Is escrowing for yourself using a secret alt OK?

[RoughLyfe]

The answer is obviously no,the very definition of escrow is this

Notice how it says Third party which means the following

Key words being, a person ASIDE the two primary involved in a situation

[DebitMe]

The idea of escrow is that it is a 3rd party.  It is completely meaningless to call it escrow when a trusted 3rd party is not present, and it is deceitful and wrong to hide that you are the person providing escrow for yourself if you are.

[BayAreaCoins]

The risks are exactly the same as if you do a direct trade. However if there is some kind of communication misunderstanding, and you did not clarify these details (as an escrow) then your reputation will be permanently damaged because you did not create a safe trading environment.

If you are doing a direct trade and there is a communication issue, then the answer is "sorry" and your reputation may or may not be affected based on your ability to weasel your way out of the situation.

Manipulating people into believing that they have paid an unbiased third party to protect them during their trade and it really being you is sketchy as FUCK.

Do you think that is all that different from choosing someone you are close friends with as an escrow? Do you think that it might be difficult for an escrow to be 100% unbiased if you are close friends with the escrow? My understanding is that you are close with Salty, and I see that you suggested using him as escrow here.

It is also my understanding that you are close to MRKLYE, to the point that (if my memory serves me right) you left a negative rating against someone who was harassing him. However he is offering your escrow services here.

There is not a 1:1 comparison between these scenarios and escrowing your own deal, however they are very similar. Additionally, it is possible that the person you are trading with may not know you are close.

I absolutely trust Salty.  He's a fuck of a guy and I do not believe he would let our friendship get in between a business deal.  I honestly try to make his helping as easy as possible by documenting everything just as if he hates my guts.

KYLE is my sweet sweet bb.  When I do a escrow for him I only think of it as Party A and Party B.  There is no KYLE in my train of thought as far as business goes.  He fully understands that and respects my ability to make sure everyone is satisfied.  KYLE may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but he isn't dumb enough to try any funny shit with me as escrow because that shit would not fly!

[Quickseller]

The risks are exactly the same as if you do a direct trade. However if there is some kind of communication misunderstanding, and you did not clarify these details (as an escrow) then your reputation will be permanently damaged because you did not create a safe trading environment.

If you are doing a direct trade and there is a communication issue, then the answer is "sorry" and your reputation may or may not be affected based on your ability to weasel your way out of the situation.

Manipulating people into believing that they have paid an unbiased third party to protect them during their trade and it really being you is sketchy as FUCK.

Do you think that is all that different from choosing someone you are close friends with as an escrow? Do you think that it might be difficult for an escrow to be 100% unbiased if you are close friends with the escrow? My understanding is that you are close with Salty, and I see that you suggested using him as escrow here.

It is also my understanding that you are close to MRKLYE, to the point that (if my memory serves me right) you left a negative rating against someone who was harassing him. However he is offering your escrow services here.

There is not a 1:1 comparison between these scenarios and escrowing your own deal, however they are very similar. Additionally, it is possible that the person you are trading with may not know you are close.

I absolutely trust Salty.  He's a fuck of a guy and I do not believe he would let our friendship get in between a business deal.  I honestly try to make his helping as easy as possible by documenting everything just as if he hates my guts.

KYLE is my sweet sweet bb.  When I do a escrow for him I only think of it as Party A and Party B.  There is no KYLE in my train of thought as far as business goes.  He fully understands that and respects my ability to make sure everyone is satisfied.  KYLE may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but he isn't dumb enough to try any funny shit with me as escrow because that shit would not fly!

I am not saying that Salty would side with you simply because of your friendship, and the same goes for you and KYLE, but I think the principle is the same. I am not going to try to scam by acting as escrow with one of my alts, just like Salty is not going to scam by colluding with you to steal from me when I want to buy some coins for charity. However the potential of conflict of interest is there.

Now this is obviously not actually the case in any of the relevant scenarios, but what if you are escrowing for someone who actually is your roommate/sister/has an even closer personal relationship? There would still be a potential conflict of interest, however it would still be two separate people.

[michietn94]

No, IMO
Escrow means there will be 3 people minimal that involve on the process. If escrow just being made less than 3 , I think there will be some hidden purpose for doing that and mostly will be used for something bad. ( as far as I learn how life work )

[Decoded]

NOT OK

those users (Tomatocage and Quickseller) that are in the hot seat are just abusing the system to make money

1. Sell/Buy something using their alt account
2. Use their main account as escrow
3. They take escrow fees
4. They give positive feedback for their alt account because of that abusive trade
5. They recieve positive feedback saying "used [name] as escrow, very trusted"
6. *Sell their alt account with much higher price because of the green trust
7. MONEY MONEY MONEY for the so-called scam busters of the forum

i believe those users dont deserve being in the default trust list, they are only abusing the system! IMHO


*possibly the buyer will initiate scam attempt using the account with green trust to scam people here

[BitcoinBoss666]

NOT OK

those users (Tomatocage and Quickseller) that are in the hot seat are just abusing the system to make money

1. Sell/Buy something using their alt account
2. Use their main account as escrow
3. They take escrow fees
4. They give positive feedback for their alt account because of that abusive trade
5. They recieve positive feedback saying "used [name] as escrow, very trusted"
6. *Sell their alt account with much higher price because of the green trust
7. MONEY MONEY MONEY for the so-called scam busters of the forum

i believe those users dont deserve being in the default trust list, they are only abusing the system! IMHO


*possibly the buyer will initiate scam attempt using the account with green trust to scam people here

True they should get ban... Tomatocage abusing trust system too.

