Is stealing Bitcoins illegal?

[CharlieContent]

In all honesty it seems pretty clear to me that the answer to this problem is:

"Who knows?"

[With the exceptions of the countries I mentioned in the OP]

It's incredibly hard to determine something unless a legal precedent has been established.

When a case involving the theft of Bitcoins (or a very similar digital item) goes through a court and results in a prosecution, or Bitcoins are specifically named in a piece of legislation, then we won't have a clear answer to this question.

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[Jutarul]

It's a complete list of examples and none come close to bitcoin.

Maybe we can try Florida?
(14) “Intangible property” includes, by way of illustration and not limitation:
(a) Moneys, checks, drafts, deposits, interest, dividends, and income.
(b) Credit balances, customer overpayments, security deposits and other instruments as defined by chapter 679, refunds, unpaid wages, unused airline tickets, and unidentified remittances.
(c) Stocks, and other intangible ownership interests in business associations.
(d) Moneys deposited to redeem stocks, bonds, bearer bonds, original issue discount bonds, coupons, and other securities, or to make distributions.
(e) Amounts due and payable under the terms of insurance policies.
(f) Amounts distributable from a trust or custodial fund established under a plan to provide any health, welfare, pension, vacation, severance, retirement, death, stock purchase, profit sharing, employee savings, supplemental unemployment insurance, or similar benefit.

Still nothing that comes close to bitcoin.


Your problem is you don't seem to understand that your wallet.dat is not 'filled' with bitcoins.  It's just a big long number... it's the same as someone stealing your password.  Even you should be able to see that charging someone with stealing a password is absurd.  It's the actions you take with the stolen password that matter.
So you can't STEAL bitcoins.  You can only gain unauthorized access to the network and execute actions and that's covered under standard computer law.
The real legal question is it's easy to see how someone can gain unauthorized access to a big monolithic server with a password but it would be interesting to see how the law comes down on unauthorized access to a p2p network with a private crypto key....  That's where the real legal loophole might be.

The closest thing to bitcoin is IMHO coupons, with the private key being the mechanism for redeeming them.
Now if someone steals my coupon codes is that illegal? Only if that someone redeems them. right?

[reyals]

....
Still nothing that comes close to bitcoin.


Your problem is you don't seem to understand that your wallet.dat is not 'filled' with bitcoins.  It's just a big long number... it's the same as someone stealing your password.  Even you should be able to see that charging someone with stealing a password is absurd.  It's the actions you take with the stolen password that matter.
So you can't STEAL bitcoins.  You can only gain unauthorized access to the network and execute actions and that's covered under standard computer law.
The real legal question is it's easy to see how someone can gain unauthorized access to a big monolithic server with a password but it would be interesting to see how the law comes down on unauthorized access to a p2p network with a private crypto key....  That's where the real legal loophole might be.

The closest thing to bitcoin is IMHO coupons, with the private key being the mechanism for redeeming them.
Now if someone steals my coupon codes is that legal? Only if that someone redeems them. right?

No.
Coupons represent money.  Money is real. 
Bitcoins represent bitcoins...  Bitcoins may be worth money but they represent nothing.

The closet thing to bitcoin is MMORPG gold.  In fact the only difference is the fact that MMORPGs use a server and bitcoin is over a P2P network.

[becoin]

Stealing bit coins while in New Jersey is illegal.   Not from.

Is that really different?
Stealing bitcoins while in Mudville is illegal. Stealing bitcoins while in Langley is legal... How is that different from a double standard? -cough-

And stealing bitcoins is always illegal because it likely violates the laws on unauthorized access.

I can't really understand what position you're defending?

Is stealing bitcoins illegal or not?
You can't just say - depends who is the thief? Or, depends who is the owner? This is ridiculous!

[Luke-Jr]

Coupons represent money.  Money is real. 
Bitcoins represent bitcoins...  Bitcoins may be worth money but they represent nothing.

Um, bitcoins are money.
Bitcoins also represent nothing; Just like the US dollar, Euro, Canadian dollar, Australian dollar, etc...

