiably false.

So here's where you really go wrong in your assumptions.  There is no amount of PR that will satisfy the people on these forums.  Nothing.  They like to troll, no matter what the occasion.  It's like a national pastime.  The forum admins will not (and nor should they) intervene when someone says something verifiably false, because that would cut the forum chatter down to a mere trickle.  Most people posting the conspiracy theories or all the negativity are posting verifiably false information.  You can go and point out where every single point someone makes is false, show them complete documentations as to why it's false, give them mathematical proofs that are undisputed the world over, but it makes no difference.  

There is very little point in engaging with the Bitcoin Talk community, unless it's for entertainment value.  The signal to noise ratio and troll to user ratio is so extreme as to make it virtually useless.

Your company [BFL] looks like it has a lot more business and orders in its pipeline than any other. But after reading through the community your bad PR has "scared me away" from placing an order. If too many people are saying there is something wrong, then there is probably something to it. <---That is the pervasive impression I got.

Totally understandable from reading these forums.  As I said, if you get anything but entertainment value from the forums you are being mislead.

Imagine that, I am going to buy from some company in CHINA...than feel confident in a company closer to home. That is the state of things from my corner.

We'll be glad to sell you a profitable product when your new instantly unprofitable one shows up and you decide it's not worth your time to pay more in electricity than it earns, just let us know.

To someone whom is seeing and reading that inundation of bad PR [whether it be true or actually very false and baseless], what does a lifetime of warranty and higher performance rating actually mean if most everyone is constantly hammering on about how many bad points BFL has? You would have to either own BFL hardware and by virtue of experience know of the reliability OR trust in what others have said.

Exactly.  The signal to noise ratio is to high here, you can't make an accurate assessment of the situation.  However, the vast majority of the people who own BFL products are very happy with them.  Strange, that would surely be, if what your read on these forums is true, no?  

Beside, everyone loves to hate on the "king of the hill" as it were.

It makes it feel more like "a gamble" with 1.3k (or equivalent bitcoins) than it really should be. I want to buy from your company what I need for mining. But damn, considering what has been the focus of things, it makes it feel much more risky than it actually probably is.

Then stop reading these forums, because you won't get any actual content unless you know how to sift through the garbage and 99% of it is garbage.  Good luck.

When you sift through all the crap, here's the crux of the problem people have with BFL:

BFL won't tell it's secrets. BFL is not open about everything they do.  In no other industry would this be considered abnormal... but here apparently keeping trade secrets is a cardinal sin.  Well, when you're talking about millions of dollars of investment at risk for revealing those secrets, well then, it's just too bad.  

People just HATE the fact that we seem to be able to do things no one else can with our hardware (even now, our FPGA miners are the fastest, cheapest mining devices available.).  The ASICs only make this even more pronounced and that makes people crazy because we won't reveal the magic behind it. (It's unicorn blood, BTW).

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

Exactly what that guy just said

[BFL-Engineer]

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

You must be new here, so let me answer this for you:  No it wouldn't.

Yes, I am new to this community.

Have you tried to actually do this before? From the way your talking to me, either you have done it and it failed (for some reason?) or you haven't and aren't willing to try.

Do you have a PR person? [a Professional]

I only know that one of your former products allegedly under performed and didn't live up to expectations. So I understand that angst in "these people". Beyond that, considering you have actually delivered products before to a market....why do you guys have such an incredibly bad reputation? Your company suffers from a very bad image seemingly beyond that bad product launch.

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around? Or at least provide the contradictory evidence that forces naysayers to back down?

I am going to be asking the exact same question of Avalon. I expect they will be forthcoming about their operation.

--------------------------

The people behind Avalon seem to have also delivered products to market as you have. They don't face anywhere near the same scrutiny and PR problems that your company does. Why is that? You might have a ton of orders but anytime anything [even tiny things] goes wrong it will just add to the bad PR.

Don't get mad, hire some professional, figure out what you can do to clean up that pervasive image of your company and solicit the help of forums Admins to intervene if someone says something which is verifiably false.

---------------------------

Full Disclosure: I am buying one of the Avalon Units. Originally, before I surfed this forum, I considered BFL the best option. Yet after reading through the forum I have decided to go with a company who users are less wary of. (A positive reputation)

Your company [BFL] looks like it has a lot more business and orders in its pipeline than any other. But after reading through the community your bad PR has "scared me away" from placing an order. If too many people are saying there is something wrong, then there is probably something to it. <---That is the pervasive impression I got.

Imagine that, I am going to buy from some company in CHINA...than feel confident in a company closer to home. That is the state of things from my corner.

If something [further] goes wrong in one of BFLs products what does that solidify in my mind?

To someone whom is seeing and reading that inundation of bad PR [whether it be true or actually very false and baseless], what does a lifetime of warranty and higher performance rating actually mean if most everyone is constantly hammering on about how many bad points BFL has? You would have to either own BFL hardware and by virtue of experience know of the reliability OR trust in what others have said.

It makes it feel more like "a gamble" with 1.3k (or equivalent bitcoins) than it really should be. I want to buy from your company what I need for mining. But damn, considering what has been the focus of things, it makes it feel much more risky than it actually probably is.

I am going to the company in China simply because they have a better reputation (or lack thereof). (even if it is baseless)

That is a very messed up situation!

Hello PuertoLibre,

I usually don't respond to unfriendly posts, but I need to address it every once in a while. As much as we respect BitcoinTalk fourm, for unknown reasons, there is a rumor-generator
about us in this forum. This machine is fully plugged and does not seem to stop. Every time we address an issue ( accusation, rumor etc ), it takes maybe 15 minutes until the next
rumor/conspiracy theory shows up. As a result we've given up paying attention to them. If this was to end at some point, we would've done our best to get to that point.

I personally believe that it's because we came up with a revolutionary product. It forced many GPU miners to convert, also created a risk for their business. Not all GPU miners were happy
about it and a number of them started to hate us. The other portion of the rumors appear to be arranged in some way, intended to attack Butterfly Labs. Speculation is also not uncommon,
as it's the nature of human and society to enjoy evaluating and examining both real and imaginary situations.


Regards,
Nasser

[Bogart]

Do you have a PR person? [a Professional]

...

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around?

Many of you on bitcointalk.org forums know me as “Inaba,” the operator of the Eclipse Mining Consortium bitcoin pool.  In approximately two weeks I will also be wearing a different hat.  As you may be able to guess from my new forum name, I will be working with and for BFL.  Effective August 13, 2012 I have accepted the position of Chief Operating Officer of BF Labs INC. (Butterfly Labs)

BFL is the clear technical leader in the FPGA and upcoming ASIC mining space.  As a direct result, the company has grown very quickly over the past year.  Unfortunately, its customer service, which was initially very good, did not scale fast enough, which caused customer relations and transparency to suffer. BFL is eager to improve and one of my top responsibilities in this new position is to focus on that specific issue.  I am, have always been and will always be committed to good customer service and transparency when it comes to bitcoin in general and the daily operations of related activities.  This is where I will be focusing much of my initial attention...

[squid]

I don't know why you think that not believing everything we hear from BFL labs makes us some crazies or conspiracy theorists. Its usually safer to question things when something looks fishy. I did when I seen that the photos did not look like they were taken at the same place. Different lighting, different flooring, different quality photos, on top of the fact that a usual scam technique is to steal pictures off other websites and call them your own. And I'm using the information I found and lowering my possibility of their release. I used to have gigaming shares to hedge the release of BFL asic, now (conveniently) I didn't think it was necessary any longer and sold them. A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

WTF is wrong with all these people!? I swear I have met the weirdest bunch of freaking weirdos ever since I have started participating in this community. Like I said before, some of you guys seriously beat the XBOX live crowd hands down and that is really saying something because their are some messed up people in that particular community so you freaks deserve a cookie of something.
Anyways, why do you care whether Butterfly Labs is big or small, clean or dirty, LLC or Sole proprietorship? Why would any of these things matter? Why would you waste your life away on investigating useless conspiracies as these? I don't even own a BFL product yet(I wish I owned 5 singles for the last 5 months), and I could care less how clean the owner's ass is after he wipes it or how many times he shakes his pecker after he takes a leak! Would any of this shit affect my hashrate and therefore would it affect my profit? Hell No! So STFU and Get over it! I don't care if homosexual pornos are being made just on the other side of the production warehouse as long as no bodily fluids make contact with my product I'm ok with whatever goes on there. Shouldn't delivery, performance, and warranty be the only concerns we have? Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

If BFL stopped being so shady with how they present their information then there would be significantly less conspiracy theorists. BFL seriously needs to hire a PR person whose head isn't up their ass.

[Inaba]

See that's the thing, most industries don't even provide information. We provide some and somehow it's "shady."  Whatever.

You'd be bitching and moaning if it didn't provide the information.  You're bitching and moaning because we do provide the information.  No win all the way around.

[squeept]

I demand proof that Inaba actually exists.

[squid]

See that's the thing, most industries don't even provide information. We provide some and somehow it's "shady."  Whatever.

You'd be bitching and moaning if it didn't provide the information.  You're bitching and moaning because we do provide the information.  No win all the way around.

The latest (ie copying images from ebay auctions) is just the latest of half truths that only hurt BFL reputation rather than their intended effect.

1. http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-offers-lifetime-warranty-asic-competition-surges-on/

Images from an ebay list, it just doesn't make sense.. obviously people are going to be suspicious when they saw this. Why wouldn't you just wait for the equipment to be arrived and set up? This is once again trying to be deceitful with PR tactics to benefit your company. Pre-order rate slowing down due to backlog? Let's just give lifetime warranty and talk about our high speed infrastructure that shows we can pump out ASICs quickly in an attempt to increase the preorder rate. Had you not been called out, BFL I'm sure would not have said these were recently purchased and are currently in transit rather than pretending like the fab infrastructure was already in place.

2. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/16-Announcement-BFL-ASIC-Release-specifications

Going over this post, BFL tries very hard to make it seem like devices are actually made without actually saying devices are made. Speed and power figures are given, but in reality are probably just estimates based on simulations, not actual figures. If an actual device was made surely you would have better proof than (for example) pasting an image of the FPGA single on your upgrade page or posting just renders of housings.

Second, the "firmware" upgrade logic to be honest doesn't really make sense. A 50% performance boost just by upgrading firmware? People reading this will obviously be suspicious, my speculation is that you are simply adding more chips than previously estimated to keep your devices competitive, but of course you can't say that since you are trying to make people think you have a working prototype (which in all likelyhood doesn't exist, and won't exist until we see actual devices).


It's things like that, that any person with half a brain can see as "fishy" (not I didn't say scam) that hurt BFL's reputation.

[Inaba]

Second, the "firmware" upgrade logic to be honest doesn't really make sense. A 50% performance boost just by upgrading firmware? People reading this will obviously be suspicious, my speculation is that you are simply adding more chips than previously estimated to keep your devices competitive, but of course you can't say that since you are trying to make people think you have a working prototype (which in all likelyhood doesn't exist, and won't exist until we see actual devices).

Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product).  That has not changed.  Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin.

You are a perfect example of why people are never happy.  "Tell us everything you do as you're doing it."  

So we do.  "Oh shit you are lying because they are eBay pictures!"

Don't tell us until it's actually ready.  "Oh shit!  You are lying because if you actually were making these things, you'd show us where you're at right now!"

Heh.  Thanks for illustrating my point so nicely.

[squid]

Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product).  That has not changed.  Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin.

Great non-answer. How about being more specific. Were initial estimates based on having 8 chips in the sc for example or was that increased to remain competitive? I am still calling bullshit on the "firmware upgrade" story.

So we do.  "Oh shit you are lying because they are eBay pictures!"

I am not saying you guys are lying. I am saying you are being deceitful with half truths. Had no one called you out you guys would have continued to portray it as if you had this system set up and operational when in reality it was just purchased.

Don't tell us until it's actually ready.  "Oh shit!  You are lying because if you actually were making these things, you'd show us where you're at right now!"

I have no doubt that BFL with eventually release a product. What I don't like is deliberate misinformation designed to make it SEEM like you are farther along than you actually are. This is especially the case with the piss poor attempts I gave above.

That type of tactic is what is actually hurting BFL's reputation. You think all the crackpots screaming "scam", or "vaporware" or whatever is hurting your rep, but it isn't.

What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality.

[superfastkyle]

Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

I guess I didn't make myself clear, I'm over trying to change minds/argue. When people can't find facts to argue with you is usually when they switch to name calling. But your calling people crazy that you don't know. Some people like to know as much as they can when they are investing in a company, because that's basically what bfl customers are, investors. I had initially considered becoming one back when they started preorders, but still I like to know info because it effects my business and my future profitability. Its obvious that there are people on both sides whose mind will not change no matter what evidence to the contrary. If I do find something peculiar in new information given by BFL I might post it but from now on its gonna be in a strictly factual tone and let people make their own assumptions. I understand people have a lot of money riding on this and its making people crazy.

[The-Real-Link]

Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product).  That has not changed.  Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin.

What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality.

Then guess what?  Wait.  Either by them releasing no product or them eventually releasing a product with specs, you win.  

No other hardware manufacturer releases the kinds of information this forum asks for until their product is ready.  You might get a leaked GPU shot from China but all chip vendors release general figures, and then a presentation upon when the product is final.

I understand the difference between cautious vs complacent, but again, don't like it?  Don't order.  Done.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the paranoia of wanting to know how everything is coming along when lots of funds are on the line.  But since any company for good reason can't tell you everything, you'll have to evaluate for yourself as to if BFL is a good investment for you.  Many here so far feel it is.  If you don't feel it fits your requirements for peace of mind, go somewhere else.

[Kontakt]

Well, I haven't put down any money for a Jalapeno specifically because of all these rumors. I don't necessarily distrust BFL, but all these rumors make me nervous. Especially the way anyone who represents BFL seems to treat it, with a mix of condescension and irritation. This is exactly the same way of talking I remember from high school when you would call out a braggart. Inaba says they've tried to assuage the doubters, but I've never seen a post-production picture of a  Jalapeno, at least, not to my knowledge, and the BFL labs page just seems a bit sterile. The drivers page lists off those other drivers, but they don't do anything. It seems shady when combined with all those other things that keep popping up. It just makes me nervous.

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

[squid]

Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product).  That has not changed.  Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin.

What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality.

Then guess what?  Wait.  Either by them releasing no product or them eventually releasing a product with specs, you win.  

No other hardware manufacturer releases the kinds of information this forum asks for until their product is ready.  You might get a leaked GPU shot from China but all chip vendors release general figures, and then a presentation upon when the product is final.

