This is the privatization of Bitcoin - it already happened

[knight22]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

[brg444]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

You're really asking too much from him...

[brg444]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

Quite the opposite, they have to create viable commercial products in order to generate revenues so that they can continue to get paid for the numerous innovations and scaling progress they bring tot the Bitcoin ecosystem.

[xyzzy099]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

So what is your solution?  You don't trust devs that are free to develop whatever they want, so what should be done?  Should we give Bitcoin development to some theoretically uncorruptible government of your choice, who will always do the right thing (in your opinion)?  Or should we just wait and let nature take its course, and see what happens?

[knight22]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

So what is your solution?  You don't trust devs that are free to develop whatever they want, so what should be done?  Should we give Bitcoin development to some theoretically uncorruptible government of your choice, who will always do the right thing (in your opinion)?  Or should we just wait and let nature take its course, and see what happens?

I don't know what should be done but what I know is that if Core devs successfully impede on scaling the bitcoin blockchain for their own profits then one can conclude that bitcoin has been hijacked and is under control of a private company so the whole experiment is a failure.   

[xyzzy099]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

So what is your solution?  You don't trust devs that are free to develop whatever they want, so what should be done?  Should we give Bitcoin development to some theoretically uncorruptible government of your choice, who will always do the right thing (in your opinion)?  Or should we just wait and let nature take its course, and see what happens?

I don't know what should be done but what I know is that if Core devs successfully impede on scaling the bitcoin blockchain for their own profits then one can conclude that bitcoin has been hijacked and is under control of a private company so the whole experiment is a failure.  

If it is possible for Bitcoin to be hijacked in the way you describe, then it deserves to die.

Personally, I think the imminent death of Bitcoin is being exaggerated a bit these days.

[knight22]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

So what is your solution?  You don't trust devs that are free to develop whatever they want, so what should be done?  Should we give Bitcoin development to some theoretically uncorruptible government of your choice, who will always do the right thing (in your opinion)?  Or should we just wait and let nature take its course, and see what happens?

I don't know what should be done but what I know is that if Core devs successfully impede on scaling the bitcoin blockchain for their own profits then one can conclude that bitcoin has been hijacked and is under control of a private company so the whole experiment is a failure.  

If it is possible for Bitcoin to be hijacked in the way you describe, then it deserves to die.

Personally, I think the imminent death of Bitcoin is being exaggerated a bit these days.

Maybe but things are already heading the way I am describing it though so its not looking good...

Ultimately I think the bitcoin blockchain will find a way to scale even if Core/Blockstream are trying hard to avoid that but this is yet to be seen. 

[RawDog]

Yes, Blockstream is working hard to push users away from the permisionless bitcoin blockchain to their private permissioned sidechains to make a profit.

Things are getting ugly.

This would be totally fine and understandable, except...

They interfered with the 8MB debate.  AND, they used dirty tricks too.  They used censorship.  They used DDOS. They SLAMMED Gavin. 

Everyone has the right to build useful added services.  However, Blockstream had a huge personal interest to crush 8MB - and they did.  This was probably against the overall good of Bitcoin. 

Are you the newest paid retard sponsored to spread lies and misinformation known and documented facts here?

You need to update your talking points.

FTFY

No shit.  Totally known and well documented.  Theymos is fully bullshit when it comes to censorship of things he doesn't agree with.  Blockstream is 100% out of business if 8MB comes.  Those guys only block BIP101 to cause a greater need for their for-fee permissioned side chain.  Fact.  Don't believe me?  Look it up on Factum.

[brg444]

Yes, Blockstream is working hard to push users away from the permisionless bitcoin blockchain to their private permissioned sidechains to make a profit.

Things are getting ugly.

This would be totally fine and understandable, except...

They interfered with the 8MB debate.  AND, they used dirty tricks too.  They used censorship.  They used DDOS. They SLAMMED Gavin. 

Everyone has the right to build useful added services.  However, Blockstream had a huge personal interest to crush 8MB - and they did.  This was probably against the overall good of Bitcoin. 

Are you the newest paid retard sponsored to spread lies and misinformation known and documented facts here?

You need to update your talking points.

FTFY

No shit.  Totally known and well documented.  Theymos is fully bullshit when it comes to censorship of things he doesn't agree with.  Blockstream is 100% out of business if 8MB comes.  Those guys only block BIP101 to cause a greater need for their for-fee permissioned side chain.  Fact.  Don't believe me?  Look it up on Factum.

I know the facts, you retard, and 8MB only favors Blockstream's business plan.

You are absolutely clueless, please abandon your own thread before you cause even more damage to your reputation.

[xyzzy099]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently do in order to move their clients coins?

We perfectly understand that this first sidechain requires permission to use it. Thanks.

You do realize that this is a commercial service, that these exchanges are free to use or not, at will, right?