[becoin]

 
Bitcoins represent bitcoins...  Bitcoins may be worth money but they represent nothing.

No. Bicoin(s) represent contract(s). An agreement between the Bitcoin community and an individual who is part of this community. The rules of the community are written in the bitcoin protocol. Is that so complicated to understand?

[reyals]

The quality of the comments are really going down hill....

Stealing bit coins while in New Jersey is illegal.   Not from.

Is that really different?
Stealing bitcoins while in Mudville is illegal. Stealing bitcoins while in Langley is legal... How is that different from a double standard? -cough-

And stealing bitcoins is always illegal because it likely violates the laws on unauthorized access.

I can't really understand what position you're defending?

Is stealing bitcoins illegal or not?
You can't just say - depends who is the thief? Or, depends who is the owner? This is ridiculous!

As I've stated from my very first post

Anyway... I don't think you can really make a case for 'stealing' bitcoins since nothing has really been taken.  Now all sorts of laws aginst unauthorized access may come into play since your wallet.dat is like a cryptologic signature and using that to execute unauthorized transactions would almost certinly run afoul of such laws.

(and a few since then)
The question is not illegal vs illegal the question is theft vs some other crime.

Coupons represent money.  Money is real. 
Bitcoins represent bitcoins...  Bitcoins may be worth money but they represent nothing.

Um, bitcoins are money.
Bitcoins also represent nothing; Just like the US dollar, Euro, Canadian dollar, Australian dollar, etc...

Please go away I've already covered the money argument.

I would say that Bitcoins fall in the category of "Money".

100% NO
'Money' only comes from the government.
Sticking with Florida
UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE: GENERAL PROVISIONS

671.201 General definitions.—Unless the context otherwise requires, words or phrases defined in this section, or in the additional definitions contained in other chapters of this code which apply to particular chapters or parts thereof, have the meanings stated. Subject to definitions contained in other chapters of this code which apply to particular chapters or parts thereof, the term:
.....
(24) “Money” means a medium of exchange currently authorized or adopted by a domestic or foreign government. The term includes a monetary unit of account established by an intergovernmental organization or by agreement between two or more countries.

[reyals]

 
Bitcoins represent bitcoins...  Bitcoins may be worth money but they represent nothing.

No. Bicoin(s) represent contract(s). An agreement between the Bitcoin community and an individual who is part of this community. The rules of the community are written in the bitcoin protocol. Is that so complicated to understand?

Is that really the road you want to go down?  Because I can tell you right now breach of contract is not theft.

[becoin]

The question is not illegal vs illegal the question is theft vs some other crime.

The question is "Is stealing Bitcoins illegal?"

Definition of theft

Overview of noun theft

The noun theft has 1 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)

1. larceny, theft, thievery, thieving, stealing

(the act of taking something from someone unlawfully; "the thieving is awful at Kennedy International")

http://www.synonym.com/definition/theft/

[becoin]

The quality of the comments are really going down hill....

Ah okay, sorry for bothering you. Enjoy your little world where stealing is not thieving.

[reyals]

The question is not illegal vs illegal the question is theft vs some other crime.

The question is "Is stealing Bitcoins illegal?"

Definition of theft

Overview of noun theft

The noun theft has 1 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)

1. larceny, theft, thievery, thieving, stealing

(the act of taking something from someone unlawfully; "the thieving is awful at Kennedy International")

http://www.synonym.com/definition/theft/

Stealing bitcoins is not a crime....  but there is no way to 'steal' them without committing a crime.
IE you're not commiting theft when you take someone's bitcoins; you're commiting unauthorized computer access, you'd probably run afoul of some idenity theft laws, maybe get nailed on fraud?  Not sure would take some research.
But theft it's not.

The fundamental problem with calling it theft is you've equated bitcoins with 'real stuff' and when you've done that with out careful court rulings and defined laws you open up the door to all sorts of zany antics.

The quality of the comments are really going down hill....

Ah okay, sorry for bothering you. Enjoy your little world where stealing is not thieving.

