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Author Topic: CryptoNote technical discussion and Chess Challenge  (Read 96046 times)
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dre1982
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October 06, 2015, 09:42:24 AM
 #101

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.



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October 06, 2015, 09:49:28 AM
 #102

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

Yes anyone can join. Pick a team and discussion of CryptoNote technology is welcome along with the game play.

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October 06, 2015, 10:20:12 AM
 #103

Voting Nc6
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October 06, 2015, 10:21:11 AM
 #104

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

Yes anyone can join. Pick a team and discussion of CryptoNote technology is welcome along with the game play.



Ok nice. Which team has the less players? Will join that team.



BIG WINNER!
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October 06, 2015, 10:25:58 AM
 #105

I guess BBR has fewer players now. The previous BBR move had 2 votes and the previous XMR move had 6.

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October 06, 2015, 10:27:20 AM
 #106

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

Yes anyone can join. Pick a team and discussion of CryptoNote technology is welcome along with the game play.



Ok nice. Which team has the less players? Will join that team.

Boolberry has fewer players. Welcome to the game and discussion!

So far both teams are playing the same as this game:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1802118&kpage=3
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October 06, 2015, 10:27:33 AM
 #107

I guess BBR has fewer players now. The previous BBR move had 2 votes and the previous XMR move had 6.



Ok I will join them.

My suggestion here is also Nc6. White has the play his queen and after that we can develop one of our other pieces.


Boolberry has fewer players. Welcome to the game and discussion!



Thanks.



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October 06, 2015, 10:32:53 AM
 #108

My suggestion here is also Nc6. White has the play his queen and after that we can develop one of our other pieces.

I like your plan. By forcing white to move his queen now he may put in on a square that interferes with the normal development of one of his minor pieces.
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October 06, 2015, 11:51:29 AM
 #109

http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/privacy-and-fungibility/

This is interesting but it lacks discussion of the possibility of pruning within CryptoNote:

"CryptoNote leaves a trail of transaction outputs that are ambiguously spent, you can’t tell if coins have been spent or not. You have to keep the UTXO set around forever. The use of lightning network for example would allow some increase in privacy, and move stuff off-chain at the same time."

Some good points:

"Do the programmers believe in privacy? Some people don’t believe that certain privacy should exist. There should be a bigger emphasis on explaining what the privacy is for, and why the general public needs it. Describing the necessity of fungibility may help.

Later retroactive deanonymization is a constant threat in the future. Weak privacy can burn users. Retroactive privacy is probably impossible."

Bitcoin fungibility needs to be addressed now to protect users privacy, not at some point in the distant future.

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October 06, 2015, 01:11:12 PM
 #110

http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/privacy-and-fungibility/

This is interesting but it lacks discussion of the possibility of pruning within CryptoNote:

"CryptoNote leaves a trail of transaction outputs that are ambiguously spent, you can’t tell if coins have been spent or not. You have to keep the UTXO set around forever. The use of lightning network for example would allow some increase in privacy, and move stuff off-chain at the same time."

Some good points:

"Do the programmers believe in privacy? Some people don’t believe that certain privacy should exist. There should be a bigger emphasis on explaining what the privacy is for, and why the general public needs it. Describing the necessity of fungibility may help.

Later retroactive deanonymization is a constant threat in the future. Weak privacy can burn users. Retroactive privacy is probably impossible."

Bitcoin fungibility needs to be addressed now to protect users privacy, not at some point in the distant future.

Are Confidential Transactions the most likely solution to bitcoin fungibility? Coinjoin is like a bandaid that is easily removed and Zerocash is still unproven.

I know that it would be a massive change, but is there any chance bitcoin might decide to switch to CryptoNote at some point, or at least offer it as a side chain?
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October 06, 2015, 03:15:23 PM
 #111

I know that it would be a massive change, but is there any chance bitcoin might decide to switch to CryptoNote at some point, or at least offer it as a side chain?

That is a political question as much as a technical one. My guess is that there is less than a 1% chance that it will happen on the main chain. CryptoNote may well be one of several side chain options at some point but that probably won't happen for a few more years.

Side chains still have technical problems (some impacting privacy) which need to be resolved.
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October 06, 2015, 04:47:22 PM
 #112

cross post from boolberry speculation thread because it cointains CryptoNote technical questions relating to privacy from jl777 (SuperNET). He mentions BBR and XMR specifically and has privacy concerns regarding transaction volume.

Is my memory correct that MRL thought about this at some point and made suggestions for how and when to mixin inputs to combat some of his data analysis concerns? I am referring to age in addition to # of mixins.

http://chainradar.com/bcn/blocks
http://chainradar.com/bbr/blocks
http://chainradar.com/xmr/blocks

can anybody comment on those three pages and what it indicates?

