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Author Topic: Is bitcoin under a spam attack?  (Read 1035 times)
adamstgBit (OP)
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September 09, 2015, 08:14:15 PM
 #1


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September 09, 2015, 08:17:12 PM
 #2

Isn't there another "stress test" today? I thought I saw something about it last week. Not that anyone asked for such a test.

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September 09, 2015, 08:17:40 PM
 #3

adamstgBit: People are redeeming outputs from the Coinwallet dust keys:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1175321.msg12373932#msg12373932

Each output = ~75,000 bytes.

I wonder if they will actually release hundreds more keys in the coming days. Hilarity may just ensue. Cheesy

Interestingly enough, the UXTO is being reduced considerably, when we thought these outputs would never be spent. Tongue

 
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September 09, 2015, 08:21:33 PM
 #4

how expensive is it to fill a block?

cheap like dirt when blocks are already full of legitimate TX

we need to push the block limit higher to make these  spam attack more expensive?

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September 09, 2015, 08:22:15 PM
 #5

I don't think it is. At this time mempool is <2mb and unconfirmed transactions at < 2000.
Interesting fact is that there are 6 blocks found in under 5 minutes, which is uncommon i believe, so maybe that helped with faster processing of transactions

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September 09, 2015, 08:22:45 PM
 #6

Related to this I believe

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1175321.0
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September 09, 2015, 08:25:05 PM
 #7

how expensive is it to fill a block?

cheap like dirt when blocks are already full of legitimate TX

we need to push the block limit higher to make these  spam attack more expensive?

Maybe we should actually address the spam itself -- nodes and miners don't have to relay spam. We can raise the default threshold in the Core client. Or we could consider a "per-dust-output" fee as suggested here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171182.0.

All with the added bonus of reducing UXTO load and therefore increasing the efficiency of all nodes.

 
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adamstgBit (OP)
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September 09, 2015, 08:29:08 PM
 #8

how expensive is it to fill a block?

cheap like dirt when blocks are already full of legitimate TX

we need to push the block limit higher to make these  spam attack more expensive?

Maybe we should actually address the spam itself -- nodes and miners don't have to relay spam. We can raise the default threshold in the Core client. Or we could consider a "per-dust-output" fee as suggested here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171182.0.

All with the added bonus of reducing UXTO load and therefore increasing the efficiency of all nodes.

sounds good.
but then the spammer might get smart and make his spam TXs undisguisable from legitimate TXs
and if the blocks are already mostly full with legitimate TXs it won't cost much to fill the remainder with solid spam.


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September 09, 2015, 08:32:03 PM
 #9

I don't think it is. At this time mempool is <2mb and unconfirmed transactions at < 2000.
Interesting fact is that there are 6 blocks found in under 5 minutes, which is uncommon i believe, so maybe that helped with faster processing of transactions
Where are you getting this information from? Only blockchain.info? Interestingly enough 2k (unconfirmed) transactions on blockchain info take around 1.6MB, but 7.3k transactions on Blocktrail 52MB. The difference is huge.

Note: This image was made 1 minute before a block was found and the post was written.

To answer your original question, there is no attack right now. There is no "test" either as the planned one was canceled due to legal pressures.


Update: Thank you for the link.

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September 09, 2015, 08:35:05 PM
 #10

how expensive is it to fill a block?

cheap like dirt when blocks are already full of legitimate TX

we need to push the block limit higher to make these  spam attack more expensive?

Maybe we should actually address the spam itself -- nodes and miners don't have to relay spam. We can raise the default threshold in the Core client. Or we could consider a "per-dust-output" fee as suggested here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171182.0.

All with the added bonus of reducing UXTO load and therefore increasing the efficiency of all nodes.

sounds good.
but then the spammer might get smart and make his spam TXs undisguisable from legitimate TXs
and if the blocks are already mostly full with legitimate TXs it won't cost much to fill the remainder with solid spam.


