Bitcoin's real value

[turvarya]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

Bitcoin has value, it's just that there are not enough merchants to cater your needs that's why you deem it as worthless. Also, it is wrong to say that this technology is worthless or whatsoever because billions of dollars are poured into it.

There was poured billions into worthless internet companies in the early days of internet. Had thos companies value?

Ponzi and pyramid schemes are based on people pouring in money. Do they have value?


The idea that bitcoin has a real value at the moment is absurd. Its just a "handfull" group of people who know about it and it is useless for the most part. If you dont search activly for places to use your bitcoins you are likely to never find a merchant who accepts them.

That is just wrong. I stumbled over merchants, who accept Bitcoin many times, even if it just a small percentage of all the merchants in the world.

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

Okay then, we'll go back to the original implementation of Bitcoin that had a 33.5MB blocksize.  Satoshi subjected the network to a pretty major modification to the rules when he introduced the 1MB limit. 

And we would not be able to fix bugs.
Anybody who says, we should set things in stone, has no idea how anything works. History shows that every culture, who did something like that, had their downfall.

Strange.... I do 90% of my shoping online and has never seen a merchant accepting bitcoins. Might be because i never search for merchants who accept them but search for those who give me the best deals.

Fact is that you are lucky to even hear about bitcoin if you dont search for it. It is almost never in the news and not talked about among people. Only once this year i have seen an news article about bitcoin and it was only about the blockchain and not the currency.

Bitcoin is kept alive by a small number of people who think bitcoin is much larger than it is. At the moment it is just a beta test of the blockchain tech. Nothing else.

I agree, that they don't always have the best deals, but when I bought The Witcher 3, I was on one of this sites, that compare prices and , as far as I remember, 2 Shops, which accepted Bitcoin, where in the Top 5.
When I did buy things for my raspberry pi, there suddenly was the option to pay with Bitcoin(not mentioned on the main page). When I bought a VPN-connection, I also paid with Bitcoin.
Maybe, you don't see the option to pay with Bitcoin, because you mainly buy from Amazon?

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[hdbuck]

...

Strange.... I do 90% of my shoping online and has never seen a merchant accepting bitcoins. Might be because i never search for merchants who accept them but search for those who give me the best deals.

Fact is that you are lucky to even hear about bitcoin if you dont search for it. It is almost never in the news and not talked about among people. Only once this year i have seen an news article about bitcoin and it was only about the blockchain and not the currency.

Bitcoin is kept alive by a small number of people who think bitcoin is much larger than it is. At the moment it is just a beta test of the blockchain tech. Nothing else.

you are correct in implying 99,99% merchants do not have any incentives as to accept bitcoin as it is now.

why? because it is still considered an investment. not money.

regular sheeples are just not ready to use their smartphones to pay for anything. they are highly and rightfully scared that it would be a tool for tracking them even more, tax them and all the horrible things tptb wants to inforce for the future.

anyhow, the question is would you give up bitcoin's potential to overtake any quoted regular investment in terms of pricing, just for merchants to deal with a dollar/euro/yuan like *stable*currency? how could it reach new ath if people just keep spending them?

this is nonsens, i repeat, you can think of bitcoin as either an investment, that you hold for its trustles-ness, its term-deflation-ness, it's safe-haven-ness from all the banksters and their financial pile of shit, or something that you want to transact with on a daily basis.. but then it will never have a great valuation,  and chances are it would not even stabilize, because i'd argue it will just sink as a vulgar internet token. ~altcoin like.

[pawel7777]

Why?

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...
But hopefully, not like the euro, bitcoin is an investment! not cash, not pocket money!

It is a Privilege, as in the privilege of securing your wealth from the banksters and bypass them!
...

If you take away merchant acceptance and all the practical usage, that means you can only use/trade your 'investment' on centralised BTC/fiat exchanges, subjected to AML/KYC regulations and completely opened to the same (if not higher) risk as your fiat holdings.

And what would give your 'investment' the value if you slaughter huge % of demand and make BTC completely unattractive for any new people to join?

[hdbuck]

^ sry not on purpose i wanted to quote..

[hdbuck]

...

