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Author Topic: So, stock exchange is not allowed in usa using bitcoins?  (Read 11568 times)
justusranvier
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October 07, 2012, 10:51:53 PM
 #21

The only sane course is to assume that all Bitcoin-based businesses are illegal whether they appear to be so or not.

Even if you think it's completely lawful protect yourself by running it in a way that you'd be safe even if it was illegal.
Bitcoin Oz
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October 07, 2012, 10:58:13 PM
 #22

There were no actual registered companies on glbse. It was mostly people listing their mining rigs and other things.

The other funny part is that here were no companies that even accepted fiat it was mostly mining operations.

I doubt any glbse "companies" actually listed any of their glbse shareholders on a shareholder register.

At least in Australia a pty ltd company needs to have a share register somewhere. Since you didnt know who owned your shares at any time on glbse there was no way to keep that register thus to list you are probably breaking at least some company laws.

becoin
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October 07, 2012, 11:12:27 PM
 #23

Even if it was just a payment processing protocol, payment processing is subject to regulation.  So are commodities.  So is stored value. 
Wrong. Let me address point by point.

Every object in this Universe is a stored value. Because every object that exists has some value. Stored value concept is flawed.

If they treat bitcoin as commodity then they should treat bitcoin stock exchange as barter exchange!

Bitcoin is not a payment processing protocol. If it is then every message or email sent is a payment and is subject to monetary regulation!?

Bitcoin is not money. Bitcoin network is a system for announcing trust relations between people. One bitcoin is a standard measure for trust on this network. By assigning 2 standard measures of trust to Bob's public key and 1 standard measure of trust to Carol's public key, via the block chain Alice announces to the world that in this particular moment she trusts Bob twice as much than Carol. Nowhere in the world to my best knowledge trust relations between people are taxable or subject to monetary regulations!

repentance
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October 07, 2012, 11:23:54 PM
 #24

There were no actual registered companies on glbse. It was mostly people listing their mining rigs and other things.

The other funny part is that here were no companies that even accepted fiat it was mostly mining operations.

I doubt any glbse "companies" actually listed any of their glbse shareholders on a shareholder register.

At least in Australia a pty ltd company needs to have a share register somewhere. Since you didnt know who owned your shares at any time on glbse there was no way to keep that register thus to list you are probably breaking at least some company laws.


Not just Pty Ltds (who have to give ASIC details related to share-holdings).  Ltd companies have to maintain a share registry which can be inspected by the public and organisations which have members (such as unions and non-profits) have to maintain records of membership.

At law, regardless of how many Bitcoin enterprises have styled themselves in an effort to make themselves sound legitimate, most of them are either sole traders or simple partnerships - meaning that the business has no separate legal existence from its owners and that they have full personal liability in respect of its activities.

It's even possible that by using language which has a specific legal meaning to inaccurately describe their operations, some Bitcoin enterprises have intentionally misled their users in a manner which is an offence in and of itself.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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October 07, 2012, 11:25:41 PM
 #25

Even if it was just a payment processing protocol, payment processing is subject to regulation.  So are commodities.  So is stored value.  
Wrong. Let me address point by point.

Every object in this Universe is a stored value. Because every object that exists has some value. Stored value concept is flawed.

If they treat bitcoin as commodity then they should treat bitcoin stock exchange as barter exchange!

Bitcoin is not a payment processing protocol. If it is then every message or email sent is a payment and is subject to monetary regulation!?

Bitcoin is not money. Bitcoin network is a system for announcing trust relations between people. One bitcoin is a standard measure for trust on this network. By assigning 2 standard measures of trust to Bob's public key and 1 standard measure of trust to Carol's public key, via the block chain Alice announces to the world that in this particular moment she trusts Bob twice as much than Carol. Nowhere in the world to my best knowledge trust relations between people are taxable or subject to monetary regulations!

