[BBR] Boolberry Speculation

[boolberry]

This is an unmoderated community discussion of Boolberry trading and price speculation

Please avoid off topic issues such as extensive discussion or promotion of other coins.  Every post should either raise a question, idea or add something of value.  Non-substantive comments such as "Boolberry is horrible" or "Boolberry will take over the world" do not add value to the discussion.

Many factors influence trading volume and price:
Where will Boolberry be used? How large is its potential market? Have questions about existing features? Have ideas for new features or the direction of Boolberry? What to know what makes Boolberry unique? How will mining, marketing and future development impact Boolberry?

Boolberry links of interest:
Announcement:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=577267
Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boolberry/
Exchanges:
https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_bbr
https://bittrex.com/Market/?MarketName=BTC-BBR
https://bter.com/trade/BBR_BTC
Merchants/Games:
https://cointopay.com/
http://popboolr.com/originaltweets
GitHub:
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/tree/db
Downloads:
http://boolberry.com/downloads.html

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[owm123]

bbr, just like xmr, is also cryptonote. Thus, I wonder, what are technical differences between bbr and xmr?

[languagehasmeaning]

bbr, just like xmr, is also cryptonote. Thus, I wonder, what are technical differences between bbr and xmr?

You are right that they have a lot in common. Here are a few of the biggest technical differences:
1. Working, Official GUI
http://boolberry.com/downloads.html
Monero currently has several unofficial GUI's and a web wallet

2. Minimum mixin# solution (already implemented):
http://boolberry.com/files/Boolberry_Solves_CryptoNote_Flaws.pdf
Monero has its own plans for how to address this issue:
https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0004.pdf


3. Blockchain bloat solution (already implemented):
http://boolberry.org/files/Boolberry_Reduces_Blockchain_Bloat.pdf


4. Emission Schedule:
Slower than Monero


5. Similar to Monero, Boolberry is currently testing new db code:
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/Boolberry/tree/db
feedback from smooth and crypto zoidberg:

what makes the leveldb integration at boolberry different than what monero is doing? Or it is somewhat similar?

The leveldb here is only being used to store list of blocks, not all the other in-memory stuff that makes up a node (transactions, block index, output indexes, etc.). Monero moves all that stuff to the DB.

Advantages of BBR approach:

1. Simpler to implement and get right
2. Some operations still using the in-memory data may be more efficient

Disadvantages of BBR approach:

3. Higher remaining memory usage (but with BBR's pruning and lower volume of usage, probably not too bad)


4. Some possibility of inconsistencies between the two data stores in-mem and database (clintar's fix addresses one instance of this)

Agree with this, actually this is the main reason why DB implementaton stil in branch. The way we decided to go here - is to step-by-step move parts of storage from boost serialization to leveldb - is way that let us easely reduce memory usage, but at other hand we need always have consistent state of both parts: serialized storage and leveldb.
The problem is that leveldb write changes right after every operations (there are different options, but still the idea of level db is like this). Clintar made workaround for current implementation, but this won't work if i'll move other containers to leveldb(or the workaround become be very-very complicated). So now it's only betta.
Leveldb have some kind of "snapshots", this could work but db can't be reverted to this snapshots, so it useless i guess.

The only way i see now is to move all stored data to leveldb and use batch writes to keep data consistent.

5. Still requires the periodic "save blockchain" timer, which pauses many daemon functions during the saving process (though the process should be faster without needing to save the block list)

#1 is pretty significant IMO. Given that these projects are all works in progress, building the ultimate solution on the first go is not aways the best approach.

EDIT: added #5

[rdnkjdi]

I've been gone for a long time - is Boolberry still part of Supernet?

[languagehasmeaning]

I've been gone for a long time - is Boolberry still part of Supernet?

