FinCEN says you must be MSB if you sell bitcoins for $

[CharlesPonzi]

Hopefully we can one day buy and sell bitcoin p2p easily  and the regulators can go fuck themselves.

[1713998036]

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[repentance]

>Currency dealer or exchanger

So the US federal government has determined that Bitcoin is a currency?  That would be pretty big and AMAZING news.  The price is what $20,000 USD per BTC by now right.

You have court cases, cites, regulatory memorandums, administrative rulings ... ... ...

There are other regulations which apply to "value transfer" and "stored value".  That's why you can't just look at one bit of the regulations in isolation and claim that nothing can be applied to Bitcoin.  How you're actually using something often determines what laws apply.  Even with USD, which regulations apply depend on how they're being used.

It's easy to say "they can't apply regulation X because Bitcoin isn't Y", but it's not your ass which is on the line if you're wrong about that or you who'll have to appear in court and find the funds to challenge any ruling where they do try to apply regulation X.

Hopefully we can one day buy and sell bitcoin p2p easily  and the regulators can go fuck themselves.

People seem curiously reluctant to do that, though - possibly because at this point more users are interested in Bitcoin as a means of making a quick profit than are interested in using it as a P2P payment protocol.

[TheButterZone]

No regulatory would provide a single sentence answer and certainly wouldn't provide that answer over the phone.  The regulatory would be acting as an agent of the United States and any statement would have vast legal implications.  It could allow future lawsuits against the federal government or provide protection for a business in the event the federal government sought legal action.  It could even rise to criminal entrapment.

The government is allowed to lie to you under color of authority and claim "qualified immunity" to do so with impunity. Especially when it involves conduct you know to be legal, and which they claim to be illegal, by using "underground regulations".

[BitcoinINV]

If bitcoin is stored value so is wow gold lol.

[repentance]

I said to seek legal counsel.  However it is also easy for the OP to say they "can apply regulation X" and then provide no supporting evidence in any form and back it up with an utterly implausible story.  Trolling is easy.

I don't find it implausible per se, I'd just take anything I was told over the phone with a grain of salt because what you really want is a written statement quoting the specific regulations they maintain require you to be registered/licensed.  Once you have that, you know whether there are exemptions you can seek or whether you can mount a valid argument that those regulations shouldn't be applied to your particular circumstances.  More importantly, even though such communication isn't generally viewed as binding advice, it's difficult to get into trouble if you've followed it and it turns out to be wrong.

In my experience, regulators want a lot of information before they'll offer you an opinion because so much is determined by individual circumstances.  The opinion they give you is based entirely on the information you give them and it can be totally wrong if there's something you didn't mention because you thought it was unimportant or if the person you spoke to didn't ask the right questions.

This kind of shit might seem unimportant but it's stuff you need to consider if you don't want to find you conventional financial accounts suddenly shut down for suspicious activity.  Every time a business opens an account with a financial institution (including merchant accounts with CC providers) that institution does an AML risk assessment and if they don't like your level of risk or if your account activity indicates a higher level of risk than they first anticipated, they'll either dump you as a customer or start imposing increasingly onerous KYC requirements on you (and likely start filing a whole lot of SARs).

[DeathAndTaxes]

There are other regulations which apply to "value transfer" and "stored value".  That's why you can't just look at one bit of the regulations in isolation and claim that nothing can be applied to Bitcoin.  How you're actually using something often determines what laws apply.  Even with USD, which regulations apply depend on how they're being used.

I haven't looked at one bit of regulation in isolation.  I was merely responding to the post dealing with currency exchange/broker.  Nobody is saying Bitcoin isn't subject to any regulations.  As an example selling drugs for Bitcoins is just as illegal as selling them for dollars.  Still the thead is about MSB and the post I responded to was on currency exchanges/brokers.  BTW I don't think the over provisions apply but I wans't ingoring them, they simply were outside the context of the debate.

It's easy to say "they can't apply regulation X because Bitcoin isn't Y", but it's not your ass which is on the line if you're wrong about that or you who'll have to appear in court and find the funds to challenge any ruling where they do try to apply regulation X.

I said to seek legal counsel.  However it is also easy for the OP to say they "... they can apply regulation X because Bitcoin is ... (well no he didn't even do that)" and then provide no supporting evidence in any form and back it up with an utterly implausible story.  Trolling is easy.

[hazek]

I think all that happened here is the OP convincing the people at FinCEN that bitcoins are a currency when in fact there's no legal precedent affirming that. I wonder how many times he had to repeat digital currency before he got their halfassed response 

[repentance]

I think all that happened here is the OP convincing the people at FinCEN that bitcoins are a currency when in fact there's no legal precedent affirming that. I wonder how many times he had to repeat digital currency before he got their halfassed response 

You could be right about that.

I had a long conversation with a representative from FinCEN today about the requirements to register as a MSB. I'll let you know what I hear back. For a government organization they are awesome. My phone call was returned the same day. They asked a lot of really good questions about bitcoin and were really trying to understand the currency and how this kind of service would fit into it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110687.msg1240504#msg1240504

[interlagos]

... I gave FinCEN (Financial Crimes Enforcement Network) a call....

<sarcasm>
Is it just me or the name suggests that the Network's purpose is to Enforce Financial Crimes?
Well considering that their paper dollar pyramid is the biggest financial crime ever attempted in the history of humanity it all adds up now in my head.
</sarcasm>

[Bitcoin Oz]

Why would miners need a MSB license ?