I understand the difference between cautious vs complacent, but again, don't like it?  Don't order.  Done.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the paranoia of wanting to know how everything is coming along when lots of funds are on the line.  But since any company for good reason can't tell you everything, you'll have to evaluate for yourself as to if BFL is a good investment for you.  Many here so far feel it is.  If you don't feel it fits your requirements for peace of mind, go somewhere else.

I am merely trying to explain to Josh (and the rest of BFL) why they are seeing so many people call them and be suspicious (esp with a community with so many scammers). It's a direct results of their actions and poor PR.

[superfastkyle]

The problem was is too many people were willing to put thousands of dollars on the line for lots of gigahashes, with absolutely no proof. Now with the recent large bitcoin scams they realize its possible they made a mistake. They either get defensive or they crave for any evidence they can find. This should have been done more like a kickstarter project. Problem is, BFL is not AMD, they aren't Apple. They aren't a publicly traded company and therefore don't have much backing them to make sure a good product is released. That's why they should release as much info as they can.

I thought building an asic rig was a huge multimillion dollar project, now are they are afraid of giving out secrets to their competitors?

Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product).  That has not changed.  Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin.

What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality.

Then guess what?  Wait.  Either by them releasing no product or them eventually releasing a product with specs, you win.  

No other hardware manufacturer releases the kinds of information this forum asks for until their product is ready.  You might get a leaked GPU shot from China but all chip vendors release general figures, and then a presentation upon when the product is final.

I understand the difference between cautious vs complacent, but again, don't like it?  Don't order.  Done.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the paranoia of wanting to know how everything is coming along when lots of funds are on the line.  But since any company for good reason can't tell you everything, you'll have to evaluate for yourself as to if BFL is a good investment for you.  Many here so far feel it is.  If you don't feel it fits your requirements for peace of mind, go somewhere else.

[fcmatt]

Bfl would not be allowed on kickstarter now days due to not having a working demo. Kickstarter got tired of this crap.

[PuertoLibre]

Well, I haven't put down any money for a Jalapeno specifically because of all these rumors. I don't necessarily distrust BFL, but all these rumors make me nervous. Especially the way anyone who represents BFL seems to treat it, with a mix of condescension and irritation. This is exactly the same way of talking I remember from high school when you would call out a braggart. Inaba says they've tried to assuage the doubters, but I've never seen a post-production picture of a  Jalapeno, at least, not to my knowledge, and the BFL labs page just seems a bit sterile. The drivers page lists off those other drivers, but they don't do anything. It seems shady when combined with all those other things that keep popping up. It just makes me nervous.

I too became nervous after reading through a number of threads. I understand where you are coming from.

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

+1 Sounds like a good idea.

If you have to read through the "BS" as stated, it would be hard for anyone looking to invest in hardware not to become ultimately nervous.

BFL is making ASICs, I imagine that is harder than they let on. There are bound to be delays and issues in any first gen product due to various conditions they (or any company for that matter) might face. I believe they have enough capital to make it happen. Surely they have the bulk of the orders as of Early October.

I have been looking at the discussion and most of the issues of doubt are either centered around the feasibility of the product being made or of general ignorance of where the product is at in terms of Assembly, ASIC yields, Power design issues AND final Prototype/evaluation models performance.

Consider it from the other side of the screen that Inaba and BFL_Engineer have all the knowledge over all of these processes but they can't say for one reason or another. Be it financial or because there might be any number of hiccups or design changes that might delay the final stages before shipment. IF we can live within the idea that there are strategic or financial advantages to not reveal this information to specific parties then it sounds reasonable that they wouldn't do this.

Then we should then ask them what they can tell us that would assist us in making a purchase or not.

-----------------------------

Inaba just told us there are 8 chips per module or board. We know he just stated that some models might only have 1.

So that begs the question, is he talking about the (formerly) 40Gh model or was he talking about the (formerly) 1Th model? Which has all 8? Which has just 1?

Is the 1 chip system he talks about the (formerly) 3.5 model? Or is it the 40?

------------------

If he is talking about a 3.5 having only 1 chip and the 8 belongs to a 40...then:

3.5Gh X 8 = 28Gh
4.0Gh X 8 = 32Gh
4.5Gh X 8 = 36Gh
5.0Gh X 8 = 40Gh
5.5Gh X 8 = 44Gh
6.0Gh X 8 = 48Gh
6.5Gh X 8 = 52Gh
7.0Gh X 8 = 56Gh
7.5Gh X 8 = 60Gh
8.0Gh X 8 = 64Gh

(Clockrate -> unknown)

Perhaps their ASICs are overclockable/underclockable? (I Don't know much of ASIC technology)

[squid]

Is the 1 chip system he talks about the (formerly) 3.5 model? Or is it the 40?

------------------

If he is talking about a 3.5 having only 1 chip and the 8 belongs to a 40...then:

3.5Gh X 8 = 28Gh
4.0Gh X 8 = 32Gh
4.5Gh X 8 = 36Gh
5.0Gh X 8 = 40Gh
5.5Gh X 8 = 44Gh
6.0Gh X 8 = 48Gh
6.5Gh X 8 = 52Gh
7.0Gh X 8 = 56Gh
7.5Gh X 8 = 60Gh
8.0Gh X 8 = 64Gh

(Clockrate -> unknown)

Perhaps their ASICs are overclockable/underclockable? (I Don't know much of ASIC technology)

So.. does a 40% increase in clock rate sound reasonable? Especially considering their constraints around temperature and power?

[Inaba]

The boards have always had an 8 chip capacity.  That has never changed from day one.

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

This is what I'm talking about.  I just posted in this very thread, a few posts up but you chose to ignore it:

There is no complete disclosure at this time.  There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure.  In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal.  The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk.  I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it.  When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure."  Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition?  Why?  Seriously, answer me that.  Why would we do that?  What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance?

[Kontakt]

There is no complete disclosure at this time.  There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure.  In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal.  The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk.  I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it.  When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure."  Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition?  Why?  Seriously, answer me that.  Why would we do that?  What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance?

I did read the thread, I did not just post without forethought.
I didn't mean full disclosure the way you do. I meant a thread that has everything you CAN or WILL release in one location, so potential customers like myself can see all of it in one place and have a grain of salt to take with the conspiracies. I just want to be able to see everything you have for us.

[Inaba]

We already have that: https://portal.butterflylabs.com

[Kontakt]

That page gives me an error/test page, some sort of 'Parallels' advert.

[squid]

The boards have always had an 8 chip capacity.  That has never changed from day one.

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

This is what I'm talking about.  I just posted in this very thread, a few posts up but you chose to ignore it:

There is no complete disclosure at this time.  There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure.  In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal.  The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk.  I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it.  When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure."  Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition?  Why?  Seriously, answer me that.  Why would we do that?  What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance?

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

[Sitarow]

That page gives me an error/test page, some sort of 'Parallels' advert.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php

that works.

[Kontakt]

That page gives me an error/test page, some sort of 'Parallels' advert.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php

that works.

It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either.

[Inaba]

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

Please provide citations or stop spreading yet more misinformation.  This is why the forums are useless.  You make statements that you have absolutely no basis in reality to make.

It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either.

And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone.  Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" ..  Whatever.  You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats.

[CoinHoarder]

I'm on your side Inaba.... there are a lot of unreasonable tin foil hats always on your case, and you guys don't deserve it.

That being said, please post pics of your new equipment when you get it, I have a $50 bet going.

Thanx bro!

[Kontakt]

It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either.

And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone.  Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" ..  Whatever.  You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats.

I was hoping for something I could just read, not a huge forum to sort through.

All the articles I see are the four on the front page, nothing I don't already know, or nothing that's relevant.

All I'm saying is this doesn't help at all.

I asked if you had a compiled post of everything you've released, and you linked me to a page that didn't work. Someone else linked me to that page, and when I said that didn't answer any of my questions, you acted like I was asking for you to prove P = NP.

What a lot of people are saying is that it's things like this that compound the feelings of mistrust people keep getting. I just want a full length article I can read that will assuage my fears. I've pretty much resigned myself to not buying a Jalapeno or otherwise until I see pics of one and post-release specs here on the forum. I just don't see anything that can override my concerns. I don't think I'm alone in this.

I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat, but I'm not getting in the white van and putting on a blindfold, either.

[fuxianhui888]

I'm on your side Inaba.... there are a lot of unreasonable tin foil hats always on your case, and you guys don't deserve it.

That being said, please post pics of your new equipment when you get it, I have a $50 bet going.

Thanx bro!

Yes,please post pictures!that's what we want to see right now

[PuertoLibre]

Is the 1 chip system he talks about the (formerly) 3.5 model? Or is it the 40?

------------------

If he is talking about a 3.5 having only 1 chip and the 8 belongs to a 40...then:

3.5Gh X 8 = 28Gh
4.0Gh X 8 = 32Gh
4.5Gh X 8 = 36Gh
5.0Gh X 8 = 40Gh
5.5Gh X 8 = 44Gh
6.0Gh X 8 = 48Gh
6.5Gh X 8 = 52Gh
7.0Gh X 8 = 56Gh
7.5Gh X 8 = 60Gh
8.0Gh X 8 = 64Gh

(Clockrate -> unknown)

Perhaps their ASICs are overclockable/underclockable? (I Don't know much of ASIC technology)

So.. does a 40% increase in clock rate sound reasonable? Especially considering their constraints around temperature and power?

I am still doing the numbers in Excel. I am no mathematician but using known or estimated values a single chip should consume...?4.5watts? at 4.5Gh/s at the new specs (estimated). I assume that one [Jalapeno] from BFL is designed to go head to head against the FPGA crowds. It seems they could have clocked it much higher but didn't. Perhaps the cooling system doesn't allow it?

[Syke]

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

Yes, you were noobs, but only because you didn't pay attention to the existing FPGA products that were on the market before you.

People just HATE the fact that we seem to be able to do things no one else can with our hardware (even now, our FPGA miners are the fastest, cheapest mining devices available.).

Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Rev-1-2-3.jpg

What a kludge.

[Unacceptable]

The boards have always had an 8 chip capacity.  That has never changed from day one.

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

This is what I'm talking about.  I just posted in this very thread, a few posts up but you chose to ignore it:

There is no complete disclosure at this time.  There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure.  In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal.  The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk.  I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it.  When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure."  Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition?  Why?  Seriously, answer me that.  Why would we do that?  What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance?

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

Ok,Lets see the "full disclosure" of ANY producer of ASIC's.PLEASE show me/us.

[Inaba]

Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

Dear sir, could you please point me to your wonderful FPGA mining product so that I may purchase it?  What's that?  You don't have one?  Your only talent is being an idiot?  Oh I'm sorry, here:

[Unacceptable]

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

Yes, you were noobs, but only because you didn't pay attention to the existing FPGA products that were on the market before you.

People just HATE the fact that we seem to be able to do things no one else can with our hardware (even now, our FPGA miners are the fastest, cheapest mining devices available.).

Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Rev-1-2-3.jpg

What a kludge.

If you don't like BFL's products.............DON'T BUY THEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now go troll somewhere else!!!!!!!!!!!

[squid]

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

Please provide citations or stop spreading yet more misinformation.  This is why the forums are useless.  You make statements that you have absolutely no basis in reality to make.

It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either.

And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone.  Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" ..  Whatever.  You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats.

You can see my earlier posts which are direct links to your website regard sources.

No basis in reality? You really want me to believe that you can BY MERELY adjusting the firmware (for a chip on a device that isn't even complete yet) are able to achieve a 40% increase in hash rate while maintaining the SAME power and temperature outputs? Really? who is out of touch with reality more here?


Showing pictures of equipment you don't yet have doesn't imply you have the fab set up operational? You would have just let everyone assume you have the equipment already and set up except someone called you out.

[Unacceptable]

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

Please provide citations or stop spreading yet more misinformation.  This is why the forums are useless.  You make statements that you have absolutely no basis in reality to make.

It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either.

And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone.  Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" ..  Whatever.  You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats.

You can see my earlier posts which are direct links to your website regard sources.

No basis in reality? You really want me to believe that you can BY MERELY adjusting the firmware (for a chip on a device that isn't even complete yet) are able to achieve a 40% increase in hash rate while maintaining the SAME power and temperature outputs? Really? who is out of touch with reality more here?


Showing pictures of equipment you don't yet have doesn't imply you have the fab set up operational? You would have just let everyone assume you have the equipment already and set up except someone called you out.

Have you seen Cablepairs place of buisness/pics of products or ngzhang's or Deepbits or ANYONE else's  

Thought so,now :

[Kontakt]

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

[squid]

Have you seen Cablepairs place of buisness/pics of products or ngzhang's or Deepbits or ANYONE else's  

Thought so,now :

Can't find a fault in my reasoning so you result to insults. Makes sense.

And I don't have anything to call cablepair/ngzhang/deepbit out because they don't employ the same sneaky tactics as BFL does. The hint is if you are generally honest and what you say makes sense people won't call you out.

[Unacceptable]

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

Yes "they" do,so does BFL,even a pic of one thier products (may change but a pic nonetheless).No one else has pic yet of any product.

Everyone is only letting enough info out,so as not to give the competition an advantage,is that so hard to understand (aimed at squid).

Bitminter is a mining pool.Heck,Deepbit's Tycho responds quickly & is very clear too,same for Slush's pool & EMC 

[Unacceptable]

Have you seen Cablepairs place of buisness/pics of products or ngzhang's or Deepbits or ANYONE else's  

Thought so,now :

Can't find a fault in my reasoning so you result to insults. Makes sense.

And I don't have anything to call cablepair/ngzhang/deepbit out because they don't employ the same sneaky tactics as BFL does. The hint is if you are generally honest and what you say makes sense people won't call you out.

Aww did I insult you ?? I'm sorry 

You have no reasoning dude,that's the point.............

[Kontakt]

I know I say this at the risk of sounding butthurt, but Inaba just seems short tempered and quick to make rude comments. In anyone trying to convince me that they're legitimate, this makes me less trustful than ever. I understand that you guys are dealing with a truly huge mass of rumors about your product, but I just wanted to read up so I can form an educated opinion. The problem is that there seems to be almost no information whatsoever about your product or anything relating to it that I can use to form an opinion. There isn't much information from any of the other ASIC-offering companies, but they don't have tons of rumors flying about them, either. I was interested in a Jalapeno, because I could afford one, but all this vitriol and conspiracy business has really put me off. I don't know if I can trust BFL because of what I've seen here. I previously had no concerns at all, but Inaba always seems evasive or abusive, rather than explaining, or explaining why he cannot explain. All I want is a thread from BFL's point of view on the whole topic, but I'm not getting anything. Everything I've been linked to has been exceedingly useless. It makes me feel like I'm being sent on a wild goose chase, and then told to shut up because I'm in the same thread as more extreme people.

[Bogart]

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

Yes "they" do,so does BFL,even a pic of one thier products (may change but a pic nonetheless).No one else has pic yet of any product.