What is a "legitimate" transaction, then? The point here is to make it considerably more expensive to spam the network with dust outputs. If a given set of transactions are undisguisable from legitimate ones, they are legitimate, and the issue of spam has been mitigated. Consider the difference between a dust output of 0.000005 or 0.00001 and a "legitimate" (read: spendable with default fees) output of 0.0005. This is the distinction I am making.

 
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September 09, 2015, 08:38:19 PM
 #11

I don't think it is. At this time mempool is <2mb and unconfirmed transactions at < 2000.
Interesting fact is that there are 6 blocks found in under 5 minutes, which is uncommon i believe, so maybe that helped with faster processing of transactions
Where are you getting this information from? Only blockchain.info? Interestingly enough 2k (unconfirmed) transactions on blockchain info take around 1.6MB, but 7.3k transactions on Blocktrail 52MB. The difference is huge.

Note: This image was made 1 minute before a block was found and the post was written.

To answer your original question, there is no attack right now. There is no "test" either as the planned one was canceled due to legal pressures.

We can debate the definition of "attack" in this context..... the dust outputs involved in some of the original attacks are now being redeemed by the public. The transactions containing these spent outputs are approximately 75kB in size.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1175321.msg12373932#msg12373932

 
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September 09, 2015, 08:40:05 PM
 #12

how expensive is it to fill a block?

cheap like dirt when blocks are already full of legitimate TX

we need to push the block limit higher to make these  spam attack more expensive?

Maybe we should actually address the spam itself -- nodes and miners don't have to relay spam. We can raise the default threshold in the Core client. Or we could consider a "per-dust-output" fee as suggested here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171182.0.

All with the added bonus of reducing UXTO load and therefore increasing the efficiency of all nodes.

sounds good.
but then the spammer might get smart and make his spam TXs undisguisable from legitimate TXs
and if the blocks are already mostly full with legitimate TXs it won't cost much to fill the remainder with solid spam.


What is a "legitimate" transaction, then? The point here is to make it considerably more expensive to spam the network with dust outputs. If a given set of transactions are undisguisable from legitimate ones, they are legitimate, and the issue of spam has been mitigated. Consider the difference between a dust output of 0.000005 or 0.00001 and a "legitimate" (read: spendable with default fees) output of 0.0005. This is the distinction I am making.

ya thats fine, if you can easily spot is as spam or and require more fees to process spam by all means do it. shouldnt be hard to get miners to do that.

but nothing is stopping the spammer to make his spam taste better, and with the current blocklimit with blocks often full its not very expensive for the spammer so spam with good tasting spam.



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September 09, 2015, 08:56:13 PM
 #13

ya thats fine, if you can easily spot is as spam or and require more fees to process spam by all means do it. shouldnt be hard to get miners to do that.

but nothing is stopping the spammer to make his spam taste better, and with the current blocklimit with blocks often full its not very expensive for the spammer so spam with good tasting spam.

There isn't? I thought making it considerably more expensive to push spam transactions might act as a disincentive towards doing so. I don't understand this idea that "if blocks are often full (which is not true on average), it is not expensive to spam." Blocks being full doesn't make it cheaper to push transactions; quite the opposite.

 
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September 09, 2015, 08:58:28 PM
 #14

The last attack had over 20k unconfirmed transactions in mempool. The current mempool has 8500. I see the suggested fee is still 0.00006btc/kb. Still quite reasonable. The network is not under attack (yet).
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September 09, 2015, 09:05:51 PM
 #15

ya thats fine, if you can easily spot is as spam or and require more fees to process spam by all means do it. shouldnt be hard to get miners to do that.

but nothing is stopping the spammer to make his spam taste better, and with the current blocklimit with blocks often full its not very expensive for the spammer so spam with good tasting spam.