[Hazelnut]

I'm pretty sure 'No' is going to win. It's clear it's better for it to be a third party.
Probably we should include in the discussion how bad it is and whether it deserves negative trust.

Personally I'm convinced it's bad and would definitely not use an escrow known to have that behavior, but I wouldn't say he's a scammer and therefore I don't think a negative feedback is deserved [more].

You were convinced it was wrong behavior, but as soon as you saw TC doing it you changed your opinion rather than neg him. Way to show a backbone.

[Decoded]

NOT OK

those users (Tomatocage and Quickseller) that are in the hot seat are just abusing the system to make money

1. Sell/Buy something using their alt account
2. Use their main account as escrow
3. They take escrow fees
4. They give positive feedback for their alt account because of that abusive trade
5. They recieve positive feedback saying "used [name] as escrow, very trusted"
6. *Sell their alt account with much higher price because of the green trust
7. MONEY MONEY MONEY for the so-called scam busters of the forum

i believe those users dont deserve being in the default trust list, they are only abusing the system! IMHO


*possibly the buyer will initiate scam attempt using the account with green trust to scam people here

True they should get ban... Tomatocage abusing trust system too.

not ban i think, but they should be removed from DT because of what they are doing

[koshgel]

Definitely NOT okay.

Third party is the entire point of escrow. Without a middleman, it's not an escrow. You might as well trade straight up without the 1% fee or whatever.

[Sourgummies]

We can twist this and turn this but it still comes out looking bad for the nameless parties. Least I wish to not mention them in my post because I have only seen one some what admit they do this practice.
For some one that is active in outing scammers I always expect that person to be held to a higher standard for those that are new or wanting to follow in the footsteps,to have something to follow. In this case we have some one duping one side of the party into escrow knowing that they are the escrow. This may make things smoother and faster for the accused but it is dirty for many reasons.
One being that the person is using escrow most of the time because they are uneasy. If they knew escrow was in fact accused,they would back out 9/10 times.
It looks suspect and it is pretty crooked to think that its going to fly. Its a con game simple and plain,you are using misdirection.
The other aspect and more important in my eye,not that the latter was less so,is this member is a person that is quite active in handing out neg rep.
This is fine but combined with the knowledge of using a alt account to make fake escrows,makes you question all the neg reps given by this person.
Are they doing it to shut out competition under the guise of finding cheats/scammers and such! It really pulls this member out of the shadows and questions their true intent.

Any way you cut this up,the optics are bad. I hope this practice is dealt with and we maybe find a way to make sure people are not using alts in the future.

My opinion,not looking for beef or hoping to cut down opposition. Its dirty and needs to be nipped.


edit: Missed the part about taking fees for escrow,this is really bad and that whole section needs more scrutiny obviously.

[tspacepilot]

Clearly it's dishonest to pretend to offer an "escrow" for a trade when it's really you trading.  Any honest person would simply choose another escrow in that situation in order to follow an ethical principal.  I do have two replies for quickseller tho:

The risks are exactly the same as if you do a direct trade. However if there is some kind of communication misunderstanding, and you did not clarify these details (as an escrow) then your reputation will be permanently damaged because you did not create a safe trading environment.

If you are doing a direct trade and there is a communication issue, then the answer is "sorry" and your reputation may or may not be affected based on your ability to weasel your way out of the situation.

Here QS shows an inability to look at more than one side of the scenario.  As escrow/trader, he says "self-escrow is just like not having an escrow, I manage the extra risk and pocket the fee".  He seems to fail to see that the other party is paying for the service of a third party and isn't getting it.  He only considers scenarios in which he's right and knows all the pieces, so he can't seem to imagine that someone might have a valid dispute with him, he can't see the value of the third party for the other person because he knows he's always right.  I love how he characterizes a "communication issue" in terms of someone else's ability to weasel out of a situation.  It's impossible for him to consider scenarios in which the other party actually might have a point.

Do you think that is all that different from choosing someone you are close friends with as an escrow? Do you think that it might be difficult for an escrow to be 100% unbiased if you are close friends with the escrow? My understanding is that you are close with Salty, and I see that you suggested using him as escrow here.

It is also my understanding that you are close to MRKLYE, to the point that (if my memory serves me right) you left a negative rating against someone who was harassing him. However he is offering your escrow services here.