Thank you for your compelling legal argument.  The first entity which gets dragged into court over Bitcoin should hire you to represent them.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
becoin
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October 07, 2012, 11:35:34 PM
 #26

The only sane course is to assume that all Bitcoin-based businesses are illegal whether they appear to be so or not.
I'm afraid, all boils down to that at the end of the day. All goes as I've predicted 1 year ago. First they will try to put you in the existing legal framework and label all your tools and activities under already well established labels. Then they will try to create new laws and regulations. Don't allow them to label you under existing labels that are grossly misleading. Let them create new regulations if they can!
Puppet
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October 08, 2012, 07:13:19 AM
 #27

Becoin, you should start another silk road, perhaps one that doesnt require tor. Since payments will be processed with bitcoin and not "money", you wouldnt be selling anything and surely regulations wont apply, right?

For the nth time, bitcoin has nothing to do with it.  Swapping assets on GLBSE,  a transaction that doesnt even involve bitcoins (let alone fiat) would be subject to regulation, because the assets are securities, and therefore subject to regulation.
becoin
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October 08, 2012, 08:02:49 AM
 #28

Becoin, you should start another silk road, perhaps one that doesnt require tor. Since payments will be processed with bitcoin and not "money", you wouldnt be selling anything and surely regulations wont apply, right?
Puppet, silk road must apply regulation because they sell drugs, not because they sell what they sell against bitcoins! Bitcoin is just a tool! You can regulate the usage of a tool, not the tool itself! Knifes are dangerous because they are very useful to criminals if they kill people. Does that mean we should apply extra regulation to all knife manufacturers? The bureaucrat's dream - Regulation after regulation after regulation after regulation after regulation...

Swapping assets on GLBSE,  a transaction that doesnt even involve bitcoins (let alone fiat) would be subject to regulation, because the assets are securities, and therefore subject to regulation.
Transactions on GLBSE DO involve bitcoins! Would you care to explain why every asset priced in bitcoins is a security?

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October 08, 2012, 08:26:10 AM
 #29

Puppet, silk road must apply regulation because they sell drugs, not because they sell what they sell against bitcoins!

Thats my point exactly. The same goes for GLBSE.

Quote
Transactions on GLBSE DO involve bitcoins! Would you care to explain why every asset priced in bitcoins is a security?

I posted that a million times already:

 The term ‘‘security’’ means any note, stock, treasury
stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture,
evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation
in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate,
preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share,
investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of de-
posit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or
other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege
on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of secu-
rities (including any interest therein or based on the value
thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered
into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign cur-
rency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly
known as a ‘‘security’’, or any certificate of interest or partici-
pation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guar-
antee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any
of the foregoing.


The term ‘‘sale’’ or ‘‘sell’’ shall include every contract of
sale or disposition of a security or interest in a security, for
value. The term ‘‘offer to sell’’, ‘‘offer for sale’’, or ‘‘offer’’ shall
include every attempt or offer to dispose of, or solicitation of
an offer to buy, a security or interest in a security, for value.

www.sec.gov/about/laws/sa33.pdf

As for legal interpretation:

The definition for each of these securities is either listed in the Act under A.R.S. Section 44-1801 or provided by judicial interpretations and tests.[8] In determining whether a certain instrument is a security, a court will consider the substance rather than the form of the instrument.[9] “Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”[10]
http://www.mitchell-attorneys.com/legal-articles/securities-registration-and-exemption/
becoin
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October 08, 2012, 09:08:02 AM
 #30

Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”
Investors on a bitcoin stock exchange DO NOT MAKE MONEY! They make bitcoins. Bitcoin is not money! ONLY if they sell their bitcoin assets against dollars will they make money.
Puppet
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October 08, 2012, 09:30:10 AM
 #31

Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”
Investors on a bitcoin stock exchange DO NOT MAKE MONEY! They make bitcoins. Bitcoin is not money! ONLY if they sell their bitcoin assets against dollars will they make money.

Sigh.
The law itself doesnt even mention money. It doesnt appear anywhere in the definition of a security (spare me the comment on the foreign currency exchange which is explicitly mentioned).
As for selling securities, it doesnt mention money in that definition either, It mentions trading the security for VALUE. I even bolded it for you.
Is your point that bitcoins have no value?
#machinist
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October 08, 2012, 09:31:45 AM
 #32


The way GLBSE went about it was just asinine.  It was just anonymous to bring in every scammer, huckster, and conman on the planet while just public enough to ensure that eventually it would bring the attention of an entity like the SEC.