What pic is this?  You mean the rendering?

Pics of FPGA products don't count.

[Unacceptable]

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

Yes "they" do,so does BFL,even a pic of one thier products (may change but a pic nonetheless).No one else has pic yet of any product.

What pic is this?  You mean the rendering?

Pics of FPGA products don't count.

Yes a rendering of the Jalapeno,Inaba say's its pretty close at this moment.But who knows,it could change.

[Kontakt]

Renderings are nice, but it's only a rendering. Making a model like that in solidworks takes about 2  minutes. I haven't really seen Inaba comment on the Jalapeno's status at all, anywhere on the forum. Maybe I've been in all the wrong threads? They all have titles like 'BFL HUGE SCAM' and 'OMGWTFBBQ BFL', but that's all there is. No balance to this discussion at all.

[PuertoLibre]

I know I say this at the risk of sounding butthurt, but Inaba just seems short tempered and quick to make rude comments. In anyone trying to convince me that they're legitimate, this makes me less trustful than ever. I understand that you guys are dealing with a truly huge mass of rumors about your product, but I just wanted to read up so I can form an educated opinion. The problem is that there seems to be almost no information whatsoever about your product or anything relating to it that I can use to form an opinion. There isn't much information from any of the other ASIC-offering companies, but they don't have tons of rumors flying about them, either. I was interested in a Jalapeno, because I could afford one, but all this vitriol and conspiracy business has really put me off. I don't know if I can trust BFL because of what I've seen here. I previously had no concerns at all, but Inaba always seems evasive or abusive, rather than explaining, or explaining why he cannot explain. All I want is a thread from BFL's point of view on the whole topic, but I'm not getting anything. Everything I've been linked to has been exceedingly useless. It makes me feel like I'm being sent on a wild goose chase, and then told to shut up because I'm in the same thread as more extreme people.

+1

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

Yes "they" do,so does BFL,even a pic of one thier products (may change but a pic nonetheless).No one else has pic yet of any product.

What pic is this?  You mean the rendering?

Pics of FPGA products don't count.

Yes a rendering of the Jalapeno,Inaba say's its pretty close at this moment.But who knows,it could change.

Seems about right for something that should roughly (speculation) consume only 4.5watts of power. The rendering doesn't give any hints that it is actively cooled. Perhaps this is why they could not "bump" the chip to the same degree as the 60Gh/s system.

[Unacceptable]

I know I say this at the risk of sounding butthurt, but Inaba just seems short tempered and quick to make rude comments. In anyone trying to convince me that they're legitimate, this makes me less trustful than ever. I understand that you guys are dealing with a truly huge mass of rumors about your product, but I just wanted to read up so I can form an educated opinion. The problem is that there seems to be almost no information whatsoever about your product or anything relating to it that I can use to form an opinion. There isn't much information from any of the other ASIC-offering companies, but they don't have tons of rumors flying about them, either. I was interested in a Jalapeno, because I could afford one, but all this vitriol and conspiracy business has really put me off. I don't know if I can trust BFL because of what I've seen here. I previously had no concerns at all, but Inaba always seems evasive or abusive, rather than explaining, or explaining why he cannot explain. All I want is a thread from BFL's point of view on the whole topic, but I'm not getting anything. Everything I've been linked to has been exceedingly useless. It makes me feel like I'm being sent on a wild goose chase, and then told to shut up because I'm in the same thread as more extreme people.

Look at the guys Inaba/BFL_Josh is arguing with,the SAME ONE'S over & over & over again.I get annoyed myself.He's actually being polite  

I have a BFL FPGA Single,I have been very happy with it,other than the 72F enviroment thing.But this has been addressed & will not be a problem with the ASIC I've been told.

Check this thread out : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77796.0

No one has released anything more that expected hashrates & possible power consumption & a possible delivery date...................to keep an advantage over the competition.

I'm assuming you don't do any mining or ever have,therefore nothing to use as a baseline for a decission.

You'll have to make up your own mind,I nor anyone else can do that for you,sorry.

Rumors are just that RUMORS  

[Unacceptable]

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

Yes "they" do,so does BFL,even a pic of one thier products (may change but a pic nonetheless).No one else has pic yet of any product.

What pic is this?  You mean the rendering?

Pics of FPGA products don't count.

Yes a rendering of the Jalapeno,Inaba say's its pretty close at this moment.But who knows,it could change.

Seems about right for something that should roughly (speculation) consume only 4.5watts of power. The rendering doesn't give any hints that it is actively cooled. Perhaps this is why they could not "bump" the chip to the same degree as the 60Gh/s system.

No fan,as of now or when the rendering was released,it is passively cooled.

[Kontakt]

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

[Bogart]

Found this old photo of their "Production line" for the FPGA-based Mini Rigs:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

I wish I could find the one again of the old QA lady with the soldering iron.

Edit: Also some customer photos here of the inside of an assembled one: http://imgur.com/a/Uanjr

[bustaballs]

And even Avalon have acknowledged that BFL's specs are very possible and that they see them as a serious competitor.

Before BFL's competition came along, the tin foil hat guys claimed that such specs are impossible and that the whole thing is a scam. Now they either find new reasons or I guess they assume that all of the competition and even forum moderators and other major people in the bitcoin community are all in the conspiracy together. Let's ignore the fact that these people have been accepting bank wires and paypal payments and that their full names have been disclosed to the public.

Being skeptical is one thing. Maybe they aren't as cool and collected as they seem. Maybe they are far behind schedule and won't ship the products until much later. Some people have some legitimate questions that I'm sure BFL will soon answer. But attacking them over every tiny little thing and accusing them of being major scammers with ZERO evidence and despite the fact that they have already proven themselves to be a legitimate business shipping real products... I just can't wrap my head around how people can be this stupid.

This same shit happened over at Open Pandora. People accused them of being scammers. People said their product would never ship. Yet thousands of people now own and love Pandoras. This same shit happened with Pier Solar. Oh, it's vaporware. They are just going to run with the money. But I now have a factory sealed copy of Pier Solar sitting on my shelf. This same shit happens everywhere. Do people get scammed with bitcoins? Sure. But the successful scammers always do it in a very smart way where they won't get caught. How on earth would BFL get away with this? Someone should make a documentary about this shit all Loose Change style. I'd watch it and eat popcorn while my shiny new BFL product is mining me some bitcoins.

[PuertoLibre]

Found this old photo of their "Production line" for the FPGA-based Mini Rigs:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

I wish I could find the one again of the old QA lady with the soldering iron.

Edit: Also some customer photos here of the inside of an assembled one: http://imgur.com/a/Uanjr

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KHMmbnQ_Y

Seems the idea that BFL doesn't have any infrastructure is not based on anything real.

[squid]

And even Avalon have acknowledged that BFL's specs are very possible and that they see them as a serious competitor.

Before BFL's competition came along, the tin foil hat guys claimed that such specs are impossible and that the whole thing is a scam. Now they either find new reasons or I guess they assume that all of the competition and even forum moderators and other major people in the bitcoin community are all in the conspiracy together. Let's ignore the fact that these people have been accepting bank wires and paypal payments and that their full names have been disclosed to the public.

Being skeptical is one thing. Maybe they aren't as cool and collected as they seem. Maybe they are far behind schedule and won't ship the products until much later. Some people have some legitimate questions that I'm sure BFL will soon answer. But attacking them over every tiny little thing and accusing them of being major scammers with ZERO evidence and despite the fact that they have already proven themselves to be a legitimate business shipping real products... I just can't wrap my head around how people can be this stupid.

This same shit happened over at Open Pandora. People accused them of being scammers. People said their product would never ship. Yet thousands of people now own and love Pandoras. This same shit happened with Pier Solar. Oh, it's vaporware. They are just going to run with the money. But I now have a factory sealed copy of Pier Solar sitting on my shelf. This same shit happens everywhere. Do people get scammed with bitcoins? Sure. But the successful scammers always do it in a very smart way where they won't get caught. How on earth would BFL get away with this? Someone should make a documentary about this shit all Loose Change style. I'd watch it and eat popcorn while my shiny new BFL product is mining me some bitcoins.

I have no doubt BFL will have a real product eventually. I just don't like the way the go about releasing information in a somewhat deceitful way. They need a serious lesson in public relations since that is the source of their bad reputation.

Luckily the community has been calling them out and being very vocal (asic main-net testing, ebay pictures) in order to ensure their transparency... but that community shouldn't have to do that, BFL should be up front about it from the getgo.

[squid]

Found this old photo of their "Production line" for the FPGA-based Mini Rigs:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

I wish I could find the one again of the old QA lady with the soldering iron.

Edit: Also some customer photos here of the inside of an assembled one: http://imgur.com/a/Uanjr

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KHMmbnQ_Y

Seems the idea that BFL doesn't have any infrastructure is not based on anything real.

How does that prove anything? BFL hasn't made anything in house yet, they just put the pieces together. Once their equipment is set up it will be the first time they can do in house board fab.

[PuertoLibre]

And even Avalon have acknowledged that BFL's specs are very possible and that they see them as a serious competitor.

[Speculation]

I'd bet the only thing the Avalon company is happy about is that BFL just ate through some headroom in both Heat and Power consumption. Hopefully BFL overspec'ed their power and heat dissipation system to handle the unexpected increase. If they [Avalon] wait until BFL is done with the recent upgrades and announce some higher specs themselves....

That's got to cost BFL money and time with each upgrade...

[bustaballs]

Maybe that'll happen. But also remember that those Avalon units aren't all going to be $1300. The next ones will be $2000 if I remember correctly.

[Bogart]

Found this old photo of their "Production line" for the FPGA-based Mini Rigs:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

I wish I could find the one again of the old QA lady with the soldering iron.

Edit: Also some customer photos here of the inside of an assembled one: http://imgur.com/a/Uanjr

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KHMmbnQ_Y

Seems the idea that BFL doesn't have any infrastructure is not based on anything real.

The only infrastructure shown in the content linked above would appear to be a couple guys assembling products on a table along with their brown-bag lunch, with some Nexel shelves in the background full of parts.  Not even so much as an ESD bracelet visible.

Certainly nothing like the facilities pictured in the link in the OP, which claims "These units are currently being installed in our new facility."  Then a couple days later, when called out on the origin of the photos, states "they're in transit".

[PuertoLibre]

Found this old photo of their "Production line" for the FPGA-based Mini Rigs:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

I wish I could find the one again of the old QA lady with the soldering iron.

Edit: Also some customer photos here of the inside of an assembled one: http://imgur.com/a/Uanjr

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KHMmbnQ_Y

Seems the idea that BFL doesn't have any infrastructure is not based on anything real.

How does that prove anything? BFL hasn't made anything in house yet, they just put the pieces together. Once their equipment is set up it will be the first time they can do in house board fab.

There is that risk as you say. They can still make tons of mistakes or find that hardware problems crop up during final assembly. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.

To me (at least IMO) they seem to have some kind of past experience in shipping equipment that people order. There was an idea being foisted on the forums that they weren't capable of such. So this is (for me at least) a notch in the right direction.

Like you say, they may eventually deliver a working ASIC machine just like any of the other 5 (4?) competitors. It is a major roll of the dice on who will get through the fabrication process without any costly mistakes. Like the other member I am looking for mining equipment and the truth behind the rumors.

I don't care if the mining equipment has BFL, Avalon or BASIC logos. I just don't want to lose money like anyone else.

Right now there are tons of FUD floating around and some of it seems baseless. The Ebay thing was one of the things that made me pause and reconsider. Do I doubt they purchased the equipment? Well, time will tell when they gloat about how many devices they can put together in-house or at their local <insert building type here>.

If they don't gloat about their expensive purchase when/if it arrives, then I am sure more than *I* would be worried. Personally I would be more worried that they actually use it correctly than anything else. Perhaps you can put in a request to have Inaba pose for the camera? hehe

[PuertoLibre]

The only infrastructure shown in the content linked above would appear to be a couple guys assembling products on a table along with their brown-bag lunch, with some Nexel shelves in the background full of parts.  Not even so much as an ESD bracelet visible.

Certainly nothing like the facilities pictured in the link in the OP, which claims "These units are currently being installed in our new facility."  Then a couple days later, when called out on the origin of the photos, states "they're in transit".

Well, you are free to question and berate them in my stead. Someone has to do it.

I and others will just simply post what we find and folks can decide whether the money is worth the risk or not.

[squid]

There is that risk as you say. They can still make tons of mistakes or find that hardware problems crop up during final assembly. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.

To me (at least IMO) they seem to have some kind of past experience in shipping equipment that people order. There was an idea being foisted on the forums that they weren't capable of such. So this is (for me at least) a notch in the right direction.

Like you say, they may eventually deliver a working ASIC machine just like any of the other 5 (4?) competitors. It is a major roll of the dice on who will get through the fabrication process without any costly mistakes. Like the other member I am looking for mining equipment and the truth behind the rumors.

I don't care if the mining equipment has BFL, Avalon or BASIC logos. I just don't want to lose money like anyone else.

Right now there are tons of FUD floating around and some of it seems baseless. The Ebay thing was one of the things that made me pause and reconsider. Do I doubt they purchased the equipment? Well, time will tell when they gloat about how many devices they can put together in-house or at their local <insert building type here>.

If they don't gloat about their expensive purchase when/if it arrives, then I am sure more than *I* would be worried. Personally I would be more worried that they actually use it correctly than anything else. Perhaps you can put in a request to have Inaba pose for the camera? hehe

I know BFL will eventually deliver. They have the most funds and thus are most likely to succeed because they can swallow mistakes with greater ease. More than likely BFL will also have the lowest power consumption as well (assuming they use their large amount of funding to secure more competitive transistor size, but this of course we won't know until devices are releases since the only group who has released transistor gate size is avalon at 110 or 130 nm).

My biggest concern about BFL and why their rep keeps sinking is because they keep telling half truths to imply they are farther along in their process than they are by using shady statements that have been outlined before.

For ASICs what will matter is power and who delivers first hence why everyone is so tight lipped. Once the NRE costs are recovered the profits for these devices will be significant and we will probably see competition for next gen asics that use smaller transistor size and thus greater energy efficiency.

[Unacceptable]

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

I stand corrected,my bad  

If you still can't make up your mind,then wait until everyone's ASIC's are released & then decide.

In the mean time,me & countless others will be making BTC & driving up the difficulty  

BTW,I've been unemployed/self employed for 3 years now & see no job oppurtunities in the near future,so this to me has been a great chance to get in on something thats going to be big someday soon & should make me a decent income along with my daily work.

I started mining in June of 2011 with 2-6950's,now have those & 2-6970's (added in aug 2011) & 1-7970 (added in aug 2012) & 1 BFL FPGA Single (added in march 2012)=3gh/s.

