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Author Topic: The state of crypto - The only serious thread on the subforum  (Read 18788 times)
r0ach
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September 09, 2015, 08:24:52 PM
 #141

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Satoshi created Bitcoin as a proof of concept and didn't actually engineer any of the end game variables in his system.  The result did not lead to decentralization.  If it wasn't proof of concept, it would have been engineered a specific way from start to finish, but it wasn't, there's far too many loose ends and unaccounted variables.  It's unknown if he was even adamant on forcing the system to run on PoW forever.  He seems like a relatively smart person, so I kind of doubt he would purposely engineer a system to consume something like one fourth the world's power if it became world reserve currency on purpose.  At that point, it would be the equivalent of designing the system to create nanorobots that turn every atom on the planet into paperclips.

I've seen Gavin quotes talking about porting Bitcoin to some form of PoS system in the future (not standard Sunny King PoS), so other people seem to agree on that point, that everything is entirely open ended, it's all proof of concept, and nothing is set in stone.  Decentralized is an ambigious term that means nothing.  Even Kelsey, "the Litecoin troll", acknowledged this.

Trying to claim a system like DPoS isn't decentralized and saying PoW Bitcoin is, is the biggest red herring in the room.  It's trading one set of pros and cons for another, then you weigh what you gained and what you lost and find the winner.  If Bitcoin's current implementation with PoW was buzz word "decentralized", then it would have never hit 50% or more hash rate at Ghash, and Peter Todd wouldn't have sold half his Bitcoin when it happened:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/281ftd/why_i_just_sold_50_of_my_bitcoins_ghashio/

If Bitcoin PoW was "decentralized", then China wouldn't currently control Bitcoin with an iron grip, having 70% of the hash rate in one country, mostly run by 3 pools.  Anything you can count on one hand doesn't exactly sound "decentralized" to me.  There's no such thing as decentralized, everything is just pros and cons.  Satoshi is an excellent cryptographer, mediocre engineer, and great bullshit artist.


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September 09, 2015, 08:28:24 PM
 #142

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Nor is it necessarily an antithetical concept. Delegated can be decentralized and effectively as trustless as Satoshi's design is (with some differing assumptions that have differing tradeoffs).

No one said that it was antithetical. The point is they are not the same.

Guns and bullets are not the same, but they don't preclude working together. If your point is that delegation does not necessarily imply decentralization, then so what. Satoshi's white paper Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System doesn't have the word decentralized in the name. The title of my white paper emphasizes the key feature of the design. That omission of word in the title doesn't insinuate that it isn't decentralized nor trustless.

Come on I don't want to get into silly tit'for'tat noise.

Trying to claim a system like DPoS isn't decentralized and saying PoW Bitcoin is, is the biggest red herring in the room.  It's trading one set of pros and cons for another, then you weigh what you gained and what you lost and find the winner.  If Bitcoin's current implementation with PoW was buzz word "decentralized", then it would have never hit 50% or more hash rate at Ghash, and Peter Todd wouldn't have sold half his Bitcoin when it happened...

Very well stated. Thanks. I am not too clear yet on the DPoS design and its tradeoffs. I will look into it.

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September 09, 2015, 08:29:25 PM
 #143

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Satoshi created Bitcoin as a proof of concept and didn't actually engineer any of the end game variables in his system.  The result did not lead to decentralization.  If it wasn't proof of concept, it would have been engineered a specific way from start to finish, but it wasn't, there's far too many loose ends and unaccounted variables.

True. He clearly left an unfinished development for reasons unknown.

Quote
It's unknown if he was even adamant on forcing the system to run on PoW forever.  He seems like a relatively smart person, so I kind of doubt he would purposely engineer a system to consume something like one fourth the world's power if it became world reserve currency on purpose.

That's clearly not the case since the block rewards go to zero and the bigger question is whether there would even be enough PoW, not whether there would be too much.

The concern over PoW going gray goo over all the world's power is based on the bizarre premise of moonstruck fanatics that it becomes the world reserve currency tomorrow, despite not even being able to figure out how to scale above 5-7 tps. After a few more block halvings this would not be the case at all.

Here's a chart showing energy use assuming 1 BTC = $100 000. World electricity production is in the neighborhood of 2 TW, so anything after the first few eras is not particularly problematic.

