Should Bitmain make a Q7?

[fullzero]

I have an S5+.  It is badass, the S7 will be even more badass.  

However; the S5+ is loud and the S7 will be loud.  

Edit:

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You can software control the S7 fan speed 

Thank you Bitmain!

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This is fine for prosumer miners ( those who have basements and garages, or co-location, or who make custom mining rooms / sheds / buildings ).

But there is another huge market in the USA and many other countries; supplemental heat.  Winter is coming, and the S7 will be just too damn fucking loud.  

A miner that uses 180 watt max per heat sink (150 optimal) in an S1/S3/S5 design ( no need for the S3 metal casing; good job with the S5) would be amazing.  Space heaters are sold in the USA.  A Q7 could most likely compete with the cost of oil or propane heat in New England, USA.  If you made this, I would push it 100% in New England, USA.

I am willing to bet that most USA home miners would be willing to pay a 15% premium to have a quiet miner.  

I think this is worth your attention Bitmain.

Please, please make a Q7.

Fellow miners please petition your support.

-fullzero

[pekatete]

Smack on the head there! 2 boards (even with fewer chips) in the same form-factor would be lower priced (though premiumed as per S7) and there would be a fair bit of demand for such, not just in the US, but in most temperate regions (even tropical!) from home miners.

[TheRealSteve]

In lieu of Bitmain doing this themselves, GekkoScience are planning something in the S1/S3 style as long as they can be supplied with chips.  See the last few pages (as of this writing) of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=995675 and/or https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1158807.0

[fullzero]

As much as I will support sidehack ( I will buy some of all his creations ); He cannot produce in the quantity I am asking. 

How many S3's do you think exist? 

I applaud and support sidehack 100%; he is of merit.  However, I do not believe he has the capacity to address my concern.

[sidehack]

How many do you want? If we can get money for a full batch of chips, and the batch size is the same as BM1384, that's enough boards to outfit over 1600 S3 right there.

It'd be nice if Bitmain didn't abandon the S1/3 customer base, since they were about the only ones left servicing them and they are definitely able to produce the machines in whatever quantities they want.

[fullzero]

That is outstanding commitment! 

I would be willing to front for a lot.

I am worried that Bitmain will not give you samples; or may delay selling you chips in the time frame to make this effective for this winter.  How many do you think you could produce in a month if Bitmain was in full cooperation?

[sidehack]

I want to have BM1384 prototypes of 4-chip pod and 30-chip S1 before the end of September. BM1385 prototypes within two weeks of sample chip delivery. A factory order of chips from Bitmain would probably take two months for delivery. In that time I could get a full stock of PCBs and all components. Once chips arrive production would start immediately. Probably run out the full batch inside two weeks.

Estimated material cost for start-to-finish would be about half a million dollars per batch. That's a butt-ton of money and it all hinges on Bitmain and sample chips. It also hinges on having a working design, which right now is merely "in progress". Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[notlist3d]

I don't think they will be making a Q7.  I think quiet miners anymore are mods when it comes to bitmain.  They just do not make a quiet miner.

I do find it interesting how many PCIe cables on the S7.  Seems like a good way to sell their PSU with many of them.   Seems like a business decision there.

[Beefcake]

I think a q model would be popular.  The s7 upon first glance seems to be targeted towards larger mining operations.  I think if bitmain made a smaller device like the old u3, that is a much smaller form factor with the new chips, I believe this device would be wildly popular.  Especially if you did not need a special psu to run it.

But I get the impression that bitmain will have no trouble moving the new s7 units, so I can understand that they would want to focus on the most profitable option available to them.

[fullzero]

I am impressed you could run a full batch in 2 weeks: 

I am aware everything takes longer than expected.

This is the primary reason I am raising this issue to Bitmain; they should be able to do this by mid November if they want.  I understand they will probably ignore me; but I want them to understand. 

Looking forward there are no huge performance gains; no more violation of Moore's law.  They can be the sole providers of a market if they want.  It is up to them.