I'm rolling my earned BTC into ASIC's over & over,I hope to have 200gh+ by feb 2013,so I'm confident in BFL  

If you listen to rumors,then you'll never move ahead.

Best of luck in your studies at college & hope you have success in your chosen field  

[PuertoLibre]

There is a mystery about how BFL was able to turn a firmware upgrade into extra performance.

[Outrageous Speculation]

I was thinking until recently that they had simply overclocked the ASIC unit(s) on their devices.

Though now I am starting to wonder if they might have employed a trick found in the semiconductor industry. One of those tricks is turning off features like extra cores at the firmware level of the chip. In essence turning off extra processors [on the die level] via firmware.

I have no actual clue how they increased their performance [without increasing the power demand significantly] beyond overclocking the chip OR simply "turning on" various areas of the chip to increase performance. It would be of a great foresight if they intended to upgrade their devices remotely simply by selling the firmware at a future date.

It keeps churning in my mind lately that if they designed the ASIC to use several "sub-processors" in one chip package but kept most of it turned "off/disabled."..that would be an incredibly profitable strategy.

You could then upgrade a customers Mining device via email or a dongle without ever having to ship an extra one to the customer. [Is that the reason for a Lifetime Warranty??] People are wondering about the VRM and the excessive number of them.

If my computer knowledge doesn't fail me, one of the reasons server motherboards have more VRM's [Voltage Regulation Modules] and caps [Capacitors] is because they need to handle more power across various cores.

The general assumption in this community _seems to be_ that BFL is only using 1 core per die/socket. Considering an ASIC is probably very tiny and much simpler when compared to a modern processor....it makes sense to design a chip from the onset with multiple sub-cores.

Perhaps this explains why the performance went up, but the power rating remained relatively stable. We would be able to figure this out if we knew the TDP [or equivalent] of the old units at 40Ghs vs the "upgraded ones at 60Gh/s.

Anyway, just idle speculation....

[Unacceptable]

Well take the Single for example,upon release it was said to give 832mh/s.Then came the firmware updates that allowed it to hash up to 896mh/s.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/drivers/

Maybe they intended to do the same thing with the ASIC's 

[PuertoLibre]

Well take the Single for example,upon release it was said to give 832mh/s.Then came the firmware updates that allowed it to hash up to 896mh/s.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/drivers/

Maybe they intended to do the same thing with the ASIC's  

Hmm, those are the FPGA's right?

FPGA are usually ~re-programmable~ processors than General Purpose CPU's. It might be a case of simply optimizing the firmware?

It would be nice to hear from BFL if this was the case. Though if we actually "hit the nail on the head"....would they have any incentive to actually admit to it? Probably not!  

[Unacceptable]

Personally,I don't believe in conspiracy theories,I know I'll get my units & they will work as described.

So it makes no matter to me what they admit too in regard to bumping up the hashrates 

[PuertoLibre]

If they are using this method then it would actually boost their profits [What they care about] and their devices profitability/reliability [what we care about].

If they implemented this if you had a sudden fritz, they could send you a file to diagnose the issue. After they identified a fault they would just email a firmware to disable one core and turn on another in the same chip and presto, you'd be back to mining.

Or

Sell you a firmware to <cough> "upgrade" what you already have to a different performance level. [40gh/s to 60Gh/s]

If true...how much more unicorn blood do they have hidden inside each rig? [Again, just wild speculation...]

[Syke]

Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

Dear sir, could you please point me to your wonderful FPGA mining product so that I may purchase it?  What's that? You don't have one?  Your only talent is being an idiot?  Oh I'm sorry, here:

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

[bitmar]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

[makomk]

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

Oooookay... I know that fpgaminer was publicly telling people to increase the toggle rate setting in PowerPlay in order to get accurate power estimates several months before you announced your product, because I was one of the people who was using it at the time:

It isn't on the C4-115 chip, but for the tiny C4-22 it might be. Check with PowerPlay. Make sure no heatsink and no fan is selected, and the toggle rate is ~65%. See what it says the JT is.

As I recall, he had actual power consumption measurements on actual hardware back then too.

[DobZombie]

I can't wait for my BFL SC to turn up.  

All this crap will end and I'll BE ULTRA FUCKING RICH.

Optimism and positive thinking has done me WAY more good (and earned me WAY more $$) than all the bullshit I keep reading.

I'm an optimistic prick, and nothing ever gonna change it



Also, I'm not getting paid for my signature

[CoinHoarder]

I can't wait for my BFL SC to turn up.  

Me either. I've admittedly been hard on BFL throughout the pre-order process, but things have gotten out of control and I actually feel bad for BFL.

No matter what they say or do, someone always has some theory as to how whatever they say means they are scamming us.

November cannot get here quick enough, then all of the naysayers can eat their socks.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Or if is the seller. Note that the eBayer has never received a feedback for selling anything. All the past feedbacks for him/her as a buyer. Last feedback from a year ago.

~Bruno~

[Kaliecious]

Damn, I could have freighted it BFL cheaper then what its costing them.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Hey, Josh. If BFL did buy that oven from that eBayer, I would have done due diligence of mynhung2006 prior to making said purchase.

First red flag would have been his lack of activity since 2011 via (feedbacks).

No feedback as a seller--only buyer.

But the biggest red flag on this eBayer is that he lied about whom he's seller the equipment for.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-Manual-Stencil-Printer-STP-350-/320985487948?nma=true&si=mAWggEYKpH4g2H7aZLAFESK6gGA%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowAllQuestions&iid=320985487948&requested=mynhung2006&redirect=0&frm=2047675&ShowASQAlways=1&ssPageName=PageAskSellerQuestion_VI

Q:    i got for this item UPS quote $56 for CA 92618. It is not clear from listing, is packaging/handling extra, or $56 is S/H total? thanks.   Sep-21-12
A:    Dear Itest10, I am sorry for the unclear shipping cost, I am just helping a friend liquidating her manufacturing equipments and do not have experience with selling nor shipping. The packaging/handling is just $16.00 dollars more, the cost is for the thick box and packing bubble wraps. Thank you for your interest.

Yet he purchased a SMT Convection Oven a year ago.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=engtechcorp&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&interval=0&mPg=4&page=2

Excellent seller, very helpful and kind hearted, highly recommend!!!!   Buyer: mynhung2006 ( 93)     Sep-06-11 12:59
    SMT Convection Oven (#170688982887)   US $5,000.00

Again, I'm not sure if BFL purchased this oven and has already taken delivery, but that sure would be ironic if BFL got scammed by an eBayer using pre-ordered funds.

~Bruno~

[Bogart]

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

[Kontakt]

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

You really think one of those could take off a finger? XD
I end up clipping my finger in one of those all the time when I'm doing maintenance on a running box. It just stings a bit. Rarely bruises and never breaks the skin. A burn is more a risk than the fan!

[neotrino]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

[Bogart]

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

You really think one of those could take off a finger? XD
I end up clipping my finger in one of those all the time when I'm doing maintenance on a running box. It just stings a bit. Rarely bruises and never breaks the skin. A burn is more a risk than the fan!

Ya I dunno, depends how powerful it is I suppose, and how tough the finger is.

I have some 120mm 200cfm fans that run on 48V (still plastic blades), and it drew blood when I bumped a finger into one.

If you look at the pic and the shape of the blades, you will see that the exposed side is in fact the intake side, which will do a lot more damage if a finger gets caught in it than the exhaust side would.

[bitmar]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

Specification of chips is well known in the design phase. Well known is  number of logic gates and technological process - it is easy to calculate the maximum operating frequency at  maximum safe temperature. Calculation error may amount to a few % , not 50% !!!
This is not FPGA  so you can just buy ASIC in a store and then check  performance. ASICs are built from scratch. If I'm wrong correct me.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

eBay seller mynhung2006 purchased a lot of things last year that BFL could possibly use in their labs. Since he's having a fire sale, I would suggest re-calling the seller to see if the following item he purchased is next up on the auction block.



http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=mynhung2006&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers

Great seller, shrink warpped unit and help load it for free, will buy from again   Seller: moonray ( 2927)     May-17-11 18:29
    -- (#260780101626)

I ain't got the foggiest idea why the eBay seller stated that he's selling these items for some lady, when in fact he purchased what he's selling.

~Bruno~

[neotrino]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

Specification of chips is well known in the design phase. Well known is  number of logic gates and technological process - it is easy to calculate the maximum operating frequency at  maximum safe temperature. Calculation error may amount to a few % , not 50% !!!
This is not FPGA  so you can just buy ASIC in a store and then check  performance. ASICs are built from scratch. If I'm wrong correct me.

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

[squid]

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology.

[bitmar]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

Specification of chips is well known in the design phase. Well known is  number of logic gates and technological process - it is easy to calculate the maximum operating frequency at  maximum safe temperature. Calculation error may amount to a few % , not 50% !!!
This is not FPGA  so you can just buy ASIC in a store and then check  performance. ASICs are built from scratch. If I'm wrong correct me.

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

so, if they have not yet ready chips, how these (5Gh/chip) calculations come from? 40-28nm  is impossible for such a small company (and very expensive). Is it possible that mistake in the calculation of the 50% not even having chips? I do not understand. Larger companies are able to evaluate exactly the power of designed chips.

[neotrino]

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology.

Why you say that is impossible? Nowadays practically all semiconductor manufacturing plants have technology to manufacturer chips with 28nm.

Of course they are not building the chips (that's just impossible) they are outsourcing the manufacturing process to companies like TSMC

For example Altera (a very well-know FPGA manufacturer) offer a service that allows you to copy your design from an Altera FPGA to an ASIC with 28nm or 40nm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altera#ASICs

http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.html

[squid]

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology.

Why you say that is impossible? Nowadays practically all semiconductor manufacturing plants have technology to manufacturer chips with 28nm.

Of course they are not building the chips (that's just impossible) they are outsourcing the manufacturing process to companies like TSMC

For example Altera (a very well-know FPGA manufacturer) offer a service that allows you to copy your design from an Altera FPGA to an ASIC with 28nm or 40nm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altera#ASICs

http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.html

If NRE is on the order of >$100,000 USD for 130 nm ASICs, how can you expect BFL to afford 28/40nm type stuff that only the largest of companies can afford?

[neotrino]

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology.

Why you say that is impossible? Nowadays practically all semiconductor manufacturing plants have technology to manufacturer chips with 28nm.

Of course they are not building the chips (that's just impossible) they are outsourcing the manufacturing process to companies like TSMC

For example Altera (a very well-know FPGA manufacturer) offer a service that allows you to copy your design from an Altera FPGA to an ASIC with 28nm or 40nm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altera#ASICs

http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.html

If NRE is on the order of >$100,000 USD for 130 nm ASICs, how can you expect BFL to afford 28/40nm type stuff that only the largest of companies can afford?

I don't know how much money BFL was able to raise, but 1M sounds feasible to me.

Of course I am only speculating, I don't know about real numbers.

Probably some of you will find this page useful http://opencores.org/forum,OpenRISC%20-%20ASIC%20Funding,0,4358 where OpenRISC talks about minimum orders for different ASIC manufacturing process.


The point of the discussion was about how they managed to bump the original specifications up to a 50% more while keeping the original cost.

And, perhaps is because of this, they originally targeted one manufacturing process of XXXnm, and they finally raised more money than expected so they were able to go for YYYnm process which allowed them to boost the performance and lower the power consumption.

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

Regards

[Bogart]

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

I want the one with the smaller Enn Emms¹.

[neotrino]

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

I want the one with the smaller Enn Emms¹.

Hoping they will answer:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm

[PuertoLibre]

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

I want the one with the smaller Enn Emms¹.

Hoping they will answer:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm

You should also ask how many hashing units they have per chip. As well as....if any are disabled (or were disabled) due to firmware.

[RHA]

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

Hoping they will answer:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm

I bet they won't reveal this yet. I wouldn't reveal. Near all buyers don't care and the competitors could have an edge.

[franky1]

instead of highlighting the errors and be rewarded with inaba replies of tin foil hat troll, instead of actual answers. i will not mention the errors already mentioned, but instead just ask some simple questions.

1. does BFL have a finished ASIC prototype that they are testing right now ready to mass/batch produce once quality control checks are done

2. has BFL already done part of question one and already batch producing finalised ASICS.

3. if yes to question 2 are any of them currently going through a burn in process either solo mining or pool mining. and if so which?

4. does BFL have any images of CURRENT workshop equipment that are not third party sources (ebay/google images)

[bitmar]

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

Hoping they will answer:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm

I bet they won't reveal this yet. I wouldn't reveal. Near all buyers don't care and the competitors could have an edge.

you're right, we will not know.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm
"BFL_Josh:
We will be releasing that information within the next few weeks. "

My suspicion growing. Business secret.... This is an easy way to fool people. But is also reasonable. whatever they should authenticate their actions for their own good. Or they gathered enough money to not care.... or they believe people are so naive...and as history shows they are right.

[yrtrnc]

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

[Bogart]

To contrast, ASICMINER has already stated that they will be using a 130nm process, and ngzhang/Avalon stated from the outset that 130nm or 110nm will be used.  I don't think cablepair/bASIC has disclosed their process size.

[Bogart]

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

What's not to understand?  This machine just performs one part of the process.  The parts that go into the machine still have to come from somewhere, and there is a lot more processing involved besides just running the units through the reflow oven.

It's not like the replicators on Star Trek where they just say "make me 9,000 BitForce SC products" and it fabricates them out of thin air.

[fcmatt]

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

A small business has to manage their pennies properly or fail. Buying on ebay to save money is reasonable and smart if it wirks out.

[Zeek_W]

instead of highlighting the errors and be rewarded with inaba replies of tin foil hat troll, instead of actual answers. i will not mention the errors already mentioned, but instead just ask some simple questions.

1. does BFL have a finished ASIC prototype that they are testing right now ready to mass/batch produce once quality control checks are done

2. has BFL already done part of question one and already batch producing finalised ASICS.

3. if yes to question 2 are any of them currently going through a burn in process either solo mining or pool mining. and if so which?

4. does BFL have any images of CURRENT workshop equipment that are not third party sources (ebay/google images)

Very valid questions!

[squeept]

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

What does this have to do with ANYTHING?

I've used a $100 multimeter that my dad gave to me to repair hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of electronics. Therefore, I am doing something wrong?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

What's not to understand?  This machine just performs one part of the process.  The parts that go into the machine still have to come from somewhere, and there is a lot more processing involved besides just running the units through the reflow oven.

It's not like the replicators on Star Trek where they just say "make me 9,000 BitForce SC products" and it fabricates them out of thin air.

And don't forget, each of those 9,000 units will endure a minimum 12 hour endurance test prior to shipping. Somebody else can do the math on how many bitcoins can be mined in 4,500+ hours with that many BitForce SC.

