Bitcoin Forum
April 25, 2024, 03:35:04 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: ion DELEGATION discussion  (Read 2045 times)
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 03:45:30 AM
 #21

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
1714016104
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714016104

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714016104
Reply with quote  #2

1714016104
Report to moderator
Be very wary of relying on JavaScript for security on crypto sites. The site can change the JavaScript at any time unless you take unusual precautions, and browsers are not generally known for their airtight security.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 04:00:37 AM
 #22

Smoothie says "put up or shut up". We are going to do it like this. I shut up. Then I put up and everyone else will shut up.

DPoS is not decentralized.  Here is why:

...Having said that, most people know that Bitshares is going to have elements of the Roman senate, maybe people will even stab or murder each other eventually.  It will be great for Coindesk news.  It's also going to have elements of corporate fascism, as corporate entites attempt to gain control of a disproportionate number of nodes.  If the ownership of publicly operated delegates seems fishy to you, you can simply stop using the system.  If they're operating nodes on the system, they probably have assets on the system, and will most likely be hurting themselves doing this.  

This is like if you see two Bitcoin PoW pools in China that combine to make up 70% of the hash rate but are owned by the same guy or brothers, you might stop using BTC.  The Satoshi system is obviously not sybil resistant in this case.  The incentives to not do this are basically the same in both systems, but it can still happen.   There will always be politics you can't escape from in the real world that you have to audit yourself.

The purpose of DPoS is kind of to engineer the way these systems play out from start to finish in a defined manner where the likelihood of things like sybil are minimized, or force them to be visible for you to audit yourself.  If you're uncomfortable with the delegate ownership or coin ownership, you should simply not use the platform...

http://cryptorials.io/glossary/delegated-proof-of-stake/
https://bitshares.org/technology/delegated-proof-of-stake-consensus/

Well, well now I see I have the only consensus design that is not a PoS (Piece of Shit), Satoshi's design included.

I take the best from Satoshi and fix it all the way it should have been.

'Nuff said. I need to implement, so I can publish. Sooner the better.

I am so sleepy, been here discussing for entire afternoon and night and now it is 11am again. Zzzzzz....

No it's more like:

"Shut up and work, then release your project without all the bullshit hype....and also please be humble."

thanks  Grin

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 04:04:49 AM
 #23

One important question to ask:

DID SATOSHI EVER ACT AS EGOTISTICAL AS ANONYMINT?  Roll Eyes

Satoshi could teach Anonymint a thing or two about having the right attitude and being humble.

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
Fuserleer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1016



View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 04:05:35 AM
 #24

One important question to ask:

DID SATOSHI EVER ACT AS EGOTISTICAL AS ANONYMINT?  Roll Eyes

Satoshi could teach Anonymint a thing or two about having the right attitude and being humble.

Lol!  He's really hit a nerve with you hasn't he? Smiley

Radix - DLT x.0

Web - http://radix.global  Forums - http://forum.radix.global Twitter - @radixdlt
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 04:13:07 AM
 #25

One important question to ask:

DID SATOSHI EVER ACT AS EGOTISTICAL AS ANONYMINT?  Roll Eyes

Satoshi could teach Anonymint a thing or two about having the right attitude and being humble.

Lol!  He's really hit a nerve with you hasn't he? Smiley

Not really I just think it is a glaring fact.  Grin Grin Grin


███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
generalizethis
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036


Facts are more efficient than fud


View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 04:21:17 AM
 #26



It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

Van Gogh also had hypergraphia--I like my creative geniuses a little off, shows they're in the schizo-realm as Delueze thought they should/must be.

“if schizophrenia is the universal, the great artist is indeed the one who scales the schizophrenic wall and reaches the land of the unknown, where he no longer belongs to any time, any milieu, any school.” –anti-oedipus, delueze and guattari

ion.cash
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 04:55:41 AM
 #27

It's called being mature and humble.

Take a lesson from Satoshi.