It's not my world.  It's the real world.
I can't prove a negitive. 
You find me someone that is charged and convicted of stealing a purely digital item and then we can talk.  Bitcoin maybe 'new' but computers have been around for a while so if it really is theft you should be able to find a case for us to discuss.

[Jutarul]

Stealing bitcoins is not a crime....  but there is no way to 'steal' them without committing a crime.
IE you're not commiting theft when you take someone's bitcoins; you're commiting unauthorized computer access.

I think that pretty nailed it.

[Rudd-O]

This thread is, to my mind, the perfect example of the problems created by dogmatic belief in magical papers.  The bickering going on here about whether stealing Bitcoins is "illegal" or not according to this or that paper ("law"), is no different from the bickering going on in religious forums about whether homosexuality is a "sin" according to this or that Scriptural passage.

The real underlying questions being asked here are:

- Is taking someone's Bitcoins without his consent or under false pretesens wrong?  (Yes)
- If this were to happen to me, how would I go about recovering them?  (Spoiler alert: the men in blue costumes don't give a shit)

Discussing whether the contents of a piece of paper actually mean "stealing Bitcoins is illegal" is a waste of time that does nothing to answer the real underlying questions.

Snap out of the fantasy already, people.

[defxor]

If you can just call anything with value a good then eve online is filled with criminals yet no one has ever been arrested?

Because no one has filed charges. Feel free to be the first. To be tested are the claims over who's effectively in control (game devs or users - not an issue in Bitcoin) and whether an EULA allowing theft in-game is lawful.

(I refer to earlier posts when it comes to the definition of goods in the Netherlands and EU)

I have no idea why you want to claim that theft of bitcoins isn't theft, but I suggest you put your hypothesis to the test if you're so sure of yourself.

[CharlieContent]

This thread is, to my mind, the perfect example of the problems created by dogmatic belief in magical papers.  The bickering going on here about whether stealing Bitcoins is "illegal" or not according to this or that paper ("law"), is no different from the bickering going on in religious forums about whether homosexuality is a "sin" according to this or that Scriptural passage.

The real underlying questions being asked here are:

- Is taking someone's Bitcoins without his consent or under false pretesens wrong?  (Yes)
- If this were to happen to me, how would I go about recovering them?  (Spoiler alert: the men in blue costumes don't give a shit)

Are you out of your fucking tree? Those aren't the real underlying questions being asked. The morality of stealing Bitcoins is nothing to do with this thread.

Discussing whether the contents of a piece of paper actually mean "stealing Bitcoins is illegal" is a waste of time that does nothing to answer the real underlying questions.

This thread is about discussing whether the contents of a piece of paper actually mean "stealing Bitcoins is illegal."  If you find it a waste of time, then please don't post in this thread. Furthermore, I would suggest that you might find better uses of your time outside the legal subforum, since you don't seem to have an interest in the law.

Snap out of the fantasy already, people.

Jesus, what is wrong with you?

If you want to live in a fantasy where the law has no impact on your life, then please, go and live that fantasy elsewhere. Certainly don't come in here and accuse us of living in a fantasy for acknowledging reality, you slowly melting cum-popsicle of a man.

[CharlieContent]

I have no idea why you want to claim that theft of bitcoins isn't theft, but I suggest you put your hypothesis to the test if you're so sure of yourself.

He doesn't have to put it to the test. Hundreds of other people have done that for him. There have been hundreds, if not thousands of Bitcoin thefts over the years, amounting to millions of dollars worth of coins.

Prosecutions - 0.
Criminal charges brought - 0.
Arrests - 0.

I'd say the hypothesis was pretty well tested.

Also, I have no idea why you wish to claim with absolute certainty that Bitcoin theft would be regarded as a criminal offense by every court in the world, despite a lack of evidence for that point. You seem very passionate about this issue, to the point of being quite rude to those who disagree with you. Your passion makes me wonder if your conviction is based more on a kind of "Bitcoin zeal" rather than an intellectual conclusion that you have reached. The fact you make grandiose claims based on your assumptions (such as "Bitcoin theft would be recognized as theft by any country with a functioning legal system") makes me further question the rigor of your thought processes. Also, please forgive me if this sounds rude, but I've noticed you have problems with comprehension and a lack of critical faculties.