@Energizer: We do test all the units for a minimum of 12 hours prior to shipping. This is our endurance test
that is done in a harsh environment to make sure the unit is stable and will not encounter any problem in its
lifetime.

Regards,

~Bruno~

[Phinnaeus Gage]

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

What's not to understand?  This machine just performs one part of the process.  The parts that go into the machine still have to come from somewhere, and there is a lot more processing involved besides just running the units through the reflow oven.

It's not like the replicators on Star Trek where they just say "make me 9,000 BitForce SC products" and it fabricates them out of thin air.

And don't forget, each of those 9,000 units will endure a minimum 12 hour endurance test prior to shipping. Somebody else can do the math on how many bitcoins can be mined in 4,500+ hours with that many BitForce SC.

@Energizer: We do test all the units for a minimum of 12 hours prior to shipping. This is our endurance test
that is done in a harsh environment to make sure the unit is stable and will not encounter any problem in its
lifetime.

Regards,

~Bruno~

Exactly 8. All kidding aside, BFL has stated that all testing will take place on "testnet in a box".

I ain't got a clue as to what a "testnet in a box" is, but I guess it's akin to loading and unloading a brand new car onto and off a hauler using a forklift, thereby keeping the odometer at 0.

[Unacceptable]

BFLcoin is coming for testing the ASIC's

& you can trade'em in for cool stuff like,T-shirts,mugs,pens,hats,coffee warmers 

 

[Bogart]

BFLcoin is coming for testing the ASIC's

& you can trade'em in for cool stuff like,T-shirts,mugs,pens,hats,coffee warmers 

http://www.cafepress.com/butterflylabs

I think I've seen that mug somewhere.

[bitmar]

instead of highlighting the errors and be rewarded with inaba replies of tin foil hat troll, instead of actual answers. i will not mention the errors already mentioned, but instead just ask some simple questions.

1. does BFL have a finished ASIC prototype that they are testing right now ready to mass/batch produce once quality control checks are done

2. has BFL already done part of question one and already batch producing finalised ASICS.

3. if yes to question 2 are any of them currently going through a burn in process either solo mining or pool mining. and if so which?

4. does BFL have any images of CURRENT workshop equipment that are not third party sources (ebay/google images)

1,2,3: Good questions, but I am afraid will without answer.

Answer to the fourth question is: no

[crazyates]

I usually frequent these forums pretty much daily, but I take a weekend off, and I come back to see 6 pages of bickering. We've already seen this thread dozens of times over:

#1 - BFL is a SCAM!
#2 - BFL is a legit business!
#1 - It's a Long-Con!
#2 - Arn't you missing your Tin Hat?
#1 - Let me guess, you're also an iTard?
#2 - Calling me names won't get you anywhere, ass!
#1 - I can't believe you willingly gave your Bitcoins to a scammer!
#2 - I can't believe you don't believe in the future of Bitcoin!

I think Inaba is an ass, but I don't think he's a dishonest one. Either way, people have made it known where they stand, and neither side wants to hear from the other. I say the only thing BFL can do to REALLY defend themselves from all the haters is to deliver a friggin product, but that won't happen for another 2 months or so. 8 more weeks of the same conversation over and over? /sigh

[yrtrnc]

Star trek lol

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this?

What's not to understand?  This machine just performs one part of the process.  The parts that go into the machine still have to come from somewhere, and there is a lot more processing involved besides just running the units through the reflow oven.

It's not like the replicators on Star Trek where they just say "make me 9,000 BitForce SC products" and it fabricates them out of thin air.

[yrtrnc]

Well they also claim that they can produce 300 every 8 hours, so does that mean, if we assume there are 5000 preorders, they can produce them if they worked 5.5 days straight??? So many Asics in such short time?

Can you imagine if the Chinese get hold of one and manage to copy it! We'll have millions of Asics everywhere..

[Unacceptable]

Well they also claim that they can produce 300 every 8 hours, so does that mean, if we assume there are 5000 preorders, they can produce them if they worked 5.5 days straight??? So many Asics in such short time?

Can you imagine if the Chinese get hold of one and manage to copy it! We'll have millions of Asics everywhere..

Uh,ngzhang is working from China I believe 

[scrybe]

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

Well, if you are looking for 100% you might want to look for another hobby. A major reason that BTC is exciting to many folks is that it is still in a state of growth, and everyone at this point can be considered an innovator or early adopter as far as the overall developing economy is concerned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle) Because of this early stage, the rules, regulations, and limits of what you can do with BTC are very loose and ill-defined, which in turn leads to:

OPPORTUNITY!

100% certainty is going to exist only in mature, and often ossified, systems that are already "loaded" in favor of the incumbents in the market (see: Regulatory Capture) and the margins are thin.

BitCoin offers far lower certainty, but you have huge opportunities like a potential future with $100 or $1000 value, which helps make up for the chance that I might to lose the whole thing.

Something else you can see played out here is the "Hype Cycle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle) with an overall BitCoin trough starting in preparation for the block reward halving, overlaid with an ASIC hype cycle that is in a trough before anything actually ships.

After 20 years in IT, I can tell you that BFL passes my BS test, but ordering today from them is more of a crapshoot because of shipping backlog than anything else.

To everyone who thinks that the only 2 options are "Legitimate or Scam" (I know, very small, very vocal %) you migh want to consider that you are spending so much time on the wring questions, that you will forget to ask the right ones. For instance, I have a big new concern after seeing this thread.

BFL: Are you using this equipment to manufacture preorders? When do you anticipate starting production using the new gear?

I ask this out of genuine business concern. If BFL is just getting their first pieces of high speed equipment, then there are 2 (likely) options:

• They have already gotten the boards for the first few batches prefabbed, and this is for future runs/products
• They have no boards yet, and need to start running this equipment ASAP

I'm hoping that it is the former, since I'm assuming that this stuff is a bit more than Plug-n-Pray to get up and running. They do mention an experienced team, but do they specialize in urgent turn-ups of this gear. Who knows, maybe these are they same guys that fed the machines at their previous home.

Since I'm not an employe, stockholder, or board member of BFL I really don't expect them to feel obligated to answer my questions, but if they do I will have a bit better information. Of course so will their competition, who may elect to change their own plans in response and remove the advantage BFL was trying to establish with the purchase of this equipment.

Trying to be a community member while also feeding your family (and employees families) with a for-profit enterprise is a difficult balancing act. The standards of this community around certain things is out of line with typical business expectations. 90% is information that I see shared under NDA in the IT world, but this forum is not exactly NDA...

[scrybe]

Certainly nothing like the facilities pictured in the link in the OP, which claims "These units are currently being installed in our new facility."  Then a couple days later, when called out on the origin of the photos, states "they're in transit".

So when a company says "we are installing additional capacity to expand production" when should they make the announcement? After they make the decision? After they pay for the gear? After they receive it? After they verify function? After they run their first production units on it?

Generally when I hear that phrase from customers/suppliers/partners it is used immediately after the decision is made. The CEO gets on the earnings call and tells us how they are expanding, and THEN the company executes (or completes) the strategy of getting the gear onsite, up, running, and productive.

Both statements are true, one is just more precise than the other.

[dust]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area.  

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

[Unacceptable]

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

Well, if you are looking for 100% you might want to look for another hobby. A major reason that BTC is exciting to many folks is that it is still in a state of growth, and everyone at this point can be considered an innovator or early adopter as far as the overall developing economy is concerned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle) Because of this early stage, the rules, regulations, and limits of what you can do with BTC are very loose and ill-defined, which in turn leads to:

OPPORTUNITY!

100% certainty is going to exist only in mature, and often ossified, systems that are already "loaded" in favor of the incumbents in the market (see: Regulatory Capture) and the margins are thin.

BitCoin offers far lower certainty, but you have huge opportunities like a potential future with $100 or $1000 value, which helps make up for the chance that I might to lose the whole thing.

Something else you can see played out here is the "Hype Cycle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle) with an overall BitCoin trough starting in preparation for the block reward halving, overlaid with an ASIC hype cycle that is in a trough before anything actually ships.

After 20 years in IT, I can tell you that BFL passes my BS test, but ordering today from them is more of a crapshoot because of shipping backlog than anything else.

To everyone who thinks that the only 2 options are "Legitimate or Scam" (I know, very small, very vocal %) you migh want to consider that you are spending so much time on the wring questions, that you will forget to ask the right ones. For instance, I have a big new concern after seeing this thread.

BFL: Are you using this equipment to manufacture preorders? When do you anticipate starting production using the new gear?

I ask this out of genuine business concern. If BFL is just getting their first pieces of high speed equipment, then there are 2 (likely) options:

• They have already gotten the boards for the first few batches prefabbed, and this is for future runs/products
• They have no boards yet, and need to start running this equipment ASAP

I'm hoping that it is the former, since I'm assuming that this stuff is a bit more than Plug-n-Pray to get up and running. They do mention an experienced team, but do they specialize in urgent turn-ups of this gear. Who knows, maybe these are they same guys that fed the machines at their previous home.

Since I'm not an employe, stockholder, or board member of BFL I really don't expect them to feel obligated to answer my questions, but if they do I will have a bit better information. Of course so will their competition, who may elect to change their own plans in response and remove the advantage BFL was trying to establish with the purchase of this equipment.

Trying to be a community member while also feeding your family (and employees families) with a for-profit enterprise is a difficult balancing act. The standards of this community around certain things is out of line with typical business expectations. 90% is information that I see shared under NDA in the IT world, but this forum is not exactly NDA...

This should be stickied at the head of the thread.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!!

[Unacceptable]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area.  

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

Good detective work!! So,they still have time to get the equipment up & running & start building up the first shipment 

[fuxianhui888]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area.  

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

thanks,good to know that

[Reckman]

+1

[freeAgent]

It seems unlikely the BFL would go through the trouble of buying that equipment if they didn't plan on using it, so I see that as a good sign.

[CoinHoarder]

So you mean all of the speculation and bickering in this thread was all for nothing?

SHOCKING! 

That said, I still hope they post pictures of the equipment this week so I don't lose my bet. 

[Kontakt]

So you mean all of the speculation and bickering in this thread was all for nothing?

SHOCKING! 

That said, I still hope they post pictures of the equipment this week so I don't lose my bet. 

I think the point is more that they could have said something. This could have been short circuited by a good bit if Inaba had just confirmed that they purchased that reflow machine, or told us that it was in shipment. I'm happy to hear they have equipment en-route to them, but the major trust issues stem from their reluctance to say much about anything, and Inaba's reaction to most questions being 'you are a troll and therefore stupid, good day.' Still, this should simmer down pretty quickly.

[Kaliecious]

So you mean all of the speculation and bickering in this thread was all for nothing?

SHOCKING! 

That said, I still hope they post pictures of the equipment this week so I don't lose my bet. 

I think the point is more that they could have said something. This could have been short circuited by a good bit if Inaba had just confirmed that they purchased that reflow machine, or told us that it was in shipment. I'm happy to hear they have equipment en-route to them, but the major trust issues stem from their reluctance to say much about anything, and Inaba's reaction to most questions being 'you are a troll and therefore stupid, good day.' Still, this should simmer down pretty quickly.

first off they are a business they dont have to tell us shit, if they dont want to. Second when they try to give us information people doubt it or put out a conspercy theory. Oh BFL this oh BFL that.
In the business you workk in do you tell your customers every little thing about it? Do you Confirm to your customers when you buy a piece of equipment to expand your business. i'm pretty sure you dont. Any info they give us is on good gesture.

if they didnt release anymore information about whats going on with the SC and production it wouldnt make a rats ass to me, I would have fun watching people cry about not getting information.
they've proved them self once with the fpga's They will do it again with the asic as people I hope are slowly seeing.

For the rest who just wanna be dicks, Well the link says it all

http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy



 

[Unacceptable]

So you mean all of the speculation and bickering in this thread was all for nothing?

SHOCKING! 

That said, I still hope they post pictures of the equipment this week so I don't lose my bet. 

I think the point is more that they could have said something. This could have been short circuited by a good bit if Inaba had just confirmed that they purchased that reflow machine, or told us that it was in shipment. I'm happy to hear they have equipment en-route to them, but the major trust issues stem from their reluctance to say much about anything, and Inaba's reaction to most questions being 'you are a troll and therefore stupid, good day.' Still, this should simmer down pretty quickly.

first off they are a business they dont have to tell us shit, if they dont want to. Second when they try to give us information people doubt it or put out a conspercy theory. Oh BFL this oh BFL that.
In the business you workk in do you tell your customers every little thing about it? Do you Confirm to your customers when you buy a piece of equipment to expand your business. i'm pretty sure you dont. Any info they give us is on good gesture.

if they didnt release anymore information about whats going on with the SC and production it wouldnt make a rats ass to me, I would have fun watching people cry about not getting information.
they've proved them self once with the fpga's They will do it again with the asic as people I hope are slowly seeing.

For the rest who just wanna be dicks, Well the link says it all

http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy



 

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now THAT'S FUNNY right thar 

Well said Kaliecious 

[Bogart]

first off they are a business they dont have to tell us shit, if they dont want to.

It's a little different when the business takes pre-order money from customers (100% of the purchase price I might add) to fund the development of the product.  In a case like this, the customers are more akin to shareholders IMO.

[Unacceptable]

The more they tell us,the more the competition knows.

My preorder money entitles me to nothing but a finished product being delivered by the date promised,IMO..............

If were a shareholder I would have bonds or something to show for it,correct??

I have nothing but a promise,that's good enough for me 

[Bogart]

I have nothing but a promise,that's good enough for me 

That's too good not to quote.

[Unacceptable]

Wear it with pride dude 

I believe in them,what can I say 

[bustaballs]

The more they tell us,the more the competition knows.

My preorder money entitles me to nothing but a finished product being delivered by the date promised,IMO..............

If were a shareholder I would have bonds or something to show for it,correct??

I have nothing but a promise,that's good enough for me 

Well, you'd have shares of their stock and voting privileges. But you know all of that before you invest in a company.

In this case, BFL did not say anything except that they were going to be producing ASIC mining equipment at certain specifications and anyone who wanted to preorder was welcome to do so. Anything beyond that is extra. The customers here are nothing like shareholders and are entitled to nothing except their product. I don't remember reading anything by BFL saying they were going to be super transparent and give daily or weekly updates on every tiny little detail of what's going on.

[yrtrnc]

Yes BFL has delivered before and maybe they will deliver this time round also. Still there are alot of sceptical people and alot of bad rumours and fishy going ons. If I did preorder a bfl device I would most probably be somewhat worried in the back of my mind as they have yet to produce any substantial evidence, strictly speaking from my limited knowledge.