I have always been focused on usage, not speculative prices. With cryptonotes, the blockchain size is a key issue and while BBR has the pruning, if it has to be RAM resident that defeats the purpose to a large degree. I am very glad to see a DB version in testing as until that is out, the footprint is too big.

In the last year I have coded from scratch ramchains, MGW, InstantDEX, SuperNET agents, atomic wallet swaps, jumblr coinshuffle, pangea decentralized poker and PAX pegged asset exchange, currently ~100,000 lines of C code. This is just the code I personally wrote, not counting all the non-coding issues of managing a large decentralized community, nor of the contributions of dozens of other devs. I dont believe many people understand the full scale and scope of what I am working on, let alone of the entire SuperNET.

Due to my workload, I am not posting much on BTT, nor can I be proactively working on BBR integration into SuperNET at this point. That being said, I think what can be done is for a SuperNET agent to be created that allows for using BBR by all the SuperNET nodes. A SuperNET agent allows a set of node(s) to publish a service to all the other nodes in the network, this is how MGW is implemented. I think combining coinshuffle with a cryptonote would be quite a powerful combination.

A BBR agent would facilitate its usage, but really what is needed is more active involvement by BBR dev team in the SuperNET slack. If you think of SuperNET as a shopping mall, then the BBR store is there, but without BBR peoples, it will be an empty store.

James


James,

Thank you for your response. What is your specific question about the chainradar data? For each block it lists the timestamp, block size, number of transacations and hash. Difficult and emissions totals are there too. What are you wondering?

We are excited about the DB version too! I am glad to hear that it will also help with SuperNET.

I can pass along your comments about wishing more people were in SuperNET slack. We know you have been very busy over the last year. Can I ask why you decided it best to combine coinshuffle with CryptoNote instead of using CryptoNote alone?

I will cross post this to our announcement thread as well for more visibility.
look at the transaction volumes, even for BCN which is almost 10x the volumes of XMR and BBR has more transactions than XMR.
Now cryptonote tech is all fine, but let us imagine you are using a payphone in the australian outback and you are the only one that used a payphone that hour. just exactly how much privacy can cryptonote, or anything provide, when the transactions are ~10 per hour?

subtract out the mining tx and we have hardly any transactions. So if anybody seriously believes that even all the cryptonotes combined can provide privacy for 100 BTC of value over a small period of time, they are deluded. At current volumes, maybe over a month it will take, maybe more, havent done the calcs.

The jumblr coinshuffle i did works with BTC, LTC, BTCD, basically any bitcoin compatible, so it taps into the vast transaction pool. Now imagine being able to combine the privacy of cryptonote, with a realtime coinshuffle (no blockchain record of the shuffle), with the large transactions of BTC. In my opinion, only such a combined approach will provide any real privacy.

However, even that is not enough!

If there is a background level of 10 tx per hour, then it is a trivial matter to correlate any large spike. Depending on the resources the attacker has, even the IP address could be correlated if protective measures are not taken. If everything is on the blockchain,then down the road when QC computing is available, then the entire history becomes an open book. That is why offchain shuffling is a critical part of the solution.

Another critical part is simply having a lot of activity, say something like a blockchain enforced decentralized poker.

BTCD will have a unique method of delinking transactions where the initial recipient is very nearly 100% protected, even at the IP level. However, the initial sender is still linkable to the second recipient:

Alice -> Bob -> Charlie looks as Alice -> Charlie, with Bob nowhere visible on the blockchain, ever.

the coinshuffle makes the "->" a bit fuzzier, but this is an area where the more volumes, the better for all, especially if the "->" is using cryptonote as input and/or output. but once we do cross-currency shuffles/transfers, then it exposes the exchange between the two as a possible attack vector.

As you can see, to solve privacy for real not just on paper, it is a very difficult and large task. Without volumes, there is no privacy, that is why I am frontloading things that will create the volumes. What point to have perfect privacy on paper that in reality is trivial to brute force correlate due to small overall volumes?

James

Thank you for all the thought you put into this. I think I understand your concerns.  I have some ideas about the transaction data as it relates to privacy but will not make any comments on that quite yet. I think there are some people at Monero Research Labs who have thought about this and have some suggestions. Thanks again for your time.  Hopefully some BBR people will get more active in slack soon.
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October 06, 2015, 04:52:56 PM
 #113

cross post from boolberry speculation thread because it cointains CryptoNote technical questions relating to privacy from jl777 (SuperNET). He mentions BBR and XMR specifically and has privacy concerns regarding transaction volume.

Is my memory correct that MRL thought about this at some point and made suggestions for how and when to mixin inputs to combat some of his data analysis concerns? I am referring to age in addition to # of mixins.