Code:
    Original target      Subsidy    Est Fees   Power
Era   starting year    BTC/block    BTC/hour      GW
--- ---------------  -----------  ----------  ------
  0            2009  50.00000000  0.00000000  270.00
  1            2013  25.00000000  0.00000000  135.00
  2            2017  12.50000000  0.00000000   67.50
  3            2021   6.25000000  0.00000000   33.75
  4            2025   3.12500000  0.00000000   16.88
  5            2029   1.56250000  0.00000000    8.44
  6            2033   0.78125000  1.31250000    5.40
  7            2037   0.39062500  3.65625000    5.40
  8            2041   0.19531250  4.82812500    5.40
  9            2045   0.09765625  5.41406250    5.40
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September 09, 2015, 08:36:47 PM
 #144

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Nor is it necessarily an antithetical concept. Delegated can be decentralized and effectively as trustless as Satoshi's design is (with some differing assumptions that have differing tradeoffs).

No one said that it was antithetical. The point is they are not the same.

Guns and bullets are not the same, but they don't preclude working together. If your point is that delegation does not necessarily imply decentralization, then so what. Satoshi's white paper Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System doesn't have the word decentralized in the name. The title of my white paper emphasizes the key feature of the design. That omission of word in the title doesn't insinuate that it isn't decentralized nor trustless.

Come on I don't want to get into silly tit'for'tat noise.

Trying to claim a system like DPoS isn't decentralized and saying PoW Bitcoin is, is the biggest red herring in the room.  It's trading one set of pros and cons for another, then you weigh what you gained and what you lost and find the winner.  If Bitcoin's current implementation with PoW was buzz word "decentralized", then it would have never hit 50% or more hash rate at Ghash, and Peter Todd wouldn't have sold half his Bitcoin when it happened...

Very well stated. Thanks. I am not too clear yet on the DPoS design and its tradeoffs. I will look into it.

Did you even look up the word delegated?

It does require trust in order to delegate. Not sure how you have a delegated transaction consensus without trust.

Otherwise, why delegate in the first place?

Or is that just a word you use to put there not actually wanting to have it carry its meaning behind it?

Not trying to get into a silly argument.

You called your system "delegated" yet there it is trustless. As far as I am aware in order to delegate you need to have a central point to delegate from and trust those who you are delegating to.

Otherwise why call it delegated? Poor word choice perhaps?

Quote
del·e·gate
verb
past tense: delegated; past participle: delegated
ˈdeləˌɡāt/
entrust (a task or responsibility) to another person, typically one who is less senior than oneself.
"he delegates routine tasks"
synonyms:   assign, entrust, pass on, hand on/over, turn over, devolve, depute, transfer
"she must delegate routine tasks"
send or authorize (someone) to do something as a representative.
"Edward was delegated to meet new arrivals"
synonyms:   authorize, commission, depute, appoint, nominate, mandate, empower, charge, choose, designate, elect
"I don't recall which personnel were delegated to carry out the inspections"

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September 09, 2015, 08:39:40 PM
 #145

Did you even look up the word delegated?

It does require trust in order to delegate. Not sure how you have a delegated transaction consensus without trust.

What do you think pool mining is?  

First we have litecoin trolls, now semantic trolls.

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September 09, 2015, 08:45:38 PM
 #146

Did you even look up the word delegated?

It does require trust in order to delegate. Not sure how you have a delegated transaction consensus without trust.

What do you think pool mining is?  

First we have litecoin trolls, now semantic trolls.

Excuse me. Please leave the name calling at the door. I'm not a troll.

I am a genuinely interested user here asking legitimate questions.


To answer you,

Pool mining is built upon the protocol not making it the same as the underlying system.

My point being that bitcoin could survive without pool mining. Pool mining is not a requirement for bitcoin to be useful.

Once again please leave the name calling at the door as I am honestly genuinely interested.

Just because I ask questions does not automatically make me a troll.

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September 09, 2015, 11:52:54 PM
 #147

DPoS is not decentralized.  Here is why:

For all those interested in how a few of the wealthiest Bitshares' stakeholders can effectively rig the mass majority of the elections, here is how.