Would it not boost their sales if they somehow proved they were going to deliver? Then why take so long to do so?
Pls dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say bfl are scammers and all the rest of it. Im simply trying to sympathize with the people who have invested quite a bit of their savings hoping they will make some money. What do you think? Can bfl do better to reassure their potential customers and also current customers?

[SLok]

My only worry is WHEN, not IF. Let it be weeks before the reward halving please.

[bitmar]

Yes BFL has delivered before and maybe they will deliver this time round also. Still there are alot of sceptical people and alot of bad rumours and fishy going ons. If I did preorder a bfl device I would most probably be somewhat worried in the back of my mind as they have yet to produce any substantial evidence, strictly speaking from my limited knowledge.

Would it not boost their sales if they somehow proved they were going to deliver? Then why take so long to do so?
Pls dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say bfl are scammers and all the rest of it. Im simply trying to sympathize with the people who have invested quite a bit of their savings hoping they will make some money. What do you think? Can bfl do better to reassure their potential customers and also current customers?

you're right. I would buy their rig if they will be more reliable. They have no proof that they are working on ASICs. Why should I trust them ? Over the last year I have learned one thing: do not trust anyone in bitcoin world. In fact, they sold a lot of FPGA, but  world already has seen more sophisticated fraudsters. I am not saying that they are scammers, I'm just cautious and distrustful man. I understand that the BFL has its own secrets, but sometimes they behave suspiciously. It is easy to cross the thin line between credibility and suspicion of fraud. I'm sure they would sell twice as many rigs if they changed their policy to business. But this is just my opinion

[mc_lovin]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area. 

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

^ I got my confirmation back from the seller as well, same message.

[Keefe]

Yes BFL has delivered before and maybe they will deliver this time round also. Still there are alot of sceptical people and alot of bad rumours and fishy going ons. If I did preorder a bfl device I would most probably be somewhat worried in the back of my mind as they have yet to produce any substantial evidence, strictly speaking from my limited knowledge.

Would it not boost their sales if they somehow proved they were going to deliver? Then why take so long to do so?
Pls dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say bfl are scammers and all the rest of it. Im simply trying to sympathize with the people who have invested quite a bit of their savings hoping they will make some money. What do you think? Can bfl do better to reassure their potential customers and also current customers?

Should they bother? They've already collected ~$4M, and will get millions more when shipments start. Maybe they feel that enough customers are sufficiently satisfied with the status quo.

[enmaku]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area. 

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

^ I got my confirmation back from the seller as well, same message.

You're all lucky this guy actually spoke to you at all. If I were that seller there is no way in hell I would put in any effort to appease a bunch of conspiracy theorists by potentially violating the privacy of my buyer. I wouldn't even have asked BFL, I would have sent your emails straight to the trash. You're also lucky this was an eBay purchase instead of direct - try asking a manufacturer for that kind of information and they'll kindly ask to see your warrant as security removes you from the building.

This entire effort is ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to believe that this many people have this much free time on your collective hands and this little common sense. If we were talking about any non-Bitcoin business BFL would actually be considered fairly transparent, but you're all too spoiled by the downright radical transparency of others to recognize that it's not actually normal for a tech business to hand you a "how to copy our shit" kit before the product is released. I also have the feeling that if BFL were a bigger business run by standard douchebag executive assholes, there would already be several lawsuits.

But hey, pass out the tinfoil hats, the controversy is just free advertising for the company you purportedly hate - especially when stuff like this happens. I'm sure you're right, though... I mean, buying thousands of dollars worth of electronics manufacturing equipment from eBay on the off chance you'll identify the source of the pictures then getting some random seller to cooperate with you to confirm the purchase is just part of the "long con." Totally. I mean, that sounds not at all crazy and totally like something people do, right?

[squeept]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area. 

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

^ I got my confirmation back from the seller as well, same message.

You're all lucky this guy actually spoke to you at all. If I were that seller there is no way in hell I would put in any effort to appease a bunch of conspiracy theorists by potentially violating the privacy of my buyer. I wouldn't even have asked BFL, I would have sent your emails straight to the trash. You're also lucky this was an eBay purchase instead of direct - try asking a manufacturer for that kind of information and they'll kindly ask to see your warrant as security removes you from the building.

This entire effort is ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to believe that this many people have this much free time on your collective hands and this little common sense. If we were talking about any non-Bitcoin business BFL would actually be considered fairly transparent, but you're all too spoiled by the downright radical transparency of others to recognize that it's not actually normal for a tech business to hand you a "how to copy our shit" kit before the product is released. I also have the feeling that if BFL were a bigger business run by standard douchebag executive assholes, there would already be several lawsuits.

But hey, pass out the tinfoil hats, the controversy is just free advertising for the company you purportedly hate - especially when stuff like this happens. I'm sure you're right, though... I mean, buying thousands of dollars worth of electronics manufacturing equipment from eBay on the off chance you'll identify the source of the pictures then getting some random seller to cooperate with you to confirm the purchase is just part of the "long con." Totally. I mean, that sounds not at all crazy and totally like something people do, right?

^This a hundred times. I think you're forgetting, though, that there are a ton of people that have a monetary interest in trashing and trolling about ASIC constantly, and plenty for specifically BFL. I have a pre-order with BFL, but I can't manage to bring myself to blather on about scams to pray that there are less ASIC devices in the wild at first so I can make a few more bucks.

On that note, I think anyone that is constantly spewing this trash, and is found to have pre-ordered any ASIC device, or is associated with any ASIC company, should get a scammer tag if BFL delivers. That's pretty much the definition of scam, right? Lying through your teeth to make a few bucks off the decisions you influenced others to make.

[Kaliecious]

defimation of charachter suit anyone?

[enmaku]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area. 

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

^ I got my confirmation back from the seller as well, same message.

You're all lucky this guy actually spoke to you at all. If I were that seller there is no way in hell I would put in any effort to appease a bunch of conspiracy theorists by potentially violating the privacy of my buyer. I wouldn't even have asked BFL, I would have sent your emails straight to the trash. You're also lucky this was an eBay purchase instead of direct - try asking a manufacturer for that kind of information and they'll kindly ask to see your warrant as security removes you from the building.

This entire effort is ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to believe that this many people have this much free time on your collective hands and this little common sense. If we were talking about any non-Bitcoin business BFL would actually be considered fairly transparent, but you're all too spoiled by the downright radical transparency of others to recognize that it's not actually normal for a tech business to hand you a "how to copy our shit" kit before the product is released. I also have the feeling that if BFL were a bigger business run by standard douchebag executive assholes, there would already be several lawsuits.

But hey, pass out the tinfoil hats, the controversy is just free advertising for the company you purportedly hate - especially when stuff like this happens. I'm sure you're right, though... I mean, buying thousands of dollars worth of electronics manufacturing equipment from eBay on the off chance you'll identify the source of the pictures then getting some random seller to cooperate with you to confirm the purchase is just part of the "long con." Totally. I mean, that sounds not at all crazy and totally like something people do, right?

^This a hundred times. I think you're forgetting, though, that there are a ton of people that have a monetary interest in trashing and trolling about ASIC constantly, and plenty for specifically BFL. I have a pre-order with BFL, but I can't manage to bring myself to blather on about scams to pray that there are less ASIC devices in the wild at first so I can make a few more bucks.

On that note, I think anyone that is constantly spewing this trash, and is found to have pre-ordered any ASIC device, or is associated with any ASIC company, should get a scammer tag if BFL delivers. That's pretty much the definition of scam, right? Lying through your teeth to make a few bucks off the decisions you influenced others to make.

I couldn't agree more. Shall we start a list of the angry shouting people and start tying them to ASIC competitors in preparation?

[Unacceptable]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area.  

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

^ I got my confirmation back from the seller as well, same message.

You're all lucky this guy actually spoke to you at all. If I were that seller there is no way in hell I would put in any effort to appease a bunch of conspiracy theorists by potentially violating the privacy of my buyer. I wouldn't even have asked BFL, I would have sent your emails straight to the trash. You're also lucky this was an eBay purchase instead of direct - try asking a manufacturer for that kind of information and they'll kindly ask to see your warrant as security removes you from the building.

This entire effort is ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to believe that this many people have this much free time on your collective hands and this little common sense. If we were talking about any non-Bitcoin business BFL would actually be considered fairly transparent, but you're all too spoiled by the downright radical transparency of others to recognize that it's not actually normal for a tech business to hand you a "how to copy our shit" kit before the product is released. I also have the feeling that if BFL were a bigger business run by standard douchebag executive assholes, there would already be several lawsuits.

But hey, pass out the tinfoil hats, the controversy is just free advertising for the company you purportedly hate - especially when stuff like this happens. I'm sure you're right, though... I mean, buying thousands of dollars worth of electronics manufacturing equipment from eBay on the off chance you'll identify the source of the pictures then getting some random seller to cooperate with you to confirm the purchase is just part of the "long con." Totally. I mean, that sounds not at all crazy and totally like something people do, right?

+1

I personally can't think or ANY reason for all the hate.Yes,some griping about shipping times,controversial past of an employee,misinformation on the FPGA's before release.

But the attacks from several posters is way beyond griping.Downright rude & worthy of a good slap to the face in my book.

No one owes anyone anything..........................

[PuertoLibre]

[Estimated Speculation based on known factors?]


BFL josh just released some info on the BFL forum that gives some clues (not unexpected) for what is behind the delay. Link:https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/104-Shipping-in-2-3-weeks?p=1461&viewfull=1#post1461

It seems I was right that they would have to readjust for power and heat spec changes.

[PuertoLibre]

BFL Josh also stated that the company can bump it up to 25% of maximum (1GHz). Which would yield about 80-90GH/s. Which is in the neighborhood of what I suspect Avalon ASIC may actually be rated at. (Though obviously I do not know that in any way)

[Speculation]
The renderings of the final product seem to include a rather standard heatpipe with a fan. Probably rated somewhere in the neighborhood of 125watts TDP. (Total Dissipation Power)

The water block is probably for enhanced cooling OR for taking it up further than the 1GHz mark.
[End Speculation]

Edit: I hope people begin asking BFL what their hardware is expected to handle in terms of ambient temperature. Keep in mind the hotter the boards run, the colder the room should be. (Air Conditioners or CRACs don't run for free...so they are not included in the power estimates)

http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/definition/computer-room-air-conditioning-unit

If they ran their hardware at 33% the ambient temperature can be pretty high (80~95F). As the speed of the chips and the heat coming off them increases...the ambient operating temperature *should* decrease to extend the life and reliability of the device. (in this case now running at roughly 50% overclock)

So buyers should normally ask what the overclock of the hardware means as far as ambient temperatures. If you live in a hot area, that means more frequent failures if the temperature remains high.

Avalons speculative specs are even higher than BFL rating so who knows if the ambient operating temperature for that piece of hardware is worse or better.

Time to starts asking questions folks! It is all in the fine print!

 

[abeaulieu]

Adding Josh's Quote from BFL forums:

So for an update on shipping times... As you might imagine, we get this question a lot. It seems like it would be a simple question to answer, but it's not. Let me describe the process so people can better understand why.


If you look at the current FPGA board in a Single or MiniRig, you'll see lots of capacitors, resistors, etc... about 350 little tiny parts attached to the board. Contrary to some of the conspiracy theories out there, all our boards are completely custom made, they aren't purchased from another manufacturer, etc... they are designed by us and made for us and us alone. As such, we are required to volume source every single part that goes on the board.


The ASICs are similar in so far as they also have nearly 350 components on each board. With the FPGAs, we sourced parts in the hundreds or low thousands at a time. For some of the ASIC parts, we are sourcing hundreds of thousands at a time which requires direct ordering & lead time dependancy from the respective manufacturers. However, for this first batch, we're mostly able to depend on available distribution stock from places like Mouser and DigiKey. Shortly after we get the first batch of everything in, we'll have our larger mega stockpiles arrive from other vendors and/or direct from the distributors, it's just the first batch that's going to be rough.


So, we've got he myriad distributors shipping thousands of little pieces to us, the PCB manufacturer sending us the bare PCBs, the HSF manufacturer sending the HSFs to us, the PSU manufacturer sending the PSU's to us, the case manufacturer sending the cases to us and most importantly, the fab sending the ASIC chips to us. All of these must arrive on time and as expected for everything to go off without a hitch. So far, so good.


When we made our announcement for shipping dates, we padded in some extra weeks in case of delays, and as we try to herd all these cats into one corral, our padding is slowly eaten up with mostly minor problems, but they all add up. With the bump in specs, we spent some time ensuring the power subsystem is over powered to accommodate the new and future power requirements - our chips are capable of higher speeds than what we initially intended to send out in the first batch, and they still have quite a bit of headroom; We decided to go ahead design the power subsystem to handle the maximum theoretical load of the chips. This means we can now crank the board up with some minor tweaking. Each chip is theoretically capable of operating at 1 GHz, we are running them at 500 MHz with the new specs... we will likely never see 1 GHz operations, simply because of heat density issues and a few other factors, but we have at least another 25% of headroom we can play with, if not more. Again, we built in a lot of padding into the specs, just in case something went wrong. We have basically padded everything we could in terms of estimates and that padding is what has allowed us to bump specs on short notice and keep our shipping times in line even in the face of delays.


Ok, so we have the cats herded, the specs staked out, now we have to actually build these things. As many of you know, we've purchased SMT machines to allow us to manufacture our own boards - and I have mentioned this before, but many have not heard it - we will not be using the SMT equipment to process our first batch of boards; we will be using the same house that did the pick and place for our previous generation products, which means we're still at the mercy of someone else for our first batch shipments. There has been some delays at that stage, but we have the padding, so it's not been a critical issue. There has also been some delays at the foundry, but again, we have padding, so it's not been a critical issue. We are also paying for an expedited run at the foundry (which does not come cheap) to keep our timeline up. All these things have to work out perfectly and our timeline is still looking good. However, if something does not work out perfectly, our timeline is going to slip, plain and simple. We've used up most of our padding at this point and we are still ironing out a few little wrinkles here and there. This has been a long explanation for a simple answer: I would like to tell you we are still on time or pretty close to it, because we are. However, I would also like to tell you that we are going to slip a couple weeks or so if anything goes wrong, and given the complexity of the issues facing us, I would say it's almost inevitable something will crop up between now and the beginning of November that we are not expecting; What that is, I don't know yet, but I would rather error on the side of caution, say the timeline is going to slip a little bit and then surprise everyone with an early delivery than promise an early delivery and not meet that promise. So that's what I'm doing and there's your answer. When I have more information, I'll let people know as soon as I can.

Source: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/104-Shipping-in-2-3-weeks?p=1461&viewfull=1#post1461

[freeAgent]

That's a pretty good explanation.  It's nice to see that they're getting pretty close to mass production.