It starts with you giving me mutual respect. You started this. Do you want me to show your numerous disrespectful posts and trolling the definition of "delegate" (which clearly has an alternative definition which fits my use of it).

Back in Satoshi's days here, there were respectful very skilled developers here. Now the forum is populated by half-assed who think they know more than they do and Dunning-Kruger over all the place slandering those of us who are at Satoshi's caliber and beyond.

I couldn't have said that before I wrote the two recent white papers. But now I've seen with my own eyes (actually make that 1 eye, I'm blind in the other) that I bested all of them, Maxwell, the Zerocash devs, the Cryptonote devs, and even Satoshi.

So I know the respect I deserve. Or at least we can start with mutual respect. I put up with your ad hominem FUDing for several posts, without blowing up but you just keep grinding and grinding away. What are you the Altcoin Discussion police? Who assigned your badge and rank?

Do you really think I give a rat's ass what you think of my personality (when what you are seeing is a delayed and patience lost mirror of your massive disrespect)?

I just have one suggestion for you. Prepare for massive humiliation when I launch.

You are going to eat that " Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes" you were putting in every post about me in every fucking thread. Spreading your ad hominem shit all over the place.

Hey I don't have an ego problem. I know what I have. I can easily delete every nonsense post and it doesn't matter to me. My goal has nothing to do with the bickering you forced down my throat even I tried my best to be tolerant of your nonsense.

You are the one who is insulted with butt hurt ego when I pointed out you don't know how to read the thread before you comment, thus you make statements which were already refuted. Then you expect me to cower to you so you don't feel butt hurt. Then you tried to blame me for not putting the entire thread in the opening post. Cripes are you insane?

Look in the mirror buddy. There is the ego problem.
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:01:48 AM
Last edit: September 10, 2015, 05:14:27 AM by smoothie
 #28

It's called being mature and humble.

Take a lesson from Satoshi.

It starts with you giving me mutual respect. You started this. Do you want me to show your numerous disrespectful posts and trolling the definition of "delegate" (which clearly has an alternative definition which fits my use of it).

Back in Satoshi's days here, there were respectful very skilled developers here. Now the forum is populated by half-assed who think they know more than they do and Dunning-Kruger over all the place slandering those of us who are at Satoshi's caliber and beyond.

I couldn't have said that before I wrote the two recent white papers. But now I've seen with my own eyes (actually make that 1 eye, I'm blind in the other) that I bested all of them, Maxwell, the Zerocash devs, the Cryptonote devs, and even Satoshi.

So I know the respect I deserve. Or at least we can start with mutual respect. I put up with your ad hominem FUDing for several posts, without blowing up but you just keep grinding and grinding away. What are you the Altcoin Discussion police? Who assigned your badge and rank?

Do you really think I give a rat's ass what you think of my personality (when what you are seeing is a delayed and patience lost mirror of your massive disrespect)?

I just have one suggestion for you. Prepare for massive humiliation when I launch.

You are going to eat that " Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes" you were putting in every post about me in every fucking thread. Spreading your ad hominem shit all over the place.

Hey I don't have an ego problem. You are the one who is insulted and butt hurt ego when I pointed out you don't know how to read the thread before you comment, thus you make statements which were already refuted. Then you expect me to cower to you so you don't feel butt hurt.

Look in the mirror buddy. There is the ego problem.

Just because I dont agree with you does not imply disrespect. Don't get it twisted.

Don't put words in my mouth or paint me out to be the bad guy here.

I simply asked questions and pretty much got "wait until the white paper" or "don't discuss delegation anymore". And this is as you cherry picked what you wanted to release from your white paper (after the fact that I asked the questions then had the gall to make me appear to be incompetent on your concepts when you offered 0 substance other than words and talk).

For someone who has a "shit-ton" of work to do on your "project" you sure have a lot of time to respond to me.

GO WORK ON YOUR PROJECT AND PLEASE RELEASE IT WHEN YOU ARE DONE. Stop the hype bullshit by posting about it before it is even ready. Makes no sense and is premature in nature (still currently vaporware as smooth called it).