[RichBC]

I think with the S5+ monster and the S7 using the same 3 card chassis and controller with provision for 9 Hash boards, combined with the lack of an S6 and we have seen the way forward as being very high density modules, based on a single hash board design for single unit and 3 unit rack type units. Entirely geared towards Farms, with an S7+ and 14.58TH/S is the next logical step.

I also think that the full custom 28nM BM1385 may not be beaten by a semi custom 16nM chip and so the BM1386 will also need to be full custom. They are however now up the learning curve for full custom design and are a good step ahead of the competition, so will probably be in a position to release this at a moment of their choosing.

Bottom line is I think from a Bitmain point of view the days of supporting the Home Miner are over. Our best bet is a sidehack BM1385 design or what I posted in the S7 thread.

If I had the money what I would love to do is buy 2 S7. Take out the middle Hash boards and make a 3rd 2 Board S7. Needs confirmation that the unit will work with an S5 Controller board (The picture actually shows an S5+ controller & we know that an S5 Controller works with an S5+) We then have a 3.24TH/S, 860W S7- for 5.5BTC.  A very nice unit, ideally suited to a 1200W PSU and home use.  

Rich

[notlist3d]

I think with the S5+ monster and the S7 using the same 3 card chassis and controller with provision for 9 Hash boards, combined with the lack of an S6 and we have seen the way forward as being very high density modules, based on a single hash board design for single unit and 3 unit rack type units. Entirely geared towards Farms, with an S7+ and 14.58TH/S is the next logical step.

I also think that the full custom 28nM BM1385 may not be beaten by a semi custom 16nM chip and so the BM1386 will also need to be full custom. They are however now up the learning curve for full custom design and are a good step ahead of the competition, so will probably be in a position to release this at a moment of their choosing.

Bottom line is I think from a Bitmain point of view the days of supporting the Home Miner are over. Our best bet is a sidehack BM1385 design or what I posted in the S7 thread.

Rich

I think for better or worse high density gear is where the market is going.   I don't see them backing down from this design at this point, I was surprised they launched with the density they did on S7 but I don't think there is a turning back point.

To mine you really are going to have to gear twords 240 on a lot of gear I think at this point.  The ones who mined in apartment's are sadly going to be left behind.  You really will need to own the property so you can make the electrical changes to run gear.   I would be mad if I did not have options, but I am lucky I do.   

We will see a S7+ (or S8) in not to long I predict with 3 of these being so easy to slap together and also controller looks like it's geared twords it already.

[Meech]

Some of us would prefer a smaller design but of course I'm sure that is already in the works.  If Sidehack scores some of these chips we could see one by x-mas hopefully.

[MinerNetwork]

There is no Q7, but there will be a S6

[QuintLeo]

I doubt Bitmain has a "smaller" varient on the S7 in the works.

 A 2 string per board design would run more like 270 watts per board, which is what many of us EXPECTED the S7 to be - 2 strings 2 boards like the S5 but 18 chips per string instead of 15.


 The plan to create and sell an S7+ is obvious, given the S5+ was apparently intended in part as a "prototype" style design using their older gen chips.
 Trivial design to do this time around, the design work appears to have already been done.


 It seems that Innosilicon's A3 will be in the same ballpark as the BM1385 - probably about .2 watts / GH at the chip level .26 at the system level, based on what I've seen out of them and Lketc - none of those figures are definite before working hardware shows up though and I might be misinterpreting the figures I HAVE seen.
 It's hard to understand some of those websites when I don't read Chinese. 


 I am starting to doubt we'll see an S8 design, Bitmain seems to have gotten tired of dealing with "internal power supply" issues, and the S5+ sold out fast enough despite the widespread assumption (since demonstrated to be almost definitely TRUE based on the S7 announced sale availability date) that the S7 was probably already in production for internal Bitmain/Hashnest usage when the S5+ was announced.