There is not a 1:1 comparison between these scenarios and escrowing your own deal, however they are very similar. Additionally, it is possible that the person you are trading with may not know you are close.

Here QS actualy has an interesting and valid point.  The poll asks us about self-escrow and we all cry "no! it needs to be a neutral, third party".  QS says, not all third parties are neutral, and he has a point.  To be fair to QS's point, I believe that ethical escrows probably ought to avoid escrowing for their friends, or at the very minimum, warn the other party about their connection to one of the parties beforehand.  If Salty is besties with BAC and will be escrowing his deal, in my opinion, Salty ought to tell BAC's trading partner, "btw, I have a long and tight friendship with BAC, I'll do my best to honor my duty as a third party here, but you should know about my connection to him".  That's merely full disclosure.  After such disclosure, the other party might say to BAC, let's use another escrow, or not, but at least they'd go into it with their eyes open.

To summarize, an escrow should be a third-party, that's a necessary, but not sufficient criterion for an ethical escrow.  In my opinion, an escrow should also be neutral and should disclose potential biases insofar as they can.  Just like a judge has to recuse themselves in a case in which they have a personal interest, escrows shouldn't be escrowing for their mother.

[favdesu]

it's absolutely not okay.

it's not ethical and cheating in my opinion. anyone caught abusing it should never do escrow again.

but again, I really like bitrated.com's system. it requires less trust and less drama/forum

[jacee]

What could possibly be someones' reason to escrow for himself other than to benefit for himself only. Ofcourse it's not ok. Let's say he's a trusted member here but if someone wants an escrow then atleast provide a legitimate one for his assurance. Don't be selfish with others.

[Lauda]

I'm definitely siding with the 'no side' on this on. The main reason for this is because it is a secret alt. This is not okay for most possible situations, however if both parties knew about this then and (probably) only then would it be okay (since both parties have to agree for this deal to go through).
If I had found out that the escrow and the buyer/seller are the same person, I would not deal with them again. Is that shady action worth a negative? I'm not sure.

[Karpeles]

If you let the other part think the escrow is not you, then at the very least you are lying and deceiving the other part, no matter the reasons one could have

Not sure if it deserves a neg trust, but this behavior should not be tolerated by default trust and escrow

[nydiacaskey01]

If you let the other part think the escrow is not you, then at the very least you are lying and deceiving the other part, no matter the reasons one could have

Not sure if it deserves a neg trust, but this behavior should not be tolerated by default trust and escrow

When the word deceiving or deception is present, it's not OK.
You can't be stand as witness of your own crime

[Wapinter]

My vote for no. I would say the escrow has to be a trusted third party.
It has nothing to do with the escrow fees - Even if the escrow is free, I would say that escrow has to be a third party.

I'm pretty sure 'No' is going to win. It's clear it's better for it to be a third party.

This poll is too insignificant for alts to get involved, but you can never be sure.  

I voted No.Escrow is all about trust.Why do we need escrow? because we want our transaction to be smooth and safe.If one of the party use alt to act escrow,it is cheating and fraud.

[BurgerKill]

I don't want to be repetitive, but I voted no. I hope that my explanation is slightly different than the others.

Why does one use escrow? Because they do not trust the other person enough to do the trade one-on-one. Then, they would use a person that they both trust to act as escrow between them.

But what if one doesn't trust the other, and uses an escrow that he thinks is trustworthy... but the escrow and the other trader are the same person? That complicates and ruins the whole idea of "escrow".

[BayAreaCoins]

Here QS actualy has an interesting and valid point.  The poll asks us about self-escrow and we all cry "no! it needs to be a neutral, third party".  QS says, not all third parties are neutral, and he has a point.  To be fair to QS's point, I believe that ethical escrows probably ought to avoid escrowing for their friends, or at the very minimum, warn the other party about their connection to one of the parties beforehand.  If Salty is besties with BAC and will be escrowing his deal, in my opinion, Salty ought to tell BAC's trading partner, "btw, I have a long and tight friendship with BAC, I'll do my best to honor my duty as a third party here, but you should know about my connection to him".  That's merely full disclosure.  After such disclosure, the other party might say to BAC, let's use another escrow, or not, but at least they'd go into it with their eyes open.

Friends don't go to great sketchy lengths to hide their friendships.  (I did refuse a picture at a conference one time, but only because I didn't want to break the ladies camera.)

If I'm recommending the escrow then of course the other party is going to know that I know them, but the people I prefer have a fucking rock solid background.  You probably don't know this and I don't want to get this thread off topic, but Salty did the escrow for MP painted as Hitler.  MP is on the Web of Trust.  WoT is a great way to cross reference trusts from here to "there".  Salt is also free... not to be a jew or anything.

Expecting disclosure from a scammer is only going to annoy the people who are honest.  People should be encouraged to do their own research, ask questions and try not to be a fuck face while you do it.