I won't be humiliated as I already offered to publicly apologize if you do create a system that does everything you claimed below:



Quote
Recently I announced my rationale to develop my coin non-anonymously, with any anonymity features to be added by other developers later.

The proposed name of the coin is Ion with a capitalized first letter when it can be written with a serif font, e.g. Ion— otherwise ion instead of Ion. For me ion connotes a thing that can conduct a current and be zapped to a destination.

Formerly AnonyMint et al, I expended 2+ years thinking about anonymity designs and recently formalized an unreleased white paper which I think is the holy grail of on chain anonymity. This will be offloaded to other developers, so I can work non-anonymously on this coin.

The current focus of my development on this coin is to complete a novel consensus network design which has proposed the following fixes to flaws in Satoshi’s design while retaining proof-of-work as unbounded entropy[1]:

Censorship resistance even if mining is entirely centralized.
Attack-free instant zero confirmation instantaneous transactions.
Impervious to selfish mining and 51% attacks.
Transaction rates virtually unbounded by block chain bandwidth and size.
Resilient against network fragmentation.
Decentralization of pools and ASICs by making them uneconomic.
Non-heuristic Sybil and DoS resistance.

None of the above is a joke nor exaggeration. I am entirely serious. My programming background and expertise is documented in the archives of my prior usernames.

Currently unreleased white papers will not be published until this coin is nearer to release to insure these designs are released first in our coin. Thus for the time being I may not be providing more details on how the above features are accomplished.

Soon I will be uploading some code to the internet and will update this opening post and bump the thread. I will also be announcing some bounties in coins for those who want to do development on this coin. I will also later add some information on the targeted launch date and other details on the coin supply and distribution.

So that new readers can digest this thread from start to finish, I will be removing your posts sometimes to incorporate what was discussed into this opening thread post. I will also remove posts which are redundant or otherwise don't add anything useful information. Constructive critical discussion is welcomed.

The future goal is to have a Wiki and incorporate all discussion there. All posts would remain viewable in the Wiki history as they are removed from current versions of the Wiki pages and the outcome of discussion incorporated into the current versions of the Wiki pages. The point again is so new readers can access the information they need.

You are welcome to make an unmoderated thread, but do not expect me to comment there. Bring any issue in this thread if you want me to address it.

[1] My position until I am convinced otherwise is that all non-proof-of-work consensus systems have a bounded entropy (e.g. the total stake and/or any initial seeds used for randomization) and thus their attributes (e.g. decentralization, censorship resistance, DoS resistance, Sybil attack resistance, impartiality) is subject to a game theory which is potentially undiscovered. Whereas, the entropy of proof-of-work is unbounded because it is externally added and the game theory is well defined.

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:05:03 AM
 #29


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
ion.cash
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 05:16:34 AM
 #30

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

You ad hominem me every where then tell me I don't have self-control when I restrain myself and try to explain to you calmly.

Then you push and push and push your  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes in my face in numerous threads numerous times attacking me as not being humble when I am in fact answering far more about the consensus algorithm than was my request to not discuss it, trying to be nice and appease you all.

But you just keep kicking me in the balls because you want to be able to say that I don't have self control.

Nice classic asshole technique. Thanks.


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

I try to stop discussing and you attacked me for doing so. Thanks for proving my point.

You are like a spoiled brat who can't get what he wants, who makes logical errors, is too lazy to read the thread, then blames it all on the other person.

You ought to really go re-read everything chronologically so you can see how fair I was.
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:19:01 AM
 #31

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

You ad hominem me every where then tell me I don't have self-control when I restrain myself and try to explain to you calmly.

Then you push and push and push your  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes in my face in numerous threads numerous times attacking me as not being humble when I am in fact answering far more about the consensus algorithm than was my request to not discuss it, trying to be nice and appease you all.

But you just keep kicking me in the balls because you want to be able to say that I don't have self control.

Nice classic asshole technique. Thanks.