It doesn't matter if you collect delegates' SSNs, driver's licenses, birth certificates and thumbprints, Bitshares' DPoS mechanism will always be susceptible to manipulation.  You have introduced a "social construct" (aka voting) which turns Bitshares' delegates into a "government of the wealthy".  No one will ever know what type of "behind-the-scenes" politics is going on which results in which delegates are selected.

Because you have instituted this ridiculous charade into chain security, all your figures on "decentralization" and "speed of decentralization" are speculative and assume that all 101 delegates are unique, non-colluding individuals.  The fact is all these delegates are not going to compete against each other for a position.  Who will become a delegate and control the delegate selection process are the wealthiest stakeholders.  This will be accomplished in a quid pro quo manner.  This means that really Bitshares is less decentralized than NXT because they will be able to form political/business coalitions which imo will result in them dominating the delegate selection process.  The wealthiest stakeholders in Bitshares can do this very easily because it is an "Approval Voting" process.  This allows stakeholders to put the entire weight of their stake behind each and every delegate they approve. The Bitshares' devs will deny this to the very end because they are part of this "ruling elite".

I think I could make a pretty good argument that delegates' "real world" identities being known by the community doesn't really matter or prevent a "Sybil attack".  Imo, what would constitute a "Sybil attack" is the collusion of delegates' motives.  I'm also pretty positive that the colluding delegates wouldn't "harm" the Bitshares' ecosystem, but instead use their power to manipulate delegate elections to capitalize on the delegate positions.  Everybody can know everyones' name, but it's impossible to know their true intentions.

Any block chain has the problem that a few big players can collude, whether they are large stakeholders or large hashpoolers.  We dilute that down to under one percent influence per delegate, max.

Then there's the question of what they can collude about.  We can all observe whether they are performing their very limited block signing job to spec or not. We can look at their published price feeds. They have no other power.

That's true that in all blockchains stakeholders/hashpower can collude, but they can only collude in a one-to-one proportion to their stake/hash.  Since approval voting is used in delegate elections, I maintain that large stakeholders can effectively collude to a multiple proportion of their stake.  Whereby, for example, 20% of colluding stake can disproportionately influence the elections of more than 20% of the delegates.  This leads to a coalition of a few wealthy stakeholders being able to determine the outcomes of the mass majority of the delegate elections.  This is especially true considering that voter turnout of smaller stakeholders will be lower than the voter turnout of larger stakeholders.  As I said previously, it would be the intention of the colluding wealthy stakeholders to not harm Bitshares, but to elect delegates from which they would derive monetary gain in excess to their proportion of stake in the system at the expense of all other stakeholders.

Let's give an example.  Remember, in "approval voting", voters do not just vote for one delegate.  They can select as many or as few delegates as they wish and the entire weight of their stake counts towards each delegate they choose.  Say for instance that the top delegate has 50% of the vote and the 101st delegate has 30% of the vote.  The voting spread percentage is 20% (50%-30%).  If the votes per delegate is a linear increase according to delegate rank, an additional 10% of the stake vote will move the 101st delegate to the 50th position.  Likewise, a removal of 10% of the stake vote from the lower 50 delegates will result in them losing their delegate position.  By strategically voting, a few wealthy stakeholders can influence a disproportionate number of delegate positions in relation to their actual stake.  In this example, a coalition of 10% stake was able to control 50% of the delegates.

Does this sound fair to you?!

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September 10, 2015, 12:54:07 AM
 #148

That's clearly not the case since the block rewards go to zero and the bigger question is whether there would even be enough PoW, not whether there would be too much.

The concern over PoW going gray goo over all the world's power is based on the bizarre premise of moonstruck fanatics that it becomes the world reserve currency tomorrow, despite not even being able to figure out how to scale above 5-7 tps. After a few more block halvings this would not be the case at all.

This is why being able to objectively filter 25 - 33% selfish mining attacks and 51% attacks is so critical. Satoshi's design can not do it. Mine can.

With that key improvement, then one can change the way mining is done so that those who are sending transactions are doing the mining, but they don't care about their profitability so then you drastically reduce the electricity used, yet simultaneously make it uneconomic to run an ASIC farm. And pools become irrelevant because no one is mining for profit, rather because they must mine to send a transaction.

So then you have the unbounded entropy of proof-of-work that insures its model of security and game theory, without any of the drawbacks.