HAIL to that!
becoin
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October 08, 2012, 09:43:07 AM
 #33

The law itself doesnt even mention money. It doesnt appear anywhere in the definition of a security.

The law itself doesn't even mention bitcoin. Bitcoin assets do not appear in the definition of a security. Case closed.

As for selling securities, it doesnt mention money in that definition either, It mentions trading the security for VALUE. I even bolded it for you. Is your point that bitcoins have no value?
Look around you and tell me at least one thing that has no value? Why is bitcoin value so special to you?
Bitcoin Oz
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October 08, 2012, 09:47:46 AM
 #34

Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”
Investors on a bitcoin stock exchange DO NOT MAKE MONEY! They make bitcoins. Bitcoin is not money! ONLY if they sell their bitcoin assets against dollars will they make money.

Sigh.
The law itself doesnt even mention money. It doesnt appear anywhere in the definition of a security (spare me the comment on the foreign currency exchange which is explicitly mentioned).
As for selling securities, it doesnt mention money in that definition either, It mentions trading the security for VALUE. I even bolded it for you.
Is your point that bitcoins have no value?

Do gpg emails have value ?

Puppet
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October 08, 2012, 10:20:26 AM
 #35

The law itself doesn't even mention bitcoin.

Nor does it mention gold, electrical power or corn. It doesnt even mention Euros or dollars, or anything really. Therefore, securities dont exist?

Quote
Bitcoin assets do not appear in the definition of a security. Case closed.

You are an idiot; that case is definitely closed.
becoin
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October 08, 2012, 10:51:17 AM
 #36

You are an idiot;
Yeah, this is a solid argument. Good luck SEC regulating every server in every jurisdiction on this planet that transfers messages signed with private keys!
Mike Hearn
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October 08, 2012, 11:05:03 AM
 #37

becoin, the only question you have to ask is "What would a judge think?". The law is not a program. It is not an algorithm you can find security holes in to hack your way through it.

A judge would clearly believe Bitcoins have value, as would any reasonable man after seeing MtGox, so securities laws would apply if you issued shares denominated in BTC. End of story. Even if you strongly disagree with this please don't go on posting because there is really no ambiguity here - your interpretation of the law is wrong and the other posters are correct.

Quote
Of course one thing which we've seen happen with Bitcoin businesses is them starting out handling small amounts of other people's funds and eventually handling large amounts.

Yes, this is a problem not just from a legal perspective but also because it's insecure. Over time I'm hoping some of the services such companies provide migrate to P2P networks so the security and legal issues go away. Of course eliminating the centralized marketplace/exchange doesn't mean the participants suddenly become unregulated.

The only solution for that is to put pressure on politicians and regulators to reform the laws so they scale down appropriately. It's easier if you can show a thriving marketplace that's clearly A Good Thing(tm) but is in a legal grey area.
becoin
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October 08, 2012, 11:43:52 AM
 #38

A judge would clearly believe Bitcoins have value, as would any reasonable man after seeing MtGox, so securities laws would apply if you issued shares denominated in BTC. End of story.
Did I say bitcoin has no value? Where? Of course, they have value. So does everything that is surrounding us has value for somebody. Does that mean security laws apply for everything that is surrounding us?

So does my email signed with my private key has value. But... not for the judge! As the judge doesn't have the public key to unlock it! End of story.
JoelKatz
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October 08, 2012, 11:45:44 AM
 #39

Bitcoin doesn't "magic" away laws simply because ... Bitcoin.
It does! Bitcoin is not money. A stock exchange that doesn't deal with money shouldn't be regulated by the government.
The regulation comes from issuing and trading securities. It has nothing to do with what the securities are exchanged *for*.


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October 08, 2012, 11:54:26 AM
 #40

We are "paper-people" trading with "paper-money" governed by "paper-laws" in a "paper-world".
Bitcoin comes and lights the match!
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