Why is bitcoin going for more than $20 on eBay?

[odolvlobo]

Can someone explain the risk of selling BTC on ebay? How is disputing a transaction on ebay different for bitcoins than for other items?

Also, it seems to me that if you send something in the mail (one of those print-your-own notes or a casascius coin, even) so that you can verify receipt, it should be fine.

[FLHippy]

Can someone explain the risk of selling BTC on ebay? How is disputing a transaction on ebay different for bitcoins than for other items?

Also, it seems to me that if you send something in the mail (one of those print-your-own notes or a casascius coin, even) so that you can verify receipt, it should be fine.

It's always a risk that someone will abuse the system and chargeback even after receiving a physical item.
If a chargeback happens, paypal freezes the funds until the issue is worked out.

Main reason for chargebacks... stolen account. Also the easiest thing to spot/avoid.

[odolvlobo]

Can someone explain the risk of selling BTC on ebay? How is disputing a transaction on ebay different for bitcoins than for other items?
Also, it seems to me that if you send something in the mail (one of those print-your-own notes or a casascius coin, even) so that you can verify receipt, it should be fine.

It's always a risk that someone will abuse the system and chargeback even after receiving a physical item.
If a chargeback happens, paypal freezes the funds until the issue is worked out.
Main reason for chargebacks... stolen account. Also the easiest thing to spot/avoid.

Thanks for that explanation. I'm interest in knowing why bitcoin is more susceptible to this abuse, especially if there is a physical item involved. How would this differ from other items? Is it because ebay or paypal can require a seller to accept a return?

[markm]

Mostly it is a matter of retail markup.

Sell something retail at maybe 40% markup, you only really lost 60% of the retail price when you get scammed.

If you know where I can but bitcoins at 60% of retail so I can resell them I'd love to know about it!

So basically whatever price you can buy them for, mark them up the usual kind of amount you charge on bags of sugar or cups of coffee or whatever, then add extra for the higher rate of scams on eBay compared to in your own shop with your shotgun or baseball bat under the counter...

-MarkM-

[FLHippy]

Can someone explain the risk of selling BTC on ebay? How is disputing a transaction on ebay different for bitcoins than for other items?
Also, it seems to me that if you send something in the mail (one of those print-your-own notes or a casascius coin, even) so that you can verify receipt, it should be fine.

It's always a risk that someone will abuse the system and chargeback even after receiving a physical item.
If a chargeback happens, paypal freezes the funds until the issue is worked out.
Main reason for chargebacks... stolen account. Also the easiest thing to spot/avoid.

Thanks for that explanation. I'm interest in knowing why bitcoin is more susceptible to this abuse, especially if there is a physical item involved. How would this differ from other items? Is it because ebay or paypal can require a seller to accept a return?

To be frank, bitcoin on eBay is often drug money.
Drugs make honest people do bad things and are a magnet for dishonest people.

[BitCoiner2012]

Here is what I don't understand - the chargebacks on PayPal I understand..

But what if I set up a CC gateway and accept payments, would it be the same?

What if on eBay I set up to sell a printed voucher and mail a physical representation?

[FLHippy]

Here is what I don't understand - the chargebacks on PayPal I understand..

But what if I set up a CC gateway and accept payments, would it be the same?

What if on eBay I set up to sell a printed voucher and mail a physical representation?

Even if you send a physical item, which is how I sell on eBay, there is still a chance someone can charge back.

Many PayPal chargebacks are actually initiated through the buyer's credit card company.
If you run your own CC gateway, people can still charge back, use stolen cards, etc.
If you run your own CC gateway, you lose what little seller protection that PayPal offers.
If you run your own CC gateway, you have more ability to dispute chargebacks but you also have to provide your own infrastructure to validate buyer addresses.
If you run your own CC gateway, eBay is not going to be as easy to work with to resolve disputes.

Not trying to talk you out of it, these are just things to consider before jumping into a coins for CC venture of any kind. There are some failed attempts at this service which you can find by searching this forum.