Yes and I also do understand that most Core devs are being on the Blockstream pay roll and are not interested to make the bitcoin permissionless blockchain scalable so their company can make a profit. Thanks.

So what is your solution?  You don't trust devs that are free to develop whatever they want, so what should be done?  Should we give Bitcoin development to some theoretically uncorruptible government of your choice, who will always do the right thing (in your opinion)?  Or should we just wait and let nature take its course, and see what happens?

I don't know what should be done but what I know is that if Core devs successfully impede on scaling the bitcoin blockchain for their own profits then one can conclude that bitcoin has been hijacked and is under control of a private company so the whole experiment is a failure.  

If it is possible for Bitcoin to be hijacked in the way you describe, then it deserves to die.

Personally, I think the imminent death of Bitcoin is being exaggerated a bit these days.

Maybe but things are already heading the way I am describing it though so its not looking good...

Ultimately I think the bitcoin blockchain will find a way to scale even if Core/Blockstream are trying hard to avoid that but this is yet to be seen. 

I agree with you.  I also believe that Bitcoin will evolve as necessary.

I'm not as sure as you that Blockstream (and the Bitcoin devs that work for them) are acting in a purely self-serving manner here.

It seems to me that it is entirely possible that the Blockstream way of scaling Bitcoin may be a perfectly legitimate way to address the problem without sacrificing decentralization - which in my opinion, is an even more important consideration than scaling.

It seems wrong to me to presume that Blockstream is acting in a self-serving manner just because the possibility of conflict of interest exists.  We should at least give them some benefit of the doubt.  I think a good argument can be made that their solution is the best solution proposed, in that it addresses scalability AND preserves decentralization of the main Bitcoin network.  But I understand that some people disagree, and I am happy to just wait and see what happens as nature takes its course.

You may be right, and this may be the end.  But I remain optimistic for now.

[Blawpaw]

It already happened!

http://www.coindesk.com/blockstream-commercial-sidechain-bitcoin-exchanges/

Blockstream really needed to prevent BigBlocks - and successfully did.  Now, there is greater need for their offering: side chains.  Side chains which they control, and they charge fees to use. 

This is just the start.  There will be many, many more features of 'advanced systems' pushed out of the core, pushed away from 'free', and controlled by profiteers. 

Why did everyone listen to Blockstream when they so vigorously fought 8MB?  now everyone gets to pay them fees!!!  With 8MB blocks, no extra fees!

Bitcoin is fucked now.

Hell... this can't be happening. It seems we will have a new struggle in our hands. If this so happens it can be the beginning of Bitcoin's demise.

[RawDog]

Hell... this can't be happening. It seems we will have a new struggle in our hands. If this so happens it can be the beginning of Bitcoin's demise.

It already happened!

Blockstream has investors - $21 million.  Blockchain wants to charge fees and centralize their private chains.  Investors want returns.  The core devs associated with Blockstream are full of bullshit when they say there is no conflict.  8MB is a great idea for everyone - except those involved with Blockstream because their project won't make money if we go to 8MB.

I know the facts, you retard, and 8MB only favors Blockstream's business plan.

You are absolutely clueless, please abandon your own thread before you cause even more damage to your reputation.

This guy is just an idiot who says 8MB favors BS.  That is full bullshit.  Blockstream is totally dead and unneeded if bitcoin has 8MB blocks.  That is why only the blockstream core devs pushed Gavin/Hearn away. 

[xyzzy099]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would you rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently use in order to move their clients coins?

The exchanges aren't going to use anything that is brand new and fluctuates, how many variables are we going to tie to an exchange? Like I said a sidechain is essentially an altcoin so if ExchangeChain is released and it is it's own crypto it will be traded for a value and speculated on, how are exchanges supposed to handle this?

From their announcement, it looks like they have already made partner agreements with several exchanges, so it appears that they ARE going to use this.

Blockstream has announced Bitcoin’s first production Sidechain Liquid in collaboration with a limited number of partners including prominent Bitcoin exchanges such as Bitfinex, BTCC, Kraken, Unocoin, and Xapo. The Company is holding talks with at least a dozen more major institutional traders and licensed Bitcoin exchanges.

[xyzzy099]

Yes they have partners but it doesn't say they will be using that instead of their centralized logs. They are probably going to be selling liquid for BTC or USD, you are just assuming they will be using liquid as their internal system.

You may be right - I don't know anything about Liquidity that was not in the announcement.

[Edit] Actually, after re-reading the announcement, it seems that Liquidity would only make sense for use by an exchange, or some other business making lots of Bitcoin transactions.  I don't see how selling the 'coins' to end-users would be viable.  Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are suggesting.

How will it work?