TADA.  Grin

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September 10, 2015, 01:45:40 AM
 #149

DPoS is not decentralized.  Here is why:

It's hard to take your post seriously when your entire account is devoted to shilling for NXT and fanatical stalking of Bitshares devs.  Anyone that read the original post can tell that instead of improving upon PoW, standard proof of stake brings in so many new problems and dead ends, you would probably be better off using Bitcoin, fiat notes, or bartering with random objects from your house instead.  If you're going to claim DPoS can't work while shilling for NXT, you're at least obligated to explain how the mess of a system known as standard proof of stake outlined in the original post is supposed to function on a globale scale.  I just don't see it working at all.

Having said that, most people know that Bitshares is going to have elements of the Roman senate, maybe people will even stab or murder each other eventually.  It will be great for Coindesk news.  It's also going to have elements of corporate fascism, as corporate entites attempt to gain control of a disproportionate number of nodes.  If the ownership of publicly operated delegates seems fishy to you, you can simply stop using the system.  If they're operating nodes on the system, they probably have assets on the system, and will most likely be hurting themselves doing this.  

This is like if you see two Bitcoin PoW pools in China that combine to make up 70% of the hash rate but are owned by the same guy or brothers, you might stop using BTC.  The Satoshi system is obviously not sybil resistant in this case.  The incentives to not do this are basically the same in both systems, but it can still happen.   There will always be politics you can't escape from in the real world that you have to audit yourself.

The purpose of DPoS is kind of to engineer the way these systems play out from start to finish in a defined manner where the likelihood of things like sybil are minimized, or force them to be visible for you to audit.  If you're uncomfortable with the delegate ownership or coin ownership, you should simply not use the platform.  It's no different than manually measuring the different real world metrics of Bitcoin like hash rate to see if it's distributed.  Also like having to manually audit standard proof of stake wealth to figure out if one guy owns 90% of coins, except he could have them in separate accounts, so it's not even possible to do.  Woops, sybil attacked again on 3 different consensus mechanisms.  At least on both DPoS and PoW you had a chance of manually auditing it yourself to find out and prevent it.

Let's take this to the real end game though.  What happens if Bitcoin becomes the world reserve currency?  Do you really believe each nation that already has treaties with each other is going to sit there blowing megatons of coal, hashing away for no reason with basically the only benefit being the preventionion of keynesianism?  At this point, they would all just integrate into a delegate system like DPoS organically.  Things like DPoS are designed to go global, the others are not.

PoW is dead on so many levels it's not even funny, unless you see cryptocurrency always maintaining a tiny market cap and powering things like the Silk Road.  Standard proof of stake is far more sketchy than DPoS, so this leaves you with very limited currently existing options.

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TPTB_need_war
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September 10, 2015, 02:49:06 AM
 #150


My white paper will be the first to show the above are false assumptions.

I am telling you I am going to shock the world.

I don't do small things. I rock the Titanic.

Call this hype without details. Fine. But I can't let you write fallacious statements without pointing them out.

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September 10, 2015, 03:21:34 AM
 #151

DPoS is not decentralized.  Here is why:

...Having said that, most people know that Bitshares is going to have elements of the Roman senate, maybe people will even stab or murder each other eventually.  It will be great for Coindesk news.  It's also going to have elements of corporate fascism, as corporate entites attempt to gain control of a disproportionate number of nodes.  If the ownership of publicly operated delegates seems fishy to you, you can simply stop using the system.  If they're operating nodes on the system, they probably have assets on the system, and will most likely be hurting themselves doing this.  

This is like if you see two Bitcoin PoW pools in China that combine to make up 70% of the hash rate but are owned by the same guy or brothers, you might stop using BTC.  The Satoshi system is obviously not sybil resistant in this case.  The incentives to not do this are basically the same in both systems, but it can still happen.   There will always be politics you can't escape from in the real world that you have to audit yourself.

The purpose of DPoS is kind of to engineer the way these systems play out from start to finish in a defined manner where the likelihood of things like sybil are minimized, or force them to be visible for you to audit yourself.  If you're uncomfortable with the delegate ownership or coin ownership, you should simply not use the platform...

http://cryptorials.io/glossary/delegated-proof-of-stake/
https://bitshares.org/technology/delegated-proof-of-stake-consensus/

Well, well now I see I have the only consensus design that is not a PoS (Piece of Shit), Satoshi's design included.