[BitCoiner2012]

Thanks. I wish you'd send me a huge in depth info about the bASIC as well if you had time. Thanks!

[salfter]

...(WTF does MtGox even mean).
...

MtGox means "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange". Enough said pro & con about that here previously...  

In terms though of being [put your adjective here], i think it's no worse than the name "eBay"...  

Very early on, eBay was known as AuctionWeb:

The company officially changed the name of its service from AuctionWeb to eBay in September 1997. Originally, the site belonged to Echo Bay Technology Group, Omidyar's consulting firm. Omidyar had tried to register the domain name echobay.com, but found it already taken by the Echo Bay Mines, a gold mining company, so he shortened it to his second choice, eBay.com.

I still have the registration email from when I signed up for AuctionWeb in May 1997.  The link given at the end, http://www.ebay.com/aw/, returns 404. How much work would it have been to put in a 301 redirect?  

[FLHippy]

I wonder if anyone currently employed at eBay even remembers auction web programmer turnover is 5 years on average.

[Desolator]

I'm always into scamming the scammers so here's what you do.  Grab a little camera and film the screen showing their e-mail with their BTC address.  Then open the client, copy and paste, and hit send.  If they initiate a chargeback, paypal or a CC processor asks you for any additional evidence you might have that proves you sent what they bought.  Send them the video.  Then that scamming jackass who initiated a chargeback or paypal complaint and thought his big pile of money was coming right back is totally out that money.

[FLHippy]

I'm always into scamming the scammers so here's what you do.  Grab a little camera and film the screen showing their e-mail with their BTC address.  Then open the client, copy and paste, and hit send.  If they initiate a chargeback, paypal or a CC processor asks you for any additional evidence you might have that proves you sent what they bought.  Send them the video.  Then that scamming jackass who initiated a chargeback or paypal complaint and thought his big pile of money was coming right back is totally out that money.

eBay/Paypal will not look at videos sent to them as proof of anything.

Once again... NEVER, EVER... (ever) SEND BITCOINS DIGITALLY THROUGH EBAY/PAYPAL SALES.

Always ship them a physical product. Always use the integrated shipping tools with PayPal.

There are several very nice printing options available with a multitude of designs.

http://print.printcoins.com by RobKhor is my favorite as it has the most designs available (and more on the way).
search github for aristus for a command line application which prints on a turing note.
bitinstant.com has a javascript based note printer.

[AngryCatfish]

You know it was funny finding mtgox years later after being a magic the gathering fan and using the site so long ago. Made me do a double take.

[moni3z]

ebay has enormous fees which is why it costs more, and the fact that you'll be scammed afterwards by paypal is probably a risk must equal reward factor in the price

if you sold bitcoin printouts or a CD/USB drive with the priv keys on it and physically shipped it to a validated paypal address you may have a leg or two to stand on but are still open to scams

[scrybe]

eBay sets the eBay-market price of bitcoins, MtGox sets the MtGox-market price of bitcoins. The market in the tiny town at the top of the loneliiest mountain, beyond the gorge of gargyles and the deepest pits of despair sets its own market-price of bitcoins.

"Market price" is, in short, a term that has two components, one of which is "market". So first you gotta find the scope/redius/locus or the market whose price you are trying to determine.

How many people participate in eBay?

How many in MtGox?

It can probably reasonably be argued that the market price of bitcoin is $20 but that there do exist niche geek clubs where one can, purportedly, and possibly not without some rigamarole, obtain them cheaper.

-MarkM-

I like that last line, it sounds so much better than "we are getting ripped off less."

One minor correction, independent sellers on eBay set the price without any guidance or assistance from eBay. On MtGox independent sellers can establish a price, and the current market price is available to all without effort.

Cheers

[BitcoinINV]

Just seen this and about died
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Bitcoin-1-0-BTC-Digital-Currency-/181001007600?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a248031f0

jeesh come buy coins from me lol

[FLHippy]

Just seen this and about died
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Bitcoin-1-0-BTC-Digital-Currency-/181001007600?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a248031f0

jeesh come buy coins from me lol

If you're just going to reverse the transaction anyway, $47 isn't that much money.