There isn't? I thought making it considerably more expensive to push spam transactions might act as a disincentive towards doing so. I don't understand this idea that "if blocks are often full (which is not true on average), it is not expensive to spam." Blocks being full doesn't make it cheaper to push transactions; quite the opposite.

cuz the spammer does not need to fill the block completely they are already half full on avg.
if block where on avg 99% full it would be cheap to spam it up so blocks are always 100% full
fee would go up and make the spam attack more expensive but not by much because spammer only really needs to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.

now imagine that blocks are 100% full all the time, how much does it cost to spam the network and create a 365day backlog? its already headed there naturally without spam, so not much!

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September 09, 2015, 09:17:11 PM
 #16

ya thats fine, if you can easily spot is as spam or and require more fees to process spam by all means do it. shouldnt be hard to get miners to do that.

but nothing is stopping the spammer to make his spam taste better, and with the current blocklimit with blocks often full its not very expensive for the spammer so spam with good tasting spam.

There isn't? I thought making it considerably more expensive to push spam transactions might act as a disincentive towards doing so. I don't understand this idea that "if blocks are often full (which is not true on average), it is not expensive to spam." Blocks being full doesn't make it cheaper to push transactions; quite the opposite.

cuz the spammer does not need to fill the block completely they are already half full on avg.
if block where on avg 99% full it would be cheap to spam it up so blocks are always 100% full
fee would go up and make the spam attack more expensive but not by much because spammer only really needs to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.

now imagine that blocks are 100% full all the time, how much does it cost to spam the network and create a 365day backlog? its already headed there naturally without spam, so not much!

"All the time" would be a very inaccurate description.

If the spammer does not need to fill 100% of blocks himself, that doesn't make it any cheaper for him on a per-size or per-output basis. The point of addressing spam is itself an end goal -- we don't have to consider it in the context of "OMG, a full block!" The disincentive is there, no hard fork is required, and this may considerably mitigate capacity issues (it may not) while reducing unnecessary bloat.

Sure, transaction volume is increasing on the long term. But I'm not convinced on the proportion of transactions that are "legitimate" (i.e. without spam). The capacity question is a perpetual one -- how do maintain efficient incentives in a constantly evolving economy? This is part of that question.

 
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September 09, 2015, 09:24:09 PM
 #17

I don't know it's because spam attack but clearly something's wrong.
https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
There's only 2.2 MB unconfirmed transactions but I'm waiting a confirmation for more than 3 hours.
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September 09, 2015, 09:35:29 PM
 #18

I don't know it's because spam attack but clearly something's wrong.
https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
There's only 2.2 MB unconfirmed transactions but I'm waiting a confirmation for more than 3 hours.

you 1MB guys get it now?

FFS this is unacceptable

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September 09, 2015, 09:36:00 PM
 #19

I don't know it's because spam attack but clearly something's wrong.
https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
There's only 2.2 MB unconfirmed transactions but I'm waiting a confirmation for more than 3 hours.

Keep an eye on these addresses:
1JHN9q3vPe25NPzjXX4u1SiAUem6FShu3z
175hfo7BQLmZvBAgLW4Hs2gtVNJj13eXRK
1JLd3YMioeYYENoukbsyHCeaN21CYxDqR
1JYMqE28v6KUW51f5yAj43nQichntQ1yz2
19Fua2AHaJ82P3vorNyhHe9aFi3aYAEY8x

Dust outputs are being cleared. Each new output = 8-10% of every new block found.

 
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September 09, 2015, 09:37:41 PM
 #20

I don't know it's because spam attack but clearly something's wrong.
https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
There's only 2.2 MB unconfirmed transactions but I'm waiting a confirmation for more than 3 hours.

you 1MB guys get it now?

FFS this is unacceptable

Why do you have to make it so sectarian? Us vs. them? 1MBers vs. the world? The issue we are experiencing right now and during the stress tests can be addressed by disincentivizing spam. What's the point of increasing capacity to make room for spam?

IMO, the giant transactions that are consuming blocks at this moment contain outputs that never should have existed on the blockchain to begin with.

 
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