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

I try to stop discussing and you attacked me for doing so. Thanks for proving my point.

You are like a spoiled brat who can't get what he wants, who makes logical errors, is too lazy to read the thread, then blames it all on the other person.

You ought to really go re-read everything chronologically so you can see how fair I was.

ad hominem?

You mean me posting my observations of your huge ego?

You also appear to play the victim card very well. Sorry I don't feel sorry for you.

It's called an opinion. Please be mature and act your age as I get a gist that you are much much older than I am.

Thanks   Smiley

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
ion.cash
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 05:23:23 AM
 #32

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

You ad hominem me every where then tell me I don't have self-control when I restrain myself and try to explain to you calmly.

Then you push and push and push your  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes in my face in numerous threads numerous times attacking me as not being humble when I am in fact answering far more about the consensus algorithm than was my request to not discuss it, trying to be nice and appease you all.

But you just keep kicking me in the balls because you want to be able to say that I don't have self control.

Nice classic asshole technique. Thanks.


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

I try to stop discussing and you attacked me for doing so. Thanks for proving my point.

You are like a spoiled brat who can't get what he wants, who makes logical errors, is too lazy to read the thread, then blames it all on the other person.

You ought to really go re-read everything chronologically so you can see how fair I was.

ad hominem?

You mean me posting my observations of your huge ego?

You also appear to play the victim card. Sorry I don't feel sorry for you.

It's called an opinion. Please be mature and act your age as I get a gist that you are much much older than I am.

Thanks   Smiley

Likewise I am expressing my opinion. You need also a lesson in being humble. If you are humble with me, I am humble with you.

Mutual respect. You didn't make a single valid point in all the noise you wrote today. You try to salvage your ego by declaring I am not humble. Whining like a bitch. Are you a female?

Hey your bullshit is becoming far too obvious. Now you try to sucker me into some dislogic that I was trying to be a victim.

FUCK OFF ASSHOLE.

YOU WILL NEVER CODE A COIN.
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:26:36 AM
 #33

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

You ad hominem me every where then tell me I don't have self-control when I restrain myself and try to explain to you calmly.

Then you push and push and push your  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes in my face in numerous threads numerous times attacking me as not being humble when I am in fact answering far more about the consensus algorithm than was my request to not discuss it, trying to be nice and appease you all.

But you just keep kicking me in the balls because you want to be able to say that I don't have self control.

Nice classic asshole technique. Thanks.


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

I try to stop discussing and you attacked me for doing so. Thanks for proving my point.

You are like a spoiled brat who can't get what he wants, who makes logical errors, is too lazy to read the thread, then blames it all on the other person.

You ought to really go re-read everything chronologically so you can see how fair I was.

ad hominem?

You mean me posting my observations of your huge ego?

You also appear to play the victim card. Sorry I don't feel sorry for you.

It's called an opinion. Please be mature and act your age as I get a gist that you are much much older than I am.

Thanks   Smiley

Likewise I am expressing my opinion. You need also a lesson in being humble. If you are humble with me, I am humble with you.

Mutual respect. You didn't make a single valid point in all the noise you wrote today. You try to salvage your ego by declaring I am not humble. Whining like a bitch. Are you a female?

Ad hominem. ^

Sorry I just can't take you seriously. What you say doesn't matter. What you do will always speak louder.

You can leave my thread and go work on your project instead of going back and forth with me.

You have proven nothing in my eyes other than you talk more than you execute.  Kiss

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
ion.cash
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 05:29:58 AM
 #34

I see you like to play psychological games.

Crafty slimy weasel.

It won't help you win. Being good at being a weasel doesn't go far in terms of real accomplishments in life. It is destructive behavior and thus you will end up where you deserve.

This useless blob of flesh is going on ignore now. All of his posts will be deleted from my threads. End of story.
Fuserleer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1016



View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 05:31:45 AM
 #35

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

You ad hominem me every where then tell me I don't have self-control when I restrain myself and try to explain to you calmly.