Crypto Zoidberg did the work a long time ago on the Boolberry end. We are waiting for SuperNet to integrate it:

Proof that BBR is still going to be an important part of supernet (from today):
you can join at :
https://sprnt.slack.com

bbreconomy
how is teleport integration doing?
bbreconomy
many cryptonote fans are excited about its inclusion in supernet
bbreconomy
I think a lot of monero believers will join supernet too if bbr is included soon
bbreconomy
it has a nice gui already unlike xmr and supernet is creating a nice economy
jl777
some details of the teleport have changed, but once it is finalized, then there will be a specific task for the BBR to perform
jl777
I am envisioning a trustless mixing using BBR ringsigs, so to combine teleport, mixing and ring sigs
bbreconomy
thanks jI777. glad to know you still plan to feature BBR for ring sigs

It is unreasonable to expect users to jump through proprietary hoops like Slack in order to obtain updates about a project previously promoted publicly.

Many months after jl777's announcement, BBR integration is still in the "envisioning" stage.  Just like everything else to do with SuperNet...lots of vaporware and visions but nothing real and working to show for it.

Not entirely vaporware, in terms of BBR at least:

CZ mentioned a while back that the integration was done on the BBR side and that appears to be the case:

https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/14eba55b4a496f2f04f5ad33891fe9f172b7d3db
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/8fe1aa050c49dbabd3e09d82473b0bc1b113fdc7
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/28995ed64f844891c11a14e268550797e4cd5e08
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/efa3e9fa03ad6427fee335b4f466ab45ef079c7f
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d99dc8018f955989a76e43af0b62424a4e84767b
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d188d7a053e6124d0006eebeddafcff332b79cb1

I do not know what is going on from the "SuperNET" side, nor do I care.

Maybe we should speculate on the importance of SuperNet to Boolberry. How much do you think it matters?

[smooth]

LOL at how many times I've been quoted on the first page (not counting language in the OP). Anyway, it seems the information I posted has been of value.

Best of luck with the new thread. I will watch and answer questions when I have something to add (might even ask a few).

[languagehasmeaning]

LOL at how many times I've been quoted on the first page (not counting language in the OP). Anyway, it seems the information I posted has been of value.

Best of luck with the new thread. I will watch and answer questions when I have something to add (might even ask a few).

I think it is fair to say that you are quoted a lot because people respect you as a developer of both Monero and Aeon.

[languagehasmeaning]

I speculate that there are some more chess players out there who could help us in this game:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1190988.0

[SalimNagamato]

I've been gone for a long time - is Boolberry still part of Supernet?

Crypto Zoidberg did the work a long time ago on the Boolberry end. We are waiting for SuperNet to integrate it:

Proof that BBR is still going to be an important part of supernet (from today):
you can join at :
https://sprnt.slack.com

bbreconomy
how is teleport integration doing?
bbreconomy
many cryptonote fans are excited about its inclusion in supernet
bbreconomy
I think a lot of monero believers will join supernet too if bbr is included soon
bbreconomy
it has a nice gui already unlike xmr and supernet is creating a nice economy
jl777
some details of the teleport have changed, but once it is finalized, then there will be a specific task for the BBR to perform
jl777
I am envisioning a trustless mixing using BBR ringsigs, so to combine teleport, mixing and ring sigs
bbreconomy
thanks jI777. glad to know you still plan to feature BBR for ring sigs

It is unreasonable to expect users to jump through proprietary hoops like Slack in order to obtain updates about a project previously promoted publicly.

Many months after jl777's announcement, BBR integration is still in the "envisioning" stage.  Just like everything else to do with SuperNet...lots of vaporware and visions but nothing real and working to show for it.

Not entirely vaporware, in terms of BBR at least:

CZ mentioned a while back that the integration was done on the BBR side and that appears to be the case:

https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/14eba55b4a496f2f04f5ad33891fe9f172b7d3db
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/8fe1aa050c49dbabd3e09d82473b0bc1b113fdc7
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/28995ed64f844891c11a14e268550797e4cd5e08
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/efa3e9fa03ad6427fee335b4f466ab45ef079c7f
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d99dc8018f955989a76e43af0b62424a4e84767b
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d188d7a053e6124d0006eebeddafcff332b79cb1

I do not know what is going on from the "SuperNET" side, nor do I care.