Clearly we have very different views on what the fundamental purpose of Bitcoin is.  I personally find your views quite repugnant.  But ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think.  This is a numbers game.  We'll see who has the greater numbers at the end of it all.  I suspect the answer is obvious, though.  If you want Bitcoin to benefit a small minority more than it benefits the majority, the problem with that is that the majority will be against you.

it will never benefit the majority.

stop buying this socialist bullshit propaganda. it's time to be more pragmatic.

you just dont get it man, you've been lied to all your life probably and cant take the shit out of your eyes.

next thing you are going to do is vote obama, clinton or whatever creepy tyrant you think of as your saver...


ps: sry for the bad words.

[hdbuck]

this is exactly what is going on, hegel dialectic:

This is hegel dialectic.
Problem -> reaction -> solution

(pseudo)Problem: blocksize
reaction: Gavinhearn attack
solution: blocksize increase

You're all being toyed and mindfucked with. If everything goes according to plan none of you have a choice but to agree on a blocksize increase which was the goal from the beginning. You have no choice because "if you don't vote for bigger blocks now Gavinhearn will win".

This whole debate is rigged from the very beginning and XT winning isn't even intended. The goal here is to get everyone to agree on a blocksize increase without a real need for it, not to adopt xt. XT is just the scarecrow to get your consent to blocksize expansion.

so they create a precedent and pull the control over bitcoin.

bitcoin cannot and should not be under the control of anyone, regardless of our good intention of saving the little babies in africa or whatever.

if you dont see bitcoin as an investment, but rather as just some internet pocket money, there is no point buying and speculating on bitcoin!

and the sheeple/mass never will because visa/paypal/mastercard work just fine and are likely to never disappear.

[Hopalong]

...

Clearly we have very different views on what the fundamental purpose of Bitcoin is.  I personally find your views quite repugnant.  But ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think.  This is a numbers game.  We'll see who has the greater numbers at the end of it all.  I suspect the answer is obvious, though.  If you want Bitcoin to benefit a small minority more than it benefits the majority, the problem with that is that the majority will be against you.

it will never benefit the majority.

stop buying this socialist bullshit propaganda. it's time to be more pragmatic.

you just dont get it man, you've been lied to all your life probably and cant take the shit out of your eyes.

next thing you are going to do is vote obama, clinton or whatever creepy tyrant you think of as your saver...


ps: sry for the bad words.

It would be nice if everyone had an agreement of what bitcoin is supposed to be....

Is it a safe haven for investers in crisis like gold? Then it must have a use outside of crisis so it keep value when the investers need it.

Is it a payment system like paypal? Then the exchange rate must be stable so it is safe to have your funds there without risk.

Is it a currency? Then it must be simple and safe to use for everyone. No more paperwallets and securing of private keys because idiots cant handle it.

Is it a investment object? Then go ahead and use it as it is because it is perfect for that right now.

To me it is useless as currency and i am not rich enough to do heavy investments so i am left with the paypal killer, but that is just me....

[hdbuck]

...

Clearly we have very different views on what the fundamental purpose of Bitcoin is.  I personally find your views quite repugnant.  But ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think.  This is a numbers game.  We'll see who has the greater numbers at the end of it all.  I suspect the answer is obvious, though.  If you want Bitcoin to benefit a small minority more than it benefits the majority, the problem with that is that the majority will be against you.

it will never benefit the majority.

stop buying this socialist bullshit propaganda. it's time to be more pragmatic.

you just dont get it man, you've been lied to all your life probably and cant take the shit out of your eyes.

next thing you are going to do is vote obama, clinton or whatever creepy tyrant you think of as your saver...


ps: sry for the bad words.

It would be nice if everyone had an agreement of what bitcoin is supposed to be....

Is it a safe haven for investers in crisis like gold? Then it must have a use outside of crisis so it keep value when the investers need it.

Is it a payment system like paypal? Then the exchange rate must be stable so it is safe to have your funds there without risk.

Is it a currency? Then it must be simple and safe to use for everyone. No more paperwallets and securing of private keys because idiots cant handle it.

Is it a investment object? Then go ahead and use it as it is because it is perfect for that right now.