Then you push and push and push your  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes in my face in numerous threads numerous times attacking me as not being humble when I am in fact answering far more about the consensus algorithm than was my request to not discuss it, trying to be nice and appease you all.

But you just keep kicking me in the balls because you want to be able to say that I don't have self control.

Nice classic asshole technique. Thanks.


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

I try to stop discussing and you attacked me for doing so. Thanks for proving my point.

You are like a spoiled brat who can't get what he wants, who makes logical errors, is too lazy to read the thread, then blames it all on the other person.

You ought to really go re-read everything chronologically so you can see how fair I was.

ad hominem?

You mean me posting my observations of your huge ego?

You also appear to play the victim card. Sorry I don't feel sorry for you.

It's called an opinion. Please be mature and act your age as I get a gist that you are much much older than I am.

Thanks   Smiley

Likewise I am expressing my opinion. You need also a lesson in being humble. If you are humble with me, I am humble with you.

Mutual respect. You didn't make a single valid point in all the noise you wrote today. You try to salvage your ego by declaring I am not humble. Whining like a bitch. Are you a female?

Hey your bullshit is becoming far too obvious. Now you try to sucker me into some dislogic that I was trying to be a victim.

FUCK OFF ASSHOLE.

YOU WILL NEVER CODE A COIN.

Wow, dude, seriously just breathe and relax.

That kinda talk ain't gonna win you any friends nor do you any favors!

Radix - DLT x.0

Web - http://radix.global  Forums - http://forum.radix.global Twitter - @radixdlt
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:32:45 AM
 #36

I see you like to play psychological games.

Crafty slimy weasel.

It won't help you win. Being good at being a weasel doesn't go far in terms of real accomplishments in life. It is destructive behavior and thus you will end up where you deserve.

Not trying to win anything. But anyway...

Get back to work! You have a shit-ton of work to do with your "project"  Grin

No time to slack on arguing with smoothie.

Sticks and stones buddy... Sticks and stones Roll Eyes


███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:33:51 AM
 #37

I'm bothered by the fact that he opens a thread for his project where he refuses to discuss certain questions in detail (even goes as far as threatening with deletion) because "wait for the whitepaper".

I don't see the point of the thread.

Mark this down for the history books.

I agree with traumschiff.

Seems like the only purpose is to hype vaporware.

I don't think it is really malicious but more driven by enthusiasm and being a bit impatient to wait until it's actually done (at least in part) before discussing it. The effect is similar though.

It stems from self control. Anyone who has a good sense of self-control would shut his mouth and work and release the product when it is done.

Instead of posting for months (and years?) about how he has a great system that will blow bitcoin out of the water on every item of importance, just work on it and get it done.

Instead of waiting, he jumps the gun.

I would be willing to apologize publicly if he indeeds fulfills ALL of his claims in his project. But until then it is all HYPE.

You ad hominem me every where then tell me I don't have self-control when I restrain myself and try to explain to you calmly.

Then you push and push and push your  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes in my face in numerous threads numerous times attacking me as not being humble when I am in fact answering far more about the consensus algorithm than was my request to not discuss it, trying to be nice and appease you all.

But you just keep kicking me in the balls because you want to be able to say that I don't have self control.

Nice classic asshole technique. Thanks.


I am not going to be following the discussion in this thread at this time.


You post this earlier today ^



Hence my " Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes"

lol

I try to stop discussing and you attacked me for doing so. Thanks for proving my point.

You are like a spoiled brat who can't get what he wants, who makes logical errors, is too lazy to read the thread, then blames it all on the other person.

You ought to really go re-read everything chronologically so you can see how fair I was.

ad hominem?

You mean me posting my observations of your huge ego?

You also appear to play the victim card. Sorry I don't feel sorry for you.

It's called an opinion. Please be mature and act your age as I get a gist that you are much much older than I am.

Thanks   Smiley

Likewise I am expressing my opinion. You need also a lesson in being humble. If you are humble with me, I am humble with you.