Maybe we should speculate on the importance of SuperNet to Boolberry. How much do you think it matters?

that what i was thinking
boolberry shouldn't hide behind SuperNet, or be depend on SuperNet
it is a good high tech currency on it's own.
I don't know if you mentioned it but also the mining algo. is very GPU/CPU friendly... i don't know if its even possible to create ASIC miner for wild keccak. maybe possible but too expensive
there is also the cool feature of name to wallet address (something like IOC try), but with boolberry it's part of the blockchain data so its cooler and decentralized

[newb4now]

I've been gone for a long time - is Boolberry still part of Supernet?

Crypto Zoidberg did the work a long time ago on the Boolberry end. We are waiting for SuperNet to integrate it:

Proof that BBR is still going to be an important part of supernet (from today):
you can join at :
https://sprnt.slack.com

bbreconomy
how is teleport integration doing?
bbreconomy
many cryptonote fans are excited about its inclusion in supernet
bbreconomy
I think a lot of monero believers will join supernet too if bbr is included soon
bbreconomy
it has a nice gui already unlike xmr and supernet is creating a nice economy
jl777
some details of the teleport have changed, but once it is finalized, then there will be a specific task for the BBR to perform
jl777
I am envisioning a trustless mixing using BBR ringsigs, so to combine teleport, mixing and ring sigs
bbreconomy
thanks jI777. glad to know you still plan to feature BBR for ring sigs

It is unreasonable to expect users to jump through proprietary hoops like Slack in order to obtain updates about a project previously promoted publicly.

Many months after jl777's announcement, BBR integration is still in the "envisioning" stage.  Just like everything else to do with SuperNet...lots of vaporware and visions but nothing real and working to show for it.

Not entirely vaporware, in terms of BBR at least:

CZ mentioned a while back that the integration was done on the BBR side and that appears to be the case:

https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/14eba55b4a496f2f04f5ad33891fe9f172b7d3db
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/8fe1aa050c49dbabd3e09d82473b0bc1b113fdc7
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/28995ed64f844891c11a14e268550797e4cd5e08
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/efa3e9fa03ad6427fee335b4f466ab45ef079c7f
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d99dc8018f955989a76e43af0b62424a4e84767b
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d188d7a053e6124d0006eebeddafcff332b79cb1

I do not know what is going on from the "SuperNET" side, nor do I care.

Maybe we should speculate on the importance of SuperNet to Boolberry. How much do you think it matters?

that what i was thinking
boolberry shouldn't hide behind SuperNet, or be depend on SuperNet
it is a good high tech currency on it's own.
I don't know if you mentioned it but also the mining algo. is very GPU/CPU friendly... i don't know if its even possible to create ASIC miner for wild keccak. maybe possible but too expensive
there is also the cool feature of name to wallet address (something like IOC try), but with boolberry it's part of the blockchain data so its cooler and decentralized

You are right that Boolberry has great tech on its own now. If SuperNet brings more visibility that is just a bonus. Is this the Boolberry address feature you mean?

Wallet addresses aliasing: Any address can be linked to a symbolic name and be used globally. By being built into the blockchain, these aliases are globally unique (original), but do not require a central naming authority to maintain.

[shojayxt]

Maybe we should speculate on the importance of SuperNet to Boolberry. How much do you think it matters?

I speculate that Supernet will have nothing to do with BBR's success or failure as a cryptocurrency.  While I was an early proponent of Supernet I have since become disillusioned with the project.  If it eventually succeeds and does what it promised many many months ago then great.  Currently I am not following nor do I care to follow the Supernet saga that is apparently still ongoing.  BBR did receive an initial pump when it was announced that it would be included in the Supernet platform but that has since evaporated just as the initial value of Supernet has declined significantly from it's initial pricing.