To me it is useless as currency and i am not rich enough to do heavy investments so i am left with the paypal killer, but that is just me....

yea well thats more honest for a start.

i know im in it for the money. not saving the world. because nothing can. sry.

[pawel7777]

^ sry not on purpose i wanted to quote..

OK. Any chance for a reply then?

What gives the investment a value if there are no other usage than investment itself? What do you actually invest in in such case? How would that be different than i.e. beanie babies?

Isn't it like starting a dormant company and hoping its shares will skyrocket?

[hdbuck]

...
But hopefully, not like the euro, bitcoin is an investment! not cash, not pocket money!

It is a Privilege, as in the privilege of securing your wealth from the banksters and bypass them!
...

If you take away merchant acceptance and all the practical usage, that means you can only use/trade your 'investment' on centralised BTC/fiat exchanges, subjected to AML/KYC regulations and completely opened to the same (if not higher) risk as your fiat holdings.

And what would give your 'investment' the value if you slaughter huge % of demand and make BTC completely unattractive for any new people to join?

first there is no proof or data regarding that alleged "huge %" of demand. its a smoke screen.

what should make bitcoin attractive to new "users" (i'd rather refer to them as "investors") is that they would see in it kind of a parallel way (if not the only way!) of securing their wealth, bypassing the banksters' bails-in and their sand castle of degenerated financial vehicles. (or even avoid/reducing taxation for that matter. )

why do you think people around here were all exited because of the greek crisis?

with all respect and compassion for them greek peopel, i dont think because of some average screwed greek could buy some bread pitas with bitcoin.

sadly enough most of them are left with nothing anyway.

hence, the only way bitcoin could reach new ATHs, in my view, is because of relatively "rich" people injecting actual money in it, because they would consider it a privilege, a decentralized-anthropo-resilient-cryptographically-secured-safe-haven..

it is purely mechanical and is so not because of the "regular dude" wanting to buy some pizza or some usb chip on the internet.


edit: plus, just look at how horrible it is to buy your first bitcoin? its so much worst than to enter your credit card numbers! and all the "atms" in the world wont change anything.

[pawel7777]

...

what should make bitcoin attractive to new "users" (i'd rather refer to them as "investors") is that they would see in it kind of a parallel way (if not the only way!) of securing their wealth, bypassing the banksters' bails-in and their sand castle of degenerated financial vehicles.
...

Let's try to stay pragmatic here. Two simple questions:

1- How would that be different than beanie babies or investing in shares of dormant company? You basically invest in hope that some other 'investor' will be happy to pay more for your 'investment' and nothing more. What would you need blockchain for then at all? If there's no practical use, why not replacing it with limited edition, hologram protected paper 'certificates of nothing'. Seems much better, as there will be no mining costs etc.

2- If you take away everything and are left with 'investment' use only, that means BTC practically don't exist outside BTC/fiat exchanges (regulated, with KYC/AML). So where's that protection from banks/governments you're talking about? If you kill all the other infrastructure (or give it away to altcoins), what will you do with your bitcoins if exchanges start/are forced to restrict your funds?

[hdbuck]

...

what should make bitcoin attractive to new "users" (i'd rather refer to them as "investors") is that they would see in it kind of a parallel way (if not the only way!) of securing their wealth, bypassing the banksters' bails-in and their sand castle of degenerated financial vehicles.
...

Let's try to stay pragmatic here. Two simple questions:

1- How would that be different than beanie babies or investing in shares of dormant company? You basically invest in hope that some other 'investor' will be happy to pay more for your 'investment' and nothing more. What would you need blockchain for then at all? If there's no practical use, why not replacing it with limited edition, hologram protected paper 'certificates of nothing'. Seems much better, as there will be no mining costs etc.