[davout]

Money Services Business - The term "money services business" includes any person doing business, whether or not on a regular basis or as an organized business concern, in one or more of the following capacities:

(5) Money transmitter.  <<<<<<<<<<<<--------------------- That is what makes bitinstant

Ya, the first part of your comment is true forsure!

Money Service Business is not the same as a Money Transmitter and you can be an MSB and not an MTB

(4) Seller or redeemer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.  <---- This is what BitInstant is.

I knew it was something like that but I figured since you guys did bank to bank thats what it fell under I am sorry for the mistake.

No need to be sorry! Was just making sure the facts are correct.

Charlie, you seem, once again, to have a problem with facts.
You guys are registered as money transmitters, and not as "Seller or redeemer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.", and only in NY.

So it's either you don't even know what you're talking about, or you're lying.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

Charlie, you seem, once again, to have a problem with facts.
You guys are registered as money transmitters, and not as "Seller or redeemer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.", and only in NY.

So it's either you don't even know what you're talking about, or you're lying.

Davout,

That link has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

When we opened the business, under FinCEN we registered as an MTB.
3 months ago we changed our position after extensive legal research and changed it.
It can take 3-6 months for FinCEN to change it in their system.

No one is lying, nor wrong.
We've done the most extensive analyses and work with regulators every day on 3 different levels.

You are free to call our lawyers if you want.

-Charlie

[BitcoinINV]

Like I just told someone else, When the man with gun and the badge comes and say do this, as long as you say "yes sir" you should be ok. Its still a really gray area. It will take a landmark case about virtual currency's to set this in stone.

[Boussac]

It will take a landmark case about virtual currency's to set this in stone.

Since 1973 (the end of the international gold standard), ALL currencies are virtual.
Only bankers want to use the words "virtual" currency applied to anything that amounts to a threat to their monopoly over fiat money creation.
Anyway, bitcoin is not a currency until someone finds an issuer.

[CharlesPonzi]

Like I just told someone else, When the man with gun and the badge comes and say do this, as long as you say "yes sir" you should be ok. Its still a really gray area. It will take a landmark case about virtual currency's to set this in stone.

Just tell them its a lot easier to bribe cops with bitcoin.

[BitcoinINV]

Like I just told someone else, When the man with gun and the badge comes and say do this, as long as you say "yes sir" you should be ok. Its still a really gray area. It will take a landmark case about virtual currency's to set this in stone.

Just tell them its a lot easier to bribe cops with bitcoin.

Don't have to he is reading i'm sure lol

[moni3z]

Haven't seen any legal gold traders in Canada with MSB's and they operate openly selling gold to Americans cross border. Prob should have spent the last 2 years pushing for bitcoin to be a commodity instead of 'a currency' which released the regulatory vultures.

If your commodity is apple and tomatoes and you trade them mail order for money do you need a MSB license?

[repentance]

If your commodity is apple and tomatoes and you trade them mail order for money do you need a MSB license?

No, but if you are selling the contracts for supply of those items or offering people the opportunity to invest in those contracts then you likely need some kind of financial services licence (a money service business is only one type of financial service provider, there are many others) and are probably required to issue a product disclosure statement/prospectus.

Canadian rules relating to precious metal dealers can be found here.

The following summary of the legislative requirements under the PCMLTFA applies to you if you are a dealer in precious metals and stones.

A dealer in precious metals and stones means an individual or an entity that buys or sells precious metals, precious stones or jewellery, in the course of its business activities. You are subject to the requirements listed below if you ever engage in the purchase or sale of precious metals, precious stones or jewellery in an amount of $10,000 or more in a single transaction. In other words, you are not subject to these requirements if you engage only in purchases or sales of less than $10,000 per transaction.

http://www.fintrac-canafe.gc.ca/re-ed/dpms-eng.asp

[moni3z]

If your commodity is apple and tomatoes and you trade them mail order for money do you need a MSB license?

No, but if you are selling the contracts for supply of those items or offering people the opportunity to invest in those contracts then you likely need some kind of financial services licence (a money service business is only one type of financial service provider, there are many others) and are probably required to issue a product disclosure statement/prospectus.

Canadian rules relating to precious metal dealers can be found here.

The following summary of the legislative requirements under the PCMLTFA applies to you if you are a dealer in precious metals and stones.

A dealer in precious metals and stones means an individual or an entity that buys or sells precious metals, precious stones or jewellery, in the course of its business activities. You are subject to the requirements listed below if you ever engage in the purchase or sale of precious metals, precious stones or jewellery in an amount of $10,000 or more in a single transaction. In other words, you are not subject to these requirements if you engage only in purchases or sales of less than $10,000 per transaction.

http://www.fintrac-canafe.gc.ca/re-ed/dpms-eng.asp

Interesting, wonder if this also applies to a bitcoin -> gold cashout service with no ID

[MPOE-PR]

Fuck them! Bitcoins in fact are digital signatures. You sign integer and recipients public key with your private key. So Bitcoins are more like service like SSL root authority instead of money like paypal.

P.S. next time call DEA and ask them what license you need to sell drugs on Silk Road. The future of Bitcoin is illegal that might destroy current establishment and governments. Again, fuck the government, fuck any regulations and  fuck them all! You have the tool in your computer - Bitcoin!

Don't take off now, Mr.