[bitmar]

BFL started to accept orders 4 months ago, ASIC project is a complicated so we should expect rigs for about another 2-4 months, as I guess (speculation).  6-8 months is not bad considering the average time (18 months) for ASIC projects. It is a pity that the money deposited to the BFL not earn during this time.

[Monkey1]

So mid November at the earliest, which is late November for us non US residents.

[P_Shep]

so... 4-6 weeks then?

[kaerf]

very interesting to see that the chips have such high overclocking potential.

[bitmar]

very interesting to see that the chips have such high overclocking potential.

...and such energy efficient. This is amazing  based on the frequency, performance and energy consumption must be 1 nm technological process BFL ahead of his time as Leonardo da Vinci This promises to be a great revolution in bitcoin world

[squid]

At least they finally said something that made sense and stated they will be outsourcing their first set of boards. That will actually significantly reduce expected delay (in my opinion) as setting up all the fab pieces, getting people trained, making sure everything works properly and to spec is a significant undertaking.

[scrybe]

That thread answered my big question too, they will not be using the new gear for the first batch, it is for follow-on batches.

Ok, so we have the cats herded, the specs staked out, now we have to actually build these things. As many of you know, we've purchased SMT machines to allow us to manufacture our own boards - and I have mentioned this before, but many have not heard it - we will not be using the SMT equipment to process our first batch of boards; we will be using the same house that did the pick and place for our previous generation products, which means we're still at the mercy of someone else for our first batch shipments. There has been some delays at that stage, but we have the padding, so it's not been a critical issue. There has also been some delays at the foundry, but again, we have padding, so it's not been a critical issue. We are also paying for an expedited run at the foundry (which does not come cheap) to keep our timeline up. All these things have to work out perfectly and our timeline is still looking good. However, if something does not work out perfectly, our timeline is going to slip, plain and simple. We've used up most of our padding at this point and we are still ironing out a few little wrinkles here and there. This has been a long explanation for a simple answer: I would like to tell you we are still on time or pretty close to it, because we are. However, I would also like to tell you that we are going to slip a couple weeks or so if anything goes wrong, and given the complexity of the issues facing us, I would say it's almost inevitable something will crop up between now and the beginning of November that we are not expecting; What that is, I don't know yet, but I would rather error on the side of caution, say the timeline is going to slip a little bit and then surprise everyone with an early delivery than promise an early delivery and not meet that promise. So that's what I'm doing and there's your answer. When I have more information, I'll let people know as soon as I can.

[grishnakh]

Good explanation from Josh about the delivery times. It's gonna be exciting who'll be first in the ASIC market.

[ChipGeek]

This explanation makes me feel better.  IF they were trying to bring up the first batch on the new in-house production line, I would expect the first shipment to slip to December or January because of all of the little things that pop up.  But since they're making the first batch at an outside contractor, they have a very good chance of making November. 

I have corralled many herds of these cats (doing one right now on my job) and I can say it is very frustrating.  Some times something as simple as a $0.02 capacitor or resistor holds up the whole thing because you ASSUMED that they would be available by the millions.  But when you go to order them, someone else (IBM, Intel, Dell, whoever) just ordered every available one for some project they have and you have to wait XX weeks for the manufacturer to make more.

[franky1]

actually a great explanation.

 there i said it.

 Inaba(wearing his work name badge) has actually made a great and proper statement

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

I'm also glad to hear that they are not trying to produce the first boards directly at BFL headquarters. I could only imagine the panic that they would be going through trying to push the massive first order out to impatient customers. So basically in the beginning they will receive the boards and cases and have to assemble and test. I think they chose the correct route. Let someone more experienced produce the products from their prototyped designs, and replicate that same process in-house for years to come. The million dollar question is of course - "How many finished boards did they order?". Either way it was awesome to get such a detailed update.

[Keefe]

Actually, is the size of the first batch that important? It's not like you can change whether you're in it or not, at this point. And if you didn't order in the first month, I can almost guarantee you won't get a first batch shipment.

[scrybe]

Actually, is the size of the first batch that important? It's not like you can change whether you're in it or not, at this point. And if you didn't order in the first month, I can almost guarantee you won't get a first batch shipment.

Of course it is important (in mining speculation, of course!)

The size of the initial BFL batch can be used to infer the global has rate and difficulty situation for the 2 periods between batches (assuming it takes 30 days between batches)

The ramp on BFL directly affects the slope of the difficulty curve, everyone wants a peek at that!

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

Actually, is the size of the first batch that important? It's not like you can change whether you're in it or not, at this point. And if you didn't order in the first month, I can almost guarantee you won't get a first batch shipment.

I guess too bad for those people huh? Nothing I have to worry about.

[PuertoLibre]

very interesting to see that the chips have such high overclocking potential.

...and such energy efficient. This is amazing  based on the frequency, performance and energy consumption must be 1 nm technological process BFL ahead of his time as Leonardo da Vinci This promises to be a great revolution in bitcoin world

??

Your CPU is probably more energy efficient and probably has a lower TDP based on the frequency alone. (500Mhz)

If you down clocked your processor to 500mhz you could probably get away with passive cooling solutions.

Consider that it is an ASIC design and most of the energy consumed in the chip is probably converted directly into heat. The only reason it is very fast is because the design is very specific to the intended purpose.

(I doubt they use any SOI or other advanced fabrication processes like those found in the CPU designs from larger CPU companies.)

[crazyates]

If you down clocked your processor to 500mhz you could probably get away with passive cooling solutions.

Psh. I'm using a fanless(passive) Hyper 212+, with an undervolted and overclocked X3 445. I doubt I'll be able to do that when those FX-8350s come out, but hey, who cares?!

[bitmar]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man

[Zeek_W]

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man

That it is! Sad to say, no new images

[AndrewBUD]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

This is crazy... These things are supposed to ship in few weeks and their just bidding on equipment?

[crazyates]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

This is crazy... These things are supposed to ship in few weeks and their just bidding on equipment?

They said the first batch was too large for them to produce, even with this hardware. The initial batch will be manufactured at the same plant as as the current Singles, and shipped in a large batch. This hardware is for after they're all caught up, so they can make a unit and ship it within days of ordering.

[AndrewBUD]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

This is crazy... These things are supposed to ship in few weeks and their just bidding on equipment?

They said the first batch was too large for them to produce, even with this hardware. The initial batch will be manufactured at the same plant as as the current Singles, and shipped in a large batch. This hardware is for after they're all caught up, so they can make a unit and ship it within days of ordering.

Is that something similar to what happened with the FPGA's?

[crazyates]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

This is crazy... These things are supposed to ship in few weeks and their just bidding on equipment?

They said the first batch was too large for them to produce, even with this hardware. The initial batch will be manufactured at the same plant as as the current Singles, and shipped in a large batch. This hardware is for after they're all caught up, so they can make a unit and ship it within days of ordering.

Is that something similar to what happened with the FPGA's?

I don't think BFL ever even attempted to manufacture the current Singles.

[AndrewBUD]

I will see how things pan out.. I am not preordering anything... If that means I am SOL well so be it.

[Unacceptable]

If you haven't PRE-ORDERED any ASIC's from anyone,you pretty much missed the boarding party.

Not to say that you missed the boat though 

But thats your choice 

Hard to believe that someone with over 2000 posts here is that scared though....................

[Bogart]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man

Looks that way.

My signature address will be fine.

Better luck next time.

[bitmar]

Trust in business can cost you a lot of money, fortunately in this case only 5BTC.

[SLok]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/entry.php/14-Taking-delivery-of-the-oven

[bitmar]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/entry.php/14-Taking-delivery-of-the-oven

LOL 
 no one has found this picture yesterday? The first comments are from 14/10/2012. Pity that they would not have published this photo on a forum yesterday... but it seems that the winning is reversed

[Kaliecious]

look at the time it was posted, I think it was done to fuck with him. lol

[scrybe]

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3?  
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/entry.php/14-Taking-delivery-of-the-oven

LOL  
 no one has found this picture yesterday? The first comments are from 14/10/2012. Pity that they would not have published this photo on a forum yesterday... but it seems that the winning is reversed

I concur, nobody said Josh could not screw with us, it would seem that the bet did fall the other way.

Hey Inna, did you do that on purpose or just look down at the time and go "oh crap!?"

[bitmar]

look at the time it was posted, I think it was done to fuck with him. lol

I think so too, but I'm afraid followers of BFL sect so I'm quietly I suggest to cancel a bet, because date of the photo is in BFL moderators hands.

[scrybe]

look at the time it was posted, I think it was done to fuck with him. lol

I think so too, but I'm afraid followers of BFL sect so I'm quietly I suggest to cancel a bet, because date of the photo is in BFL moderators hands.

Seriously? you think they would screw with the time stamps on forum posts over a 5BTC bet?

Tinfoil hat much?

[bitmar]

look at the time it was posted, I think it was done to fuck with him. lol

I think so too, but I'm afraid followers of BFL sect so I'm quietly I suggest to cancel a bet, because date of the photo is in BFL moderators hands.

Seriously? you think they would screw with the time stamps on forum posts over a 5BTC bet?

Tinfoil hat much?

This is not about 5BTC, it's about honor their client and honor their own... and for good PR

[MrTeal]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

If Bogart wants to be semantic, he could argue that the picture of what appears to be the oven in the back of a truck doesn't meet the criteria of his bet. BFL announced that once the machines were fully installed they would provide photos and assembly videos. Bogart bet that BFL wouldn't provide photos that
1) BFL was in possession of the machines, and
2) Operating or setting up the machines for operation.

I'd  say 1) is satisfied, but 2) is questionable.

I wouldn't say Bogart won the bet, but I would say there's enough there that he could not pay without earning himself a scammer tag.

[Bogart]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

If Bogart wants to be semantic, he could argue that the picture of what appears to be the oven in the back of a truck doesn't meet the criteria of his bet. BFL announced that once the machines were fully installed they would provide photos and assembly videos. Bogart bet that BFL wouldn't provide photos that
1) BFL was in possession of the machines, and
2) Operating or setting up the machines for operation.

I'd  say 1) is satisfied, but 2) is questionable.

I wouldn't say Bogart won the bet, but I would say there's enough there that he could not pay without earning himself a scammer tag.

Hm...  Also if you want to argue semantics, CoinHoarder said:

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Going by the post date on the blog, they were posted near the end of 10/13, not before 10/13.

What do you think CoinHoarder?

[SLok]

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

Is "thru the 13th" not including the 13th itself? Sorry if it is not, english is not my mother tongue.

[Kaliecious]

saturday was the 13th the last day of the week he said through the 13 so therfore 13th would be included

[squid]

It's the 14th... were any new pictures posted?

[bobitza]

One machine delivered.

[Bogart]

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

[bitmar]

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

Do not do it. there are too much fanatical BFL's followers
before is before, before <13 not = <
It would be fair to cancel the bet because of unclear proof, and not sufficiently precise wording bet. But both sides must agree.

[CoinHoarder]

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

Do not do it. there are too much fanatical BFL's followers
before is before, before <13 not = <
It would be fair to cancel the bet because of unclear proof, and not sufficiently precise wording bet. But both sides must agree.

Yes, I said before the 13th. However, he said through the 13th.

So at the end of the day, whose statement do we go by? Or do both void each other out as the terms were not clear?

I'm not trying to get off on some technicality, but it was proven that the reflow machine was bought by BFL a day(ish) after we made out bet. So just because they didn't post pictures of it, I lose, even though we know they bought the machine? Pretty lame. But, in the end Bogart's wording may have saved me?

[Bogart]

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

Do not do it. there are too much fanatical BFL's followers
before is before, before <13 not = <
It would be fair to cancel the bet because of unclear proof, and not sufficiently precise wording bet. But both sides must agree.

Yes, I said before the 13th. However, he said through the 13th.

So at the end of the day, whose statement do we go by? Or do both void each other out as the terms were not clear?

I'm not trying to get off on some technicality, but it was proven that the reflow machine was bought by BFL a day(ish) after we made out bet. So just because they didn't post pictures of it, I lose, even though we know they bought the machine? Pretty lame. But, in the end Bogart's wording may have saved me?

I'll agree to call it off if you will.

I guess in the future we should be more clear with bets.

[Kontakt]

Just go for BoB next time. Make things nice and simple.

[Enigma81]

JUST Saw this thread for the first time.. MyData?  Hahahaha.. "High Speed Pick and Place", um, no...

You want high speed?  Assembleon MG/MX series, Universal Genesis Series, etc..

You want REALLY high speed?  Universal HSP, Sanyo, Assembleon iFlex, Yamaha, Fuji, etc..

And that solder paste printer?  It's slower than dripping dog turds in winter.

Sorry, these guys aren't serious about building hardware.

They're laying down BGA parts, and probably QFN parts.. Do they have X-Ray inspection?  Do they have 3D solder paste inspection?


Enigma

[PuertoLibre]

[..]
They're laying down BGA parts, and probably QFN parts.. Do they have X-Ray inspection?  Do they have 3D solder paste inspection?
[..]

In the spirit of bringing the discussion to a higher level, the above is "translated" into links for further reading.

BGA parts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

A ball grid array (BGA) is a type of surface-mount packaging used for integrated circuits. BGA packages are used to permanently mount devices such as microprocessors. A BGA can provide more interconnection pins than can be put on a dual in-line or flat package. The whole bottom surface of the device can be used, instead of just the perimeter. The leads are also on average shorter than with a perimeter-only type, leading to better performance at high speeds.
Soldering of BGA devices requires precise control and is usually done by automated processes. A BGA device is never mounted in a socket in use.

What is X-Ray Inspection?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_X-ray_inspection

Automated X-ray inspection (AXI) is a technology based on the same principles as automated optical inspection (AOI). It uses X-rays as its source, instead of visible light, to automatically inspect features, which are typically hidden from view.
The increasing usage of ICs (integrated circuit) with packages such as BGAs (ball grid array) where the connections are underneath the chip and not visible, means that ordinary optical inspection is impossible. Because the connections are underneath the chip package there is a greater need to ensure that the manufacturing process is able to accommodate these chips correctly. Additionally the chips that use BGA packages tend to be the larger ones with many connections. Therefore it is essential that all the connections are made correctly.[1]
AXI is often paired with the testing provided by boundary scan test, in-circuit test, and functional test.

QFN parts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad-flat_no-leads_package

Flat no-leads packages such as QFN (quad-flat no-leads) and DFN (dual-flat no-leads) physically and electrically connect integrated circuits to printed circuit boards. Flat no-leads, also known as MicroLeadFrame and SON (small-outline no leads), is a surface-mount technology, one of several package technologies that connect ICs to the surfaces of PCBs without through-holes. Flat no-lead is a near chip scale package plastic encapsulated package made with a planar copper lead frame substrate. Perimeter lands on the package bottom provide electrical connections to the PCB.[1] Flat no-lead packages include an exposed thermal pad to improve heat transfer out of the IC (into the PCB). Heat transfer can be further facilitated by metal vias in the thermal pad.[2] The QFN package is similar to the quad-flat package, and a ball grid array.