2- If you take away everything and are left with 'investment' use only, that means BTC practically don't exist outside BTC/fiat exchanges (regulated, with KYC/AML). So where's that protection from banks/governments you're talking about? If you kill all the other infrastructure (or give it away to altcoins), what will you do with your bitcoins if exchanges start/are forced to restrict your funds?

hum, you cant seriously compare bitcoin with beanie babies.

as i said:  the one and only incentive for serious investors to buy bitcoin, and hence 'speculating' in a healthy manner is because of considering it as a decentralized-anthropo-resilient-cryptographically-secured-safe-haven.. not because it allows coffee tipping et al. (which it will never on a global scale anyway).


but for the more common use, i am confident new layers, new on-top innovations, new companies etc, or even altcoins will emerge to catch up with the new needs as they come, and allow solutions that are more practical for the average user.

and they surely will benefit from bitcoin as well, as it wont be that same debased over printed paper that the FED is feeding the rest of the world.
bitcoin's mass and core capacity has to be rock solid and not subject to any human consideration to prevent all the abuses we are currently witnessing in the financial world.

of course there would always be scams, etc.. but this you just cant fight it.
just look at all the passed drama in bitcoin's relatively young history.

[johnyj]

OP is right, many people buying bitcoin because they are investing in a promise: A promise of never increased money supply and decentralized censorship resistance

Most of the people are used to listen to authorities and do not realize that in bitcoin there is no authorities, you are the authority to decide what you use regardless what anyone else think

For example, imagine that Chinese government took over most of the mining farms in china and controlled 70% of network hash power, made their fork and created client bitcoin BJ (BJ stands for BeiJing), with their party leader deciding the future coin generation scheme. What will happen?

No one will use their fork, no merchant will accpet that client, coins on that chain would worth nothing, those hash power working on that chain would just be wasted electricity. This is simply because it broke those 2 most important promise of bitcoin: limited money supply and decentralized censorship resistance. I believe, without these 2 promise, 99% of the user will leave bitcoin

So, this censorship resistance is not achieved through physical hashpower(In this case you can't fight against BJ coin since it has majority of hash power), but through a consensus. Anything that brake this consensus is automatically excluded out of the current bitcoin ecosystem. Of course those hash power could harm the network if they attack, but the damage is limited: Anyone who hold his coin will not be affected by attack

[johnyj]

And this has been discussed hundreds of times, even bitcoin can process millions of transactions per second, people would still spend inflative fiat money and save deflative bitcoin, this is a no-brainer: you always first spend something that drops in value long term wise.

There might be a day that fiat money totally disappeared and only bitcoin is used for transaction, but that is highly unlikely because majority of human are getting used to trusting authorities, the existence of authorities makes them feel safe

[bieberluvr]

The smart things for Governments to do would be to buy large numbers of them, so they have "control."  If the US Government bought 20 million of them, then they would be able to dictate the value of the other 1million.  Wouldn't that essentially turn it into fiat?

[fr4nkthetank]

There is little value in bitcoin, as there is similar and (even better, as in confirmation times, etc) in other altcoins.  BUT, there is value in a brand, and bitcoin is a brand.  so it score points there.  Also a lot of btc people are really greedy and ambitious human beings, so theres that too.

So value = demand and offer, as everything.  buy low sell high.  what is low ?  a period of calm, low prices relative to previous highs...and then wait for the next pump

[Cconvert2G36]

Real value is utility.

Scarcity only matters if there is demand.

More utility leads to more demand, by more users. This idea that just tucking away some private keys, using Bitcoin once a year... and thinking noobs will just continue to pay more for your bags is delusional.

The people that really cared about digital, uncensorable wealth storage are already "in". Those who aren't "in" see a distinct road block to further adoption and use in the 3 TPS artificial limit.

Censorship resistance and decentralization are very important, but it doesn't mean we should just become complacent about the competition. Open source software does not hold an esteemed position on the periodic table. Here's to hoping we buy some time for layer 2 scaling solutions with some modest scaling of the max tx capacity of the network.

[punter1]

price is equal proportion of trade and loss,one cannot get profit if there is no loss. go keep rolling btc

[RealBitcoin]

Definitely, there is some social engineering at work: FUD, coordinated hackings, sabotage, opinion manipulation, etc...

Bitcoin is under siege, but not the network itself, but the user's minds that use it. The network security doesnt matter if the user's can be manipulated.

Most bitcoin users are hardcore sheeple too!

[Bud Spencer]

BTC is basically a virtual currency. It has no definate value, but can be exchanged for online payments and paypal.