 I also suspect there will be a U4 as an attempt to fill the "home miner / quiet miner" niche.
 I'm not betting on it being a pod design, but I'm not betting against it either.
 I would NOT be shocked at something close to the form factor of that 100ish GH Rockerbox model, Bitmain could probably fit a single-string miner into that size board.

Looking forward there are no huge performance gains

 14/16nm full custom should be able to get at least double the efficiency of 28nm full custom.
 Possibly more, though it appears that quantum effects are making the gains noticeably smaller than JUST the size of the gates would indicate (in theory, if nothing else caused issues, half the size of the gate features should equal half the voltage and a quarter the power, but quantum effects haven't allowed that for a few generations).
 THAT is likely to be the last "big gain" for a few years though, as that will bring Cryptocoin mining chips up to the "state of the art".


 I suspect Bitmain will skip anyting other than "full custom" on their announced "working on" next generation chip.
 I also suspect that chip won't show up before the halfing next year, and might not arrive before end of the year timeframe in 2016.

[mavericklm]

''home'' mining is dead!

quiet miners are only for hobbyist, industrial mining age is here!

[QuintLeo]

The age of industrial mining goes back years. Nothing new there.

 8-(

[mavericklm]

i mean for bitmain
other cases: bitfurry, spondoolies...

[fullzero]

Looking forward there are no huge performance gains

 14/16nm full custom should be able to get at least double the efficiency of 28nm full custom.
 Possibly more, though it appears that quantum effects are making the gains noticeably smaller than JUST the size of the gates would indicate (in theory, if nothing else caused issues, half the size of the gate features should equal half the voltage and a quarter the power, but quantum effects haven't allowed that for a few generations).
 THAT is likely to be the last "big gain" for a few years though, as that will bring Cryptocoin mining chips up to the "state of the art".

 I suspect Bitmain will skip anyting other than "full custom" on their announced "working on" next generation chip.
 I also suspect that chip won't show up before the halfing next year, and might not arrive before end of the year timeframe in 2016.

Look at the CPU stats for your CPU.  Look at the GPU stats for your GPU.  Consider what "State of the Art" means.  If a company can make a 14 or 16 nm chip but the production costs are orders of magnitude higher; this is not a desirable option unless it is cost effective. 

When Bitcoin Application Specific Integrated Circuits first began to appear there where many chip manufacturers.  This was due to the huge profit margin to be had.  That is long gone; we are in the plateau.  I do think network difficulty will increase with each new generation of miners; but not like it did in 2013 and 2014.  Probably somewhere around 100 PH per generation; with old miner deactivation trailing that increase.

The normal profit model for Bitcoin ASIC has been dependent on the ability to use older tech to make comparatively cheap chips for their mining value.  This was possible because of both a high BTC exchange rate and the disparity between chips a company can cost effectively make and their relative efficiency to those already in existence.  This disparity is what enabled the violation of Moore's law.  The closing of this gap occurred in 2014.  The relative depression of BTC exchange rate in 2015 is why you are only now seeing new 28 nm chips being sold.  I don't believe Bitmain can double efficiency again with a 28 nm chip ( hats off to them if they can ).  Unless the BTC exchange rate goes up significantly I don't believe it is cost effective to produce a 14 or 16 nm asic. 

KnC and Bitfury may roi with their own because they have been mining with them longer; but maybe not.  I think both of them are more interested in becoming the visa and mastercard of the future via new sidechains and XT add ins.  Mining pools will be not only the payment processors of the future; but "processors" in markets that do not currently exist.

[sidehack]

As long as those "add-ins" and such don't glut the works with a berjillion zero-fee microtransactions and hose up the whole system.

I wonder that so many folks are intending to skip 20/22nm and go straight to 14/16. Apparently it's not much more difficult to make 14 than 20 (both have the same kinds of problems compared to 28) but practical performance gains at 14 aren't much better and the chip yields are dismal because processes are still very immature.

So, how 'bout them Q7 eh?