IMHO his concern is not the privacy of cryptonote. its just that its traceable if you buy and sell a huge amount immediately.
the same concerns are true for a bitcoin sidechain which uses cryptonote.

imagine someone buys XMR for 100BTC
and uses xmr.to to pay a BTC address immediately.

with BTC blockchain analyses it is possible to link those transactions.

people who already own xmr (or bbr) beforehand are not affected as their transactions are to far away to link them.

so: monero users not affected Wink

EDIT: he said he wants to use coinshuffle to beat this. not sure how that would work as this has exact the same problems - except if he plans to shuffle all coins always which would force some more volume.

XMR || Monero || monerodice.net || xmr.to || mymonero.com || openalias.org || you think bitcoin is fungible? watch this
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October 06, 2015, 05:01:02 PM
 #114

cross post from boolberry speculation thread because it cointains CryptoNote technical questions relating to privacy from jl777 (SuperNET). He mentions BBR and XMR specifically and has privacy concerns regarding transaction volume.

Is my memory correct that MRL thought about this at some point and made suggestions for how and when to mixin inputs to combat some of his data analysis concerns? I am referring to age in addition to # of mixins.


IMHO his concern is not the privacy of cryptonote. its just that its traceable if you buy and sell a huge amount immediately.
the same concerns are true for a bitcoin sidechain which uses cryptonote.

imagine someone buys XMR for 100BTC
and uses xmr.to to pay a BTC address immediately.

with BTC blockchain analyses it is possible to link those transactions.

people who already own xmr (or bbr) beforehand are not affected as their transactions are to far away to link them.

so: monero users not affected Wink

EDIT: he said he wants to use coinshuffle to beat this. not sure how that would work as this has exact the same problems - except if he plans to shuffle all coins always which would force some more volume.

That makes sense to me. Basically if you withdraw a very large quantity (of BBR, XMR) from a known entity and then move it all again a few minutes later blockchain analysis and common sense could help form a very strong presumption (not proof) of the relation of those transactions.  The more transactions that occur and the longer the time period between such transactions the harder they would be to connect.
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October 06, 2015, 05:06:14 PM
 #115

Votes so far:

Nf6 (newb4now)
Nc6 (languagehasmeaning, dre1982, boolberry)

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October 06, 2015, 07:54:10 PM
Last edit: October 06, 2015, 08:50:14 PM by languagehasmeaning
 #116

Can anyone join this game or not? I am already playing the game Bitcointalk vs Unknown GM.

I hate losing chess games. It appears that the bitcointalk team (which dre1982 and I are part of) is likely to lose the game below. Come on Team Boolberry! Lets focus hard and try to do better in this game!


Your move bitcointalk. You have the white pieces
The current position is updated below:


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October 06, 2015, 10:17:53 PM
 #117

...
That makes sense to me. Basically if you withdraw a very large quantity (of BBR, XMR) from a known entity and then move it all again a few minutes later blockchain analysis and common sense could help form a very strong presumption (not proof) of the relation of those transactions.  The more transactions that occur and the longer the time period between such transactions the harder they would be to connect.

... but one does not move it right away. Instead one moves a different amount after a random period of time with a significant mixin.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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October 06, 2015, 10:21:27 PM
 #118

...
That makes sense to me. Basically if you withdraw a very large quantity (of BBR, XMR) from a known entity and then move it all again a few minutes later blockchain analysis and common sense could help form a very strong presumption (not proof) of the relation of those transactions.  The more transactions that occur and the longer the time period between such transactions the harder they would be to connect.

... but one does not move it right away. Instead one moves a different amount after a random period of time with a significant mixin.

i was talking BTC -> XMR -> BTC
if only XMR is involved (or any other cryptonote coin) its not a problem at all - even if moved immediately.

XMR || Monero || monerodice.net || xmr.to || mymonero.com || openalias.org || you think bitcoin is fungible? watch this
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October 06, 2015, 10:29:52 PM
 #119

...
That makes sense to me. Basically if you withdraw a very large quantity (of BBR, XMR) from a known entity and then move it all again a few minutes later blockchain analysis and common sense could help form a very strong presumption (not proof) of the relation of those transactions.  The more transactions that occur and the longer the time period between such transactions the harder they would be to connect.

... but one does not move it right away. Instead one moves a different amount after a random period of time with a significant mixin.

i was talking BTC -> XMR -> BTC
if only XMR is involved (or any other cryptonote coin) its not a problem at all - even if moved immediately.

I understood what you meant. The context here was for transactions between coins within SuperNET, some of which might not be anonymous. I think we are all in agreement about purely CryptoNote transactions.
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October 06, 2015, 10:31:29 PM
 #120

...
That makes sense to me. Basically if you withdraw a very large quantity (of BBR, XMR) from a known entity and then move it all again a few minutes later blockchain analysis and common sense could help form a very strong presumption (not proof) of the relation of those transactions.  The more transactions that occur and the longer the time period between such transactions the harder they would be to connect.

... but one does not move it right away. Instead one moves a different amount after a random period of time with a significant mixin.

I should have added more context. I think jl777 is concerned with immediate transfers between SuperNET coins, some of which are not anonymous.
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