I take the best from Satoshi and fix it all the way it should have been.

'Nuff said. I need to implement, so I can publish. Sooner the better.

I am so sleepy, been here discussing for entire afternoon and night and now it is 11am again. Zzzzzz....

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September 10, 2015, 03:38:46 AM
 #152


My white paper will be the first to show the above are false assumptions.

I am telling you I am going to shock the world.

I don't do small things. I rock the Titanic.

Call this hype without details. Fine. But I can't let you write fallacious statements without pointing them out.

You also can't (at the moment) prove them to be false.

We are still waiting.  Roll Eyes

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September 10, 2015, 03:40:43 AM
 #153

DPoS is not decentralized.  Here is why:

...Having said that, most people know that Bitshares is going to have elements of the Roman senate, maybe people will even stab or murder each other eventually.  It will be great for Coindesk news.  It's also going to have elements of corporate fascism, as corporate entites attempt to gain control of a disproportionate number of nodes.  If the ownership of publicly operated delegates seems fishy to you, you can simply stop using the system.  If they're operating nodes on the system, they probably have assets on the system, and will most likely be hurting themselves doing this.  

This is like if you see two Bitcoin PoW pools in China that combine to make up 70% of the hash rate but are owned by the same guy or brothers, you might stop using BTC.  The Satoshi system is obviously not sybil resistant in this case.  The incentives to not do this are basically the same in both systems, but it can still happen.   There will always be politics you can't escape from in the real world that you have to audit yourself.

The purpose of DPoS is kind of to engineer the way these systems play out from start to finish in a defined manner where the likelihood of things like sybil are minimized, or force them to be visible for you to audit yourself.  If you're uncomfortable with the delegate ownership or coin ownership, you should simply not use the platform...

http://cryptorials.io/glossary/delegated-proof-of-stake/
https://bitshares.org/technology/delegated-proof-of-stake-consensus/

Well, well now I see I have the only consensus design that is not a PoS (Piece of Shit), Satoshi's design included.

I take the best from Satoshi and fix it all the way it should have been.

'Nuff said. I need to implement, so I can publish. Sooner the better.

I am so sleepy, been here discussing for entire afternoon and night and now it is 11am again. Zzzzzz....

One thing that stands out is your ego.

Honestly I am giving you my observation. You remind me of RealSolid (dev of solid coin) back in the day.

He would talk so highly of himself and amounted to nothing.

Perhaps instead of building yourself up, be humble and release your project when it is done and stop with the unnecessary ego pumping.

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September 10, 2015, 04:03:55 AM
 #154

Having said that, most people know that Bitshares is going to have elements of the Roman senate, maybe people will even stab or murder each other eventually.  It will be great for Coindesk news.  It's also going to have elements of corporate fascism, as corporate entites attempt to gain control of a disproportionate number of nodes.


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September 10, 2015, 08:14:23 AM
 #155

Lol at DE the NXt troll trying so very hard yet failing lol

Leave it alone decentralized exchange troll nxt marketcap is now falling lower because market is beginning to see thru bs like you.

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September 10, 2015, 08:22:14 AM
 #156

DPoS is not decentralized.  Here is why:

...Having said that, most people know that Bitshares is going to have elements of the Roman senate, maybe people will even stab or murder each other eventually.  It will be great for Coindesk news.  It's also going to have elements of corporate fascism, as corporate entites attempt to gain control of a disproportionate number of nodes.  If the ownership of publicly operated delegates seems fishy to you, you can simply stop using the system.  If they're operating nodes on the system, they probably have assets on the system, and will most likely be hurting themselves doing this.  

This is like if you see two Bitcoin PoW pools in China that combine to make up 70% of the hash rate but are owned by the same guy or brothers, you might stop using BTC.  The Satoshi system is obviously not sybil resistant in this case.  The incentives to not do this are basically the same in both systems, but it can still happen.   There will always be politics you can't escape from in the real world that you have to audit yourself.