Mutual respect. You didn't make a single valid point in all the noise you wrote today. You try to salvage your ego by declaring I am not humble. Whining like a bitch. Are you a female?

Hey your bullshit is becoming far too obvious. Now you try to sucker me into some dislogic that I was trying to be a victim.

FUCK OFF ASSHOLE.

YOU WILL NEVER CODE A COIN.

Wow, dude, seriously just breathe and relax.

That kinda talk ain't gonna win you any friends nor do you any favors!

LOL...  Grin

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
shitaifan2013
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 879
Merit: 1000

monero


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:34:45 AM
 #38

BTC keeps going sideways and everyone is ripping each other apart - the next rallye is overdue, otherwise there won't be much community left  Grin

edit: sorry for off topic @smoothie, won't happen again

Fuserleer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1016



View Profile WWW
September 10, 2015, 05:49:01 AM
 #39

BTC keeps going sideways and everyone is ripping each other apart - the next rallye is overdue, otherwise there won't be much community left  Grin

edit: sorry for off topic @smoothie, won't happen again

This whole damn thread is so far off topic now I'm pretty sure no one cares!   There has been like 4 posts on delegation and then....BOOM....fireworks like the 5th November!

Radix - DLT x.0

Web - http://radix.global  Forums - http://forum.radix.global Twitter - @radixdlt
smoothie (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473


LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


View Profile
September 10, 2015, 05:53:51 AM
 #40

Recently I announced my rationale to develop my coin non-anonymously, with any anonymity features to be added by other developers later.

The proposed name of the coin is Ion with a capitalized first letter when it can be written with a serif font, e.g. Ion— otherwise ion instead of Ion. For me ion connotes a thing that can conduct a current and be zapped to a destination.

Formerly AnonyMint et al, I expended 2+ years thinking about anonymity designs and recently formalized an unreleased white paper which I think is the holy grail of on chain anonymity. This will be offloaded to other developers, so I can work non-anonymously on this coin.

The current focus of my development on this coin is to complete a novel consensus network design which has proposed the following fixes to flaws in Satoshi’s design while retaining proof-of-work as unbounded entropy[1]:

  • Censorship resistance even if mining is entirely centralized.
  • Attack-free instant zero confirmation instantaneous transactions.
  • Impervious to selfish mining and 51% attacks.
  • Transaction rates virtually unbounded by block chain bandwidth and size.
  • Resilient against network fragmentation.
  • Decentralization of pools and ASICs by making them uneconomic.
  • Non-heuristic Sybil and DoS resistance.

None of the above is a joke nor exaggeration. I am entirely serious. My programming background and expertise is documented in the archives of my prior usernames.

Currently unreleased white papers will not be published until this coin is nearer to release to insure these designs are released first in our coin. Thus for the time being I may not be providing more details on how the above features are accomplished.

Soon I will be uploading some code to the internet and will update this opening post and bump the thread. I will also be announcing some bounties in coins for those who want to do development on this coin. I will also later add some information on the targeted launch date and other details on the coin supply and distribution.

So that new readers can digest this thread from start to finish, I will be removing your posts sometimes to incorporate what was discussed into this opening thread post. I will also remove posts which are redundant or otherwise don't add anything useful information. Constructive critical discussion is welcomed.

The future goal is to have a Wiki and incorporate all discussion there. All posts would remain viewable in the Wiki history as they are removed from current versions of the Wiki pages and the outcome of discussion incorporated into the current versions of the Wiki pages. The point again is so new readers can access the information they need.

You are welcome to make an unmoderated thread, but do not expect me to comment there. Bring any issue in this thread if you want me to address it.

[1] My position until I am convinced otherwise is that all non-proof-of-work consensus systems have a bounded entropy (e.g. the total stake and/or any initial seeds used for randomization) and thus their attributes (e.g. decentralization, censorship resistance, DoS resistance, Sybil attack resistance, impartiality) is subject to a game theory which is potentially undiscovered. Whereas, the entropy of proof-of-work is unbounded because it is externally added and the game theory is well defined.

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!