BBR suffers from the same problem that all cryptonote coins suffer from.  It's not bitcoin compatible and not easily incorporated into any of the current cryptocurrency payment processing schemes.  Until a legitimate payment processor devotes the time and resources necessary to accept cryptonote coins, nothing is going to change as far as adoption is concerned. 

[XMRpromotions]

Maybe we should speculate on the importance of SuperNet to Boolberry. How much do you think it matters?

I speculate that Supernet will have nothing to do with BBR's success or failure as a cryptocurrency.  While I was an early proponent of Supernet I have since become disillusioned with the project.  If it eventually succeeds and does what it promised many many months ago then great.  Currently I am not following nor do I care to follow the Supernet saga that is apparently still ongoing.  BBR did receive an initial pump when it was announced that it would be included in the Supernet platform but that has since evaporated just as the initial value of Supernet has declined significantly from it's initial pricing.

BBR suffers from the same problem that all cryptonote coins suffer from.  It's not bitcoin compatible and not easily incorporated into any of the current cryptocurrency payment processing schemes.  Until a legitimate payment processor devotes the time and resources necessary to accept cryptonote coins, nothing is going to change as far as adoption is concerned. 

Shapeshift has incorporated Monero and is building new tools to better support merchants.  It should not be that hard for them to incorporate Boolberry also if they can be convinced that sufficient demand exists.

[chennan]

So in your guys opinion, do you think that Boolberry will be able to run along side with Monero in the long run; or is this a cut throat match for a "best cryptonote" title that will enable said coin to be the "go to" coin for private transactions?  I can't see a scenario where two coins with essentially the same design that fills a very specific niche to both be successful in the long run of things.

[LucyLovesCrypto]

So in your guys opinion, do you think that Boolberry will be able to run along side with Monero in the long run; or is this a cut throat match for a "best cryptonote" title that will enable said coin to be the "go to" coin for private transactions?  I can't see a scenario where two coins with essentially the same design that fills a very specific niche to both be successful in the long run of things.

In the long run the most successful anonymous coin will probably obtain the majority of the anonymous transaction market.  Right now Monero has a clear lead because of economies of scale.  Even if Monero remains the leader the technical differences of Boolberry may allow it to become very successful. LTC is a big success despite the dominance of BTC.

Today merchant acceptance is the biggest hurdle for Boolberry to solve. Clearly a niche exists for Boolberry today since some users prefer an official GUI and do not have enough RAM to run Monero if they are not willing to compile the current source code themselves. Some of technical advantages of BBR may be temporary (Monero will eventually have an official GUI and a minimum mixin). Other differences may persist (blockchain pruning has advantages and potential risks). Continued development is essential for all CryptoNote coins to suit the needs of the market.

Comparing the market caps of Monero and Boolberry along with the tech makes me feel like Boolberry has massive upside. Risk of complete loss absolutely exists if economies of scale are never built. Despite its attractive mining rewards due to a slower emission schedule, the BBR hash rate remains extremely low compared to XMR.

[newb4now]

So in your guys opinion, do you think that Boolberry will be able to run along side with Monero in the long run; or is this a cut throat match for a "best cryptonote" title that will enable said coin to be the "go to" coin for private transactions?  I can't see a scenario where two coins with essentially the same design that fills a very specific niche to both be successful in the long run of things.

By definition anyone who owns some Boolberry probably thinks it has some chance to succeed. Since most people who own Boolberry also own some Monero (I am guessing) they either think that there is room for more that one CryptoNote coin or they are hedging their bets.

[newb4now]

4. Emission Schedule:
Slower than Monero

It might be useful to make a graph comparing BBR emission to other CryptoNote coins instead of the graph showing how the emission speed compared to bitcoin.