There are a few people on this forum who are so enamored with Bitcoin that they refuse to acknowledge has any shortcomings whatsoever, and they become irate when confronted with evidence to the contrary. From reading your post in this thread I believe you fall into this category, so there's not really much point in engaging with you. It would be like asking the Pope to consider the merits of open minded Agnosticism.

[becoin]

This thread is, to my mind, the perfect example of the problems created by dogmatic belief in magical papers. 

Yeap, reminds of the scientific discussions in "The Name of the Rose" the movie. Although I would disagree about the real underlying questions being asked here!

Where I'm from (Ireland), a very old law was uncovered recently that technically made it legal to steal bread, milk, sugar & tea, it basically says you can't be charged in court for stealing any of these.

Actually this is a good point to start from.

A man stealing a loaf of bread.
Stealing of bread is also a self defense. The thief is defending his physical health and integrity of their body because without food he will die.

Justification of the above leads to next.

A woman stealing a pair of stockings.
This is also a self defense as she is a kleptomaniac.  She is defending her mental health, because without that she will go crazy.

Justification of the above leads to next.

A nation stealing other nation resources.
This is also a self defense as this nation is trying to defend their way of life and standard of living.

Hope, now you see where all that might go?

Stealing bitcoins is not a crime....  but there is no way to 'steal' them without committing a crime.
IE you're not commiting theft when you take someone's bitcoins; you're commiting unauthorized computer access

So, a crime is not a crime unless you get caught?

Or even better... Stealing is not a crime if the thief is authorized to steal your bitcoins? Authorized by whom? By the secret court authority that authorizes authorizers to authorize the authorized thieves?

[reyals]

Stealing bitcoins is not a crime....  but there is no way to 'steal' them without committing a crime.
IE you're not commiting theft when you take someone's bitcoins; you're commiting unauthorized computer access

So, a crime is not a crime unless you get caught?

Or even better... Stealing is not a crime if the thief is authorized to steal your bitcoins? Authorized by whom? By the secret court authority that authorizes authorizers to authorize the authorized thieves?

What the heck are you going on about?
If someone hacks your game account and deletes your avatar is it murder?  No but it's still illegal because hacking is illegal.

Taking someone's bitcoins may superficially match the common usage of the word stealing, but almost no court has taken that postion and I've tried to provide clear legal reasons why.  That however doesn't negates the fact it is still a crime to do so.

[defxor]

I'd say the hypothesis was pretty well tested.

Lack of filed charges does not mean a crime hasn't been committed. No matter what type of crime.

Also, I have no idea why you wish to claim with absolute certainty that Bitcoin theft would be regarded as a criminal offense by every court in the world, despite a lack of evidence for that point.

Because of the very real court decisions I've linked to when it comes to the most similar cases available? Or maybe evidence is only evidence when it supports your opinion.

Finnish police are investigating up to 400 cases of theft, with some members reporting the loss of up to €1000 (£840) worth of virtual furniture and other items, according to Detective Sergeant Marko Levonen.

"We have done five home searches in five cities in Finland," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10207486

"The criminal judge effectively found that those poker chips were property and therefore they were capable of being stolen.

Even though the terms and conditions said they are not property, the judge found that because people put value in them they must have some sort of legal status.

Even more recently than that, the Dutch Supreme Court has recently found that when one user took away virtual items from another user without authorisation that constituted criminal theft.

So both of those cases involved the finding the virtual goods had legal status or were even property." - Jas Purewal, interactive entertainment lawyer

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3466221.htm

There's plenty of support for the opinion that Bitcoin theft would be prosecuted as theft. There's very little (none, actually) to support it wouldn't. Your rudeness aside.

[SgtSpike]

It is taking something of value that does not belong to you.  Of course it is theft!  Any judge trying to rule otherwise would be out of their mind.