Could also be digital delivery sellers are getting scarce

[lebing]

Just seen this and about died
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Bitcoin-1-0-BTC-Digital-Currency-/181001007600?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a248031f0

jeesh come buy coins from me lol

If you're just going to reverse the transaction anyway, $47 isn't that much money.

Could also be digital delivery sellers are getting scarce

Yeah they are getting scarce because paypal is banning them 

[FLHippy]

Just seen this and about died
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Bitcoin-1-0-BTC-Digital-Currency-/181001007600?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a248031f0

jeesh come buy coins from me lol

If you're just going to reverse the transaction anyway, $47 isn't that much money.

Could also be digital delivery sellers are getting scarce

Yeah they are getting scarce because paypal is banning them 

I saw your post bout PayPal divorcing you. Can you tell me a little bit about your account?

My questions are...

Did you ONLY sell bitcoins?
How long were you a member for?
Did you only sell digital delivery?
You said you only had 3 chargebacks and many voluntary refunds. What time span did the chargebacks happen in? 1 month? 6 months? more?

In my past experience with PayPal I believe PayPal to be generally lazy. They only seem to act when someone complains. Do you feel a competitor may have "narked you out" ?

I used to run a seed selling business on eBay back in 2003-2007. I specialized in poison-garden seeds. Some of which can be considered drugs. I had that PayPal account closed over a $2 poppy seed packet sale and the complaint came from a concerned mother. I had refunded her payment when she contacted me, I was very pleasant with the woman and felt the issue was handled well by me and was shocked when PayPal canceled my account. After the 180 days, It took an additional 6 months to recover the frozen funds. At the time there was NO WAY to speak to anyone on the phone.

I'm really going to begin to worry if they are canceling paypal accounts for people who are shipping physical bitcoins (me).

On a more positive note, I got my paypal account back in the end by providing them a bunch of information and agreeing not to sell poisonous seeds anymore. Attempts to explain how lots of innocent vegetables have poison seeds fell on deaf ears at PayPal. They ALWAYS assume the seller to be a liar and the buyer to be a judge/jury/executioner. I have been an eBay seller since 1998 and have been using PayPal since it was X.com.

[lebing]

I saw your post bout PayPal divorcing you. Can you tell me a little bit about your account?

My questions are...

Did you ONLY sell bitcoins?
How long were you a member for?
Did you only sell digital delivery?
You said you only had 3 chargebacks and many voluntary refunds. What time span did the chargebacks happen in? 1 month? 6 months? more?

In my past experience with PayPal I believe PayPal to be generally lazy. They only seem to act when someone complains. Do you feel a competitor may have "narked you out" ?

I used to run a seed selling business on eBay back in 2003-2007. I specialized in poison-garden seeds. Some of which can be considered drugs. I had that PayPal account closed over a $2 poppy seed packet sale and the complaint came from a concerned mother. I had refunded her payment when she contacted me, I was very pleasant with the woman and felt the issue was handled well by me and was shocked when PayPal canceled my account. After the 180 days, It took an additional 6 months to recover the frozen funds. At the time there was NO WAY to speak to anyone on the phone.

I'm really going to begin to worry if they are canceling paypal accounts for people who are shipping physical bitcoins (me).

On a more positive note, I got my paypal account back in the end by providing them a bunch of information and agreeing not to sell poisonous seeds anymore. Attempts to explain how lots of innocent vegetables have poison seeds fell on deaf ears at PayPal. They ALWAYS assume the seller to be a liar and the buyer to be a judge/jury/executioner. I have been an eBay seller since 1998 and have been using PayPal since it was X.com.

Well, the auction was for a penny and the bitcoins were free (delivered digitally). I had two ebay accounts. The first hit a limit (new), so I tried to use my old one and that was when they sent the mail to me. All the activity happened during the course of two weeks.