[languagehasmeaning]

It might be useful to make a graph comparing BBR emission to other CryptoNote coins instead of the graph showing how the emission speed compared to bitcoin.

Hopefully this will help:
Both Boolberry and Monero have a max supply of about 18.4 million (18446744.073709551615)
Boolberry block times are 120 seconds vs 60 seconds for Monero
The bolded blue below will show that Boolberry emission is twice as slow as Monero.
Monero emission is slower that Duck/Dark/DigitalNote. I can provide additional graphs to compare with other CryptoNote coins if requested.

Boolberry:
base_reward=(EMISSION_SUPPLY - already_generated_coins) >> EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER;
if(block_cumulative_size <= median)
  reward = base_reward;
else
  reward = (base_reward*(block_cumulative_size * (2 * median - block_cumulative_size)))/(median2)

Reward Emissions for 10 years:

    Day       Block Reward       Generated Coins
    0         17.416264000000    0%  0.000000000000
    183       15.359717000000    11% 2179953.768778000000
    366       13.546011000000    22% 4102274.357256000000
    549       11.946471000000    31% 5797411.627041000000
    732       10.535808000000    39% 7292216.288657000000
    915       9.291719000000     46% 8610365.351676000000
    1098      8.194534000000     52% 9772737.277389000000
    1281      7.226907000000     58% 10797742.784839000000
    1464      6.373539000000     63% 11701616.548800000000
    1647      5.620939000000     67% 12498674.414764000000
    1830      4.957208000000     71% 13201540.208042000000
    2013      4.371851000000     74% 13821345.733154000000
    2196      3.855614000000     77% 14367907.128588000000
    2379      3.400335000000     80% 14849880.376022000000
    2562      2.998817000000     82% 15274898.428772000000
    2745      2.644711000000     84% 15649692.128002000000
    2928      2.332418000000    86% 15980196.828462000000
    3111      2.057001000000     88% 16271646.419271000000
    3294      1.814107000000     89% 16528656.232190000000
    3477      1.599893000000     90% 16755296.148816000000



Monero:
Block reward = (M - A) * 2-20 * 10-12, where A = current circulation. Roughly 86% mined in 4 years

[boolberry]

Some new readers of this thread may be interested in seeing what the official GUI looks like. Here are a few screenshots:

[smooth]

base_reward=(EMISSION_SUPPLY - already_generated_coins) >> EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER;

If a cryptonote coin is using the original emissions structure, then the key variable here is EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER which (along with the block time) determines the rate of emission. Each integer increment represents a factor of two in emissions speed. In some of the code bases it is called EMISSION_SPEED_FACTOR.

So for example, Bytecoin uses 18 and Boolberry uses 20, making Boolberry 4x slower than Bytecoin. After adjusting for the block time, Monero is the equivalent of 19, putting it right in the middle of the two. Quazarcoin uses 21, so twice as slow as Boolberry. If I recall correctly Bitcoin (while using a different structure) is somewhere between 20 and 21.

Duck/dark/digitalnote uses a different structure altogether but is much, much faster than the others.

[LucyLovesCrypto]

base_reward=(EMISSION_SUPPLY - already_generated_coins) >> EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER;

If a cryptonote coin is using the original emissions structure, then the key variable here is EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER which (along with the block time) determines the rate of emission. Each integer increment represents a factor of two in emissions speed. In some of the code bases it is called EMISSION_SPEED_FACTOR.

So for example, Bytecoin uses 18 and Boolberry uses 20, making Boolberry 4x slower than Bytecoin. After adjusting for the block time, Monero is the equivalent of 19, putting it right in the middle of the two. Quazarcoin uses 21, so twice as slow as Boolberry. If I recall correctly Bitcoin (while using a different structure) is somewhere between 20 and 21.

Duck/dark/digitalnote uses a different structure altogether but is much, much faster than the others.

That explanation really makes things easier to understand. Gracias