As mentioned above, the Liquid sidechain will aim to reduce the load that the Bitcoin blockchain currently handles. We have seen on numerous occasions, such as the recent Greece crisis, that the current version of Bitcoin blockchain cannot handle a sudden, huge surge in Bitcoin transactions. This limitation has also given birth to infrastructures such as SETL, which now boasts of processing more than 1 billion Bitcoin transactions.

The sidechain Liquid will reduce ISL – Interchange Settlement Lag – by fostering a high-speed transfer environment between accounts held by several participants in a separate, high-volume and low-fee cryptographic system. This will also enhance the liquidity, the security, and considerably bring down counterparty risks.

[Carlton Banks]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

I think this is only what the name implies; a tool to make the exchanges more liquid. No alt coins involved, it's still all BTC denominated.

I'm kind of disappointed in a similar way to others though; they could be running this as a mined chain, open to anyone to start mining just like the main chain. Needs to be a good reason to do it like this (e.g. immature code for something like that).

[brg444]

Hell... this can't be happening. It seems we will have a new struggle in our hands. If this so happens it can be the beginning of Bitcoin's demise.

It already happened!

Blockstream has investors - $21 million.  Blockchain wants to charge fees and centralize their private chains.  Investors want returns.  The core devs associated with Blockstream are full of bullshit when they say there is no conflict.  8MB is a great idea for everyone - except those involved with Blockstream because their project won't make money if we go to 8MB.

I know the facts, you retard, and 8MB only favors Blockstream's business plan.

You are absolutely clueless, please abandon your own thread before you cause even more damage to your reputation.

This guy is just an idiot who says 8MB favors BS.  That is full bullshit.  Blockstream is totally dead and unneeded if bitcoin has 8MB blocks.  That is why only the blockstream core devs pushed Gavin/Hearn away. 

If Bitcoin has 8MB Blockstream can fit more transactions in their sidechains without the arduous work of developing more advanced cryptography to reduce the size of their transactions.

Their new commercial product, Liquid, is an attempt at moving transactions which were already all happening off-chain, in centralized databases, to a more secure, distributed system where users will benefit from more liquidity, faster settlements, better privacy.

Again: this is an attempt at pushing transactions actually occuring off-chain (centralized) into a decentralized blockchain for the benefit of every Bitcoin users that trades on exchange.

[Carlton Banks]

Again: this is an attempt at pushing transactions actually occuring off-chain (centralized) into a decentralized blockchain for the benefit of every Bitcoin users that trades on exchange.

Is it really decentralised if Blockstream are the only people running the chain? Or am I misunderstanding that detail?

[brg444]

I hate sidechains, they seem like taking a step backwards. These sidechains are just Altcoins with a different name, you don't magically get coins on them you have to buy them and most are going to be shitchains just like all the shitcoins out there. Be weary of this and don't run off and invest in whatever sidecoin comes around screaming it's the future, remember it's just an altcoin.

Yes, ignorants are usually scared of what they don't understand

Would you rather prefer that exchanges remain dependent on centralized databases, which they currently use in order to move their clients coins?

The exchanges aren't going to use anything that is brand new and fluctuates, how many variables are we going to tie to an exchange? Like I said a sidechain is essentially an altcoin so if ExchangeChain is released and it is it's own crypto it will be traded for a value and speculated on, how are exchanges supposed to handle this?

From their announcement, it looks like they have already made partner agreements with several exchanges, so it appears that they ARE going to use this.

Blockstream has announced Bitcoin’s first production Sidechain Liquid in collaboration with a limited number of partners including prominent Bitcoin exchanges such as Bitfinex, BTCC, Kraken, Unocoin, and Xapo. The Company is holding talks with at least a dozen more major institutional traders and licensed Bitcoin exchanges.

Yes they have partners but it doesn't say they will be using that instead of their centralized logs. They are probably going to be selling liquid for BTC or USD, you are just assuming they will be using liquid as their internal system.

Is this a joke?

Do you even understand what Liquid is?

[Kprawn]

Oh, here we going again.... the endless discussion with no clear answer to what is the best for Bitcoin and not for the groups pushing their own agenda.

For me, both proposals have hidden agendas and side projects with advantages for the developers backing it... The Core team are just the lesser of the two evils.

When a proposal is put on the table with no hidden agenda, everyone will be happy... until then, we will have these boring fruitless discussions. 

[brg444]

Again: this is an attempt at pushing transactions actually occuring off-chain (centralized) into a decentralized blockchain for the benefit of every Bitcoin users that trades on exchange.

Is it really decentralised if Blockstream are the only people running the chain? Or am I misunderstanding that detail?

Blockstream people are not the ones running the chain, the exchanges are.

Of course it is not as decentralized as Bitcoin is but there are several issues with merged mining that need to be reconciled before deployment.

The logic is that exchange users already trust them with their funds, Liquid attempts to diminish this trust by distributing it across the different fiduciary nodes in the sidechain.