Automated optical inspection (AOI)
http://www.goepel.com/en/optical-inspection/aoi-systems/solder-paste-inspection.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGCQEpCD8ts (Step 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8SidZ3wLvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ThMLs-Cuek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQihWCpN9I

[PuertoLibre]

High speed placement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nah4BQ9y8IY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiQLS34A7LU

VS

Low Speed Placement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BRVY6XNdM0

VS

Ultra Low Speed Placement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzTA83WSNoo

[squeept]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

[Kontakt]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

[squeept]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

Calm your jets. I'm one jerk making abrasive comments.

[Kontakt]

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

Calm your jets. I'm one jerk making abrasive comments.

Things only get big when people wig out over them.

[yrtrnc]

They also need one of these machines if they want to speed up production http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMIJRtoVDs

[Enigma81]

You guys are funny.  I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had reached the Butterfly Labs Fan Boi Network (BFLFBN).

Since there is no concern about how BFL hardware is built/tested/inspected - I guess their first generation FPGA stuff must have had a zero or near zero failure rate.

Enjoy your day.

Enigma

[squeept]

And I've seen plenty of electronics released that have incredible failure rates, that were designed by teams of hundreds of highly qualified engineers and produced using the most expensive and sophisticated machinery money can buy.

They can build their product with hot air guns, toaster ovens, and hobby soldering irons for all I care, as long as it works. The results are all I'm after, and since those are yet to come, you're just criticizing your own assumptions of future quality.

If a few months from now, their hardware is in the wild and undergoing pandemic levels of failure, then you can gloat and mock and flail your knowledge-peen around all you want. Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

[abeaulieu]

And I've seen plenty of electronics released that have incredible failure rates, that were designed by teams of hundreds of highly qualified engineers and produced using the most expensive and sophisticated machinery money can buy.

They can build their product with hot air guns, toaster ovens, and hobby soldering irons for all I care, as long as it works. The results are all I'm after, and since those are yet to come, you're just criticizing your own assumptions of future quality.

If a few months from now, their hardware is in the wild and undergoing pandemic levels of failure, then you can gloat and mock and flail your knowledge-peen around all you want. Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

Well their singles have done well thus far by what i can tell from lack of ranting on these forums about defective hardware.

It is a little different that they are in-house assembling the SC hardware though. This could be good if they do have to do some re-work to get them out the door on time.

[Enigma81]

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

[squeept]

Wow, that would have made Pee-wee Herman blush.

[michaelmclees]

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

I could be completely wrong here... but the above sounds similar to an auto mechanic insisting that his customer *needs* various things to make his car run property at 100%.  The mechanic is 100% correct, but a perfectly running car isn't what the customer is interested in.  Similarly, perfectly running products from BFL aren't really what I'm interested in.  If they have some downtime... OK.  If I have to finagle them around... fine.  In fact, I'd be happy if they ditched their cases and shipped their stuff open, like other people have shipped their FPGA's.

The fact of the matter is, the initial ASIC race will be won almost entirely by whomever is able to ship first, whether or not the products are 100% free of defects.

[BFL-Engineer]

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

I could be completely wrong here... but the above sounds similar to an auto mechanic insisting that his customer *needs* various things to make his car run property at 100%.  The mechanic is 100% correct, but a perfectly running car isn't what the customer is interested in.  Similarly, perfectly running products from BFL aren't really what I'm interested in.  If they have some downtime... OK.  If I have to finagle them around... fine.  In fact, I'd be happy if they ditched their cases and shipped their stuff open, like other people have shipped their FPGA's.

The fact of the matter is, the initial ASIC race will be won almost entirely by whomever is able to ship first, whether or not the products are 100% free of defects.

Of course I must add that this would be the case if you wish to keep your devices and not switch to other mining hardware. Otherwise, you may earn your hardwares
cost in a short time, but will be spending it to buy some other hardware, thus reducing your end profit.


Regards,
Nasser

[MrTeal]

If I had to make a car mechanic analogy, I would say Enigma's point is more like this:
You don't want to have to rely on the dealership to fix your 2012 Mercedes anymore since it's tough to book an appointment and you don't want to wait anymore. You decide to buy a Chinese OBD-II reader off eBay, a bottle jack from Harbor Freight, a Haynes manual from Amazon and a socket set from Sears and do all your repairs in your garage.

[michaelmclees]

But carrying the analogy, would Enigma say that what you're doing in your garage is simply not enough and you need to get a million dollars worth of tools and equipment from AMG?  That's the analogy.

I don't know if he's correct is my point.  Assuming that he is correct if the average BFL customer will settle for nothing less than 100% perfect, is he still correct if they are willing to restart their machines every week or so?

[michaelmclees]

But carrying the analogy, would Enigma say that what you're doing in your garage is simply not enough and you need to get a million dollars worth of tools and equipment from AMG?  That's the analogy.

I don't know if he's correct is my point.  Assuming that he is correct if the average BFL customer will settle for nothing less than 100% perfect, is he still correct if they are willing to restart their machines every week or so?

You can carry most analogies too far, and I think we can see the breaking point from here.

Walk into your average small dealership service department and see the equipment they have.  Then walk into a small but sustainable garage.  You'll see that people can get work done in both, but there's a lot less bodging in the dealership.  In the small garage, one employee has to wear multiple hats (hey, I do startups, that's how we roll) which decreases depth of knowledge and ability to foresee potential problems but minimises cost.  This can result in a bunch of "oh shit" moments where valuable lessons are learned that would have been avoided by spending hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on a specialised piece of equipment and at least one trained tech.

I guess I just want to ask straight out at this point.  Will BFL be able to put out workable products without making the investments that Enigma is saying are required?

[Inaba]

Well... I'm having trouble with the question.  If the answer were no, why would we be doing it?  The answer must necessarily be yes.  Sure, we could turn out to be wildly out of our depth, but we are not basing our first batch of products on our new equipment (it's still being done by our current facility) and if something goes wildly wrong and our quality is not up to snuff going forward, we still have the current houses in place to manufacture our equipment, so it's not really a problem for the end user/customer in either event.

[michaelmclees]

If the answer were no, why would we be doing it?  The answer must necessarily be yes.

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

So the answer turns out to be... Enigma is full of it.

Response Enigma?

[Syke]

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

Yeah, but why? Every corner in Shenzhen has the team/equipment to do it quicker and cheaper.

[abeaulieu]

If the answer were no, why would we be doing it?  The answer must necessarily be yes.

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

So the answer turns out to be... Enigma is full of it.

Response Enigma?

Enigma's points are valid concerns. They may be slightly over-worrisome, but these are things that BFL should be thinking about. Of course their "lifetime warranty" now means that these are things that the customers have to worry less about .

[squeept]

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

Yeah, but why? Every corner in Shenzhen has the team/equipment to do it quicker and cheaper.

Because they take a month off right when these things will really ramp up in delivery. And overseas shipping and dealing with customs is a complete nightmare.

Also, I like that enigma ignored my response, quoted it, then became even more erect.

[PuertoLibre]

But carrying the analogy, would Enigma say that what you're doing in your garage is simply not enough and you need to get a million dollars worth of tools and equipment from AMG?  That's the analogy.

I don't know if he's correct is my point.  Assuming that he is correct if the average BFL customer will settle for nothing less than 100% perfect, is he still correct if they are willing to restart their machines every week or so?

I think Enigmas point is that there are many challenges and quality issues to work through.

He feels in his opinion that the commercial components they bought are inadequate to truly provide a high level of quality control and internal fabrication that BFL sought to aquire

All the other technical jargon supports his opinion. (much appreciated technical jargon!)

[PuertoLibre]

But carrying the analogy, would Enigma say that what you're doing in your garage is simply not enough and you need to get a million dollars worth of tools and equipment from AMG?  That's the analogy.

I don't know if he's correct is my point.  Assuming that he is correct if the average BFL customer will settle for nothing less than 100% perfect, is he still correct if they are willing to restart their machines every week or so?

You can carry most analogies too far, and I think we can see the breaking point from here.

Walk into your average small dealership service department and see the equipment they have.  Then walk into a small but sustainable garage.  You'll see that people can get work done in both, but there's a lot less bodging in the dealership.  In the small garage, one employee has to wear multiple hats (hey, I do startups, that's how we roll) which decreases depth of knowledge and ability to foresee potential problems but minimises cost.  This can result in a bunch of "oh shit" moments where valuable lessons are learned that would have been avoided by spending hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on a specialised piece of equipment and at least one trained tech.

Thats what Enigma was aiming to put down in his points/posts.

[PuertoLibre]

If the answer were no, why would we be doing it?  The answer must necessarily be yes.

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

So the answer turns out to be... Enigma is full of it.

Response Enigma?

No, not even close....

Enigma mentioned plenty of real points that someone working at one of those fabrication plants would recognize as "an issue". He points out that more demanding hardware fabrication projects would need better hardware than those cited by BFL.

Assuming that BFL hired a good consultant that understood their current and future needs, there should be no problems. If the consultant didn't do a good job, then BFL just spent about 50k on inadequate equipment. (Thats Enigmas [professional] opinion)

Though Enigma does not know what techniques are employed to build the project that BFL is working with, so he does not ultimately know (for sure) if BFLs in-house equipment is adequate for the job. He only states that it would be a poor choice for most jobs hes worked on.

Again, it all depends on whether BFL purchased the right equipment for the project or if it will be inadequate for the task.

They (BFL) could be using very rudimentary fab techniques and therefore there is no issue. Or they could have a "Oh Sh*t!" or "Doh!" moment when they try to do the fab in-house. Hopefully the consultant or advice they were given was good advice...then there would be no problems.

------------------------

As BFL_Josh/Inaba said, if there is a problem it won't show up in the first batch (that is being done by a separate fab house). If they do it for the second batch and there are problems, then they will default to plan B and use a separate fab house if the equipment doesn't do what they hope it will do.

[Syke]

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

Yeah, but why? Every corner in Shenzhen has the team/equipment to do it quicker and cheaper.

Since my quote was lifted without context, I said it's feasible.  I didn't say it was profitable or even a good idea for a company to do.  Hell, look at all the Arduino kits that eight-year-olds can build.

Exactly. So why is BFL trying to go down that path? Why not let the pros do it?

[Keefe]

It all depends on relationships.  They may not have the face time in China to work out all the kinks.  They may have to work through an intermediary who drives up costs.  They may be unhappy with various stages, or all stages, of the work that is done overseas.

I have no idea why they've decided to take on specific parts of their assembly themselves, but we can all guess.  Maybe Chinese business ethics prevents them from sanding off all identifying marks on chips stolen from BTCFPGA's fab.

I've been fortunate to work in tech-heavy locations, but I've still had to travel to China to kick off relationships, projects, etc., to make sure things work out OK.  When we haven't had someone on the ground, we've gone back and forth with revised tech packs, killing time to market and margins.

ROFL!

No offence meant toward ngzhang and crew. It's just that I've done business with other Chinese who act like it's totally normal to recycle old computer parts and sell them as "new" as long as they're cleaned up enough to look new, and sometimes even if obviously used. I have a feeling that's quite common over there.

[ChipGeek]

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

I understand your point but consider this:  What if BFL is willing to sacrifice throughput?  Couldn't they park the boards in the middle and create whatever temperature profile they want? 

For production assembly of some products, we use an assembly house with a very long oven (I do not know how many feet it is).  For others, we use an assembly house with similar equipment to what it appears BFL has purchased.  For some in-house prototypes, we use a small commercial oven that is roughly the size of a household oven.  We place the board inside, set whatever temperature profile we want on the computer then wait for the cycle to finish. Granted this is VERY slow by normal production standards.  But if BFL was able to produce 50 to 100 boards per day, that would probably be enough.  Remember, BFL is not making Android smart phones here.  The total volume is not huge compared to industry standards.

[bobitza]

Exactly. So why is BFL trying to go down that path? Why not let the pros do it?

Because they will have some sort of control if something went wrong. Because if China decides it's the Year of the Dragon 1 month holiday, that means 1 month with no work being done. Etc.

And you can see how people are screaming if there are delays in deliveries.

[squid]

Exactly. So why is BFL trying to go down that path? Why not let the pros do it?

Because they will have some sort of control if something went wrong. Because if China decides it's the Year of the Dragon 1 month holiday, that means 1 month with no work being done. Etc.

And you can see how people are screaming if there are delays in deliveries.

Yea, I am sure China shuts everything down for 1 month. Makes sense.

[Tinua]

Exactly. So why is BFL trying to go down that path? Why not let the pros do it?

Because they will have some sort of control if something went wrong. Because if China decides it's the Year of the Dragon 1 month holiday, that means 1 month with no work being done. Etc.

And you can see how people are screaming if there are delays in deliveries.

Yea, I am sure China shuts everything down for 1 month. Makes sense.

During the Chinese New Year, most of the workers go home to their families, who live hundreds of miles away! During this time, many factories do not have much output! Thus, only large customers will be served!

[squeept]

Not only are they shut down for a full month, but they still accept orders, so when they start back up, they're bogged down for a long time.

[abeaulieu]

Exactly. So why is BFL trying to go down that path? Why not let the pros do it?

Because they will have some sort of control if something went wrong. Because if China decides it's the Year of the Dragon 1 month holiday, that means 1 month with no work being done. Etc.

And you can see how people are screaming if there are delays in deliveries.

Yea, I am sure China shuts everything down for 1 month. Makes sense.

During the Chinese New Year, most of the workers go home to their families, who live hundreds of miles away! During this time, many factories do not have much output! Thus, only large customers will be served!

This is what haunted BFL for the original single release and it probably what they're trying to hedge against now by acquiring some equipment for internal assembly.

[MrTeal]

Yeah, think of it like a couple week long Christmas. If you do much ordering from China, get used to hearing they're a two week lead time if they can get it out before New Year's. If not, it'll be a couple months.

As for BFL's high speed equipment, looking at their boards it seems there's a single small BGA, with the rest of the chips either being QFN or leaded. That makes the requirements for assembly and chip inspection much simpler than they would have even had for their FPGA singles.

[abeaulieu]

As for BFL's high speed equipment, looking at their boards it seems there's a single small BGA, with the rest of the chips either being QFN or leaded. That makes the requirements for assembly and chip inspection much simpler than they would have even had for their FPGA singles.

Good point.
That BGA might only exist in the MiniRig cards for communication purposes too. It might be a no-populate for the rest, who knows.

[squeept]

I almost lost my business the first time I experienced Chinese New Year.