The purpose of DPoS is kind of to engineer the way these systems play out from start to finish in a defined manner where the likelihood of things like sybil are minimized, or force them to be visible for you to audit yourself.  If you're uncomfortable with the delegate ownership or coin ownership, you should simply not use the platform...

http://cryptorials.io/glossary/delegated-proof-of-stake/
https://bitshares.org/technology/delegated-proof-of-stake-consensus/

Well, well now I see I have the only consensus design that is not a PoS (Piece of Shit), Satoshi's design included.

I take the best from Satoshi and fix it all the way it should have been.

'Nuff said. I need to implement, so I can publish. Sooner the better.

I am so sleepy, been here discussing for entire afternoon and night and now it is 11am again. Zzzzzz....

One thing that stands out is your ego.

Honestly I am giving you my observation. You remind me of RealSolid (dev of solid coin) back in the day.

He would talk so highly of himself and amounted to nothing.

Perhaps instead of building yourself up, be humble and release your project when it is done and stop with the unnecessary ego pumping.

So what has exactly happened to the Bitshares price? I thought the Bitshares will be at the moon surely at this moment, at least the OP made it sound like that. He was very confident about it nevertheless.

I got into the Bitshares at 1800 satoshis, just after a launch. Rode up with them all the way to 9000 satoshis and sold everything between 5000-6000 when they started falling as a rock from 9000. I lived through the whole PTS - BTSX merger. There hasn't be a working wallet for over a year for this coin. And the new BTS wallet (not BTSX) is late about 9 months.

To sum up, for someone to come and to claim how BTS is going to the moon and has bigger volume than Ethereum, the OP is at least to say very cocky!
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September 10, 2015, 01:50:18 PM
 #157

So what has exactly happened to the Bitshares

The post isn't about Bitshares, it's about currently existing consensus mechanisms and their long term viability.  Neither PoW or PoS have a viable end game, so you can either walk away from crypto completely, or:

A)  Go with the only existing option which actually does have a viable end game, even when scaled to global reserve currency - DPoS

B)  Hope that Vitalik, Fuserleer, or Anonymint will some day release something better, but the consensus mechanism of all three projects is currently vaporware

I would honestly make the argument that whether by coincidence, or by design, DPoS actually functions better when scaled to world reserve currency than as a small market cap coin.  What other consensus mechanism has characteristics like that?  Each nation state easily integrates into it's delegate system, making it hard to question it's validity or sybil actors at that point.  Even the global equities exchange would run on the same platform at the same time.

I think it's possible Vitalik, Fuserleer, or Anonymint may invent a system that appeals more to the anti-govt anarchist than Bitcoin or Bitshares does at some point in the future, but I don't think any of their systems will scale to global reserve currency as efficiently, or while running global distributed exchanges on top of the same platform.

Before Anonymint responds, anything not on an exchange is vaporware.

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kelsey
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September 10, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
 #158

So what has exactly happened to the Bitshares

The post isn't about Bitshares, it's about currently existing consensus mechanisms and their long term viability.  Neither PoW or PoS have a viable end game, so you can either walk away from crypto completely, or:

A)  Go with the only existing option which actually does have a viable end game, even when scaled to global reserve currency - DPoS



sorry i'm missing how DPoS is a viable option (apart from being a passing buzz word)  Huh

i think the flaw is endemic to any ledger type option and thus that is what should be changed (which would solve a hell of alot of other issues too like, privacy, centralisation etc).

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September 10, 2015, 07:46:13 PM
 #159

sorry i'm missing how DPoS is a viable option (apart from being a passing buzz word)  Huh

You didn't read anything in the thread and decided to troll us with Litecoin...which is functionally identical to Bitcoin...

In other news, coindesk just made a good article saying what I said a month ago:

http://www.coindesk.com/why-bitcoin-creates-a-voluntary-tax-system/

If the anonymous function was relatively bulletproof, and reached large circulation and market cap, there would be a high probability of it abolishing the state, or the state as we know it at least.


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September 10, 2015, 10:38:54 PM
 #160

B)  Hope that Vitalik, Fuserleer, or Anonymint will some day release something better, but the consensus mechanism of all three projects is currently vaporware

I will accelerate. Multiple Sclerosis has gone into remission apparently.

I will sign off for now and be back online with some code.

formerly AnonyMint, TPTB_need_war, contagion, etc…
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