The Old Radical: How Bitcoin Is Being Destroyed

[bg002h]

I'm not seeing any reason laws couldn't be passed to make Bitcoin or some aspect of its technical underpinnings illegal in the US. There's a clever fella in here who has the tagline "Democracy is the original 51% attack" (or something to that effect) under his avatar...there are a lot of things that can be made illegal by passing laws that would be tough to argue are unconstitutional.

[MysteryMiner]

US is not whole world. The Bitcoin usage will go trough Tor, VPN or anything else and be completely hidden from law. Childporn is illegal but pedos are sharing CP all over darknet. Drug dealing is illegal but Silk Road and similar places exist and are blooming. Political dissent is illegal but dissidents are writing using Tor. You see the trend? Bitcoin is another weapon in this arms race of freedom that gives us great advantage!

[bg002h]

US is not whole world. The Bitcoin usage will go trough Tor, VPN or anything else and be completely hidden from law. Childporn is illegal but pedos are sharing CP all over darknet. Drug dealing is illegal but Silk Road and similar places exist and are blooming. Political dissent is illegal but dissidents are writing using Tor. You see the trend? Bitcoin is another weapon in this arms race of freedom that gives us great advantage!

I get your points...but I wouldn't exactly call child pornography main stream

[ArticMine]

The key difference is that with Free Libre Open Source is that the source code is there for everyone to see. If a GNU/Linux distributer were to distribute binaries that did not match the source code they would be exposed in no time and in addition would be liable to civil and criminal liability for copyright infringement. So I do not need to inspect every line of code to not trust the GNU/Linux distributer and yet use that distribution.

ORLY? With so much code does everyone ACTUALLY verifies that the Debian ISO's he compiles and packages match the same ISO's that are available for download? Don't take this as a criticism of open source model, the open source is superior but there is much to be done that is not done.

Of course the fact many Bitcoin users do not run Windows is a great source of strength for the bitcoin network.

Redundancy in diversity, no single point of failure.

P2P file sharing is not illegal. Copyright infringement may be illegal under certain circumstances; however the most common liability for individuals is civil damages.

You are too US-centric. Cops just start downloading copyrighted torrent and gather the IP addresses of peers. They don't do this here now, but the legal and technical base is already established.

In the scenario where a government were to try to stop Bitcoin the most efficient method would be to get Microsoft and Apple to shutdown most of the nodes. They can then concentrate their resources on the much fewer remaining GNU/Linux nodes. What is is really scary is that this can be done without making Bitcoin illegal thereby avoiding the legal and constitutional challenges that would arise in many countries. The best analogy is Wikileaks, just replace VISA, MasterCard, PayPal etc. with Microsoft and Apple in the Bitcoin case.

It will not work! In worst case scenario users will reinstall Windows from DVD and be back and very pissed. You cannot reliably prevent come program from being run on computer by user. Microsoft Malicious software removal tool or various antiviruses might be such program but it can do such padla only once!

Free Software / Open Source is not perfect but it is far superior to the propriety model. I actually live in Canada and have spent a lot of time reading the Copyright Act.

The real threat with Microsoft Windows is DRM which has fundamentally changed the degree of centralized control in Microsoft Windows over the last decade from a completely open system to a completely locked down system. While it would be next to impossible for Microsoft to control what programs a user runs using say Windows 2000 or Windows 98SE, it is trivial to do with Windows 8 RT on ARM. The latter is a completely closed software system where only software from the Microsoft controlled store is allowed to run very much like IOS. ARM Windows 8 computers will also come with a locked bootloader. It is an evolutionary process with XP more restricted than 2000, Vista more restricted than XP, 7 more restricted than Vista, 8 more restricted than 7. It is also a pattern among platforms with the oldest 32bit Intel as the freest and the newest ARM as the most restricted. 64bitAMD is in between. Many Windows users actually believe that they have the same freedoms today with Windows 8 than they had 12 years ago with Windows 2000 or Windows 98SE, when in fact the situation very different and will also get a lot worse with each new version of Windows. By the time Bitcoin becomes mainstream it will only be possible to run Bitcoin on Windows with Microsoft's permission, just as is currently the case with IOS and Apple.

The best analogy is how to cook a live frog alive by slowly rising the heat in small increments. If one places the frog in pot of boiling water it will jump out right away; however if one places the frog into a pot of cold water and slowly rises the heat to a boil the frog will stay in the pot and get cooked alive.

It is for this reason that I find it important to identify the real threats to Bitcoin from propriety OS vendors that wish to control every aspect of the end user computing experience for their own ends.

[ArticMine]

I'm not seeing any reason laws couldn't be passed to make Bitcoin or some aspect of its technical underpinnings illegal in the US. There's a clever fella in here who has the tagline "Democracy is the original 51% attack" (or something to that effect) under his avatar...there are a lot of things that can be made illegal by passing laws that would be tough to argue are unconstitutional.

It is not that simple. Remember SOPA a year ago?

[bg002h]

I'm not seeing any reason laws couldn't be passed to make Bitcoin or some aspect of its technical underpinnings illegal in the US. There's a clever fella in here who has the tagline "Democracy is the original 51% attack" (or something to that effect) under his avatar...there are a lot of things that can be made illegal by passing laws that would be tough to argue are unconstitutional.

It is not that simple. Remember SOPA a year ago?

Hehe...I do. I presented at our radiology residents conference and I made my last slide the take down notice used when domains were seized and I made a brief comment about Wikipedia going offline and SOPA and mentioned EFF...oh, and I had a form letter to our state senators for people to fill out.

[MysteryMiner]

I get your points...but I wouldn't exactly call child pornography main stream

There are more pedos in internet that I ever imagined. The same with drug users both on internet and IRL. I was living in a dream world, a Matrix.

These shadowy sides of human nature are not really mainstream but Bitcoin is not mainstream as well. We are on bleeding edge of technology and in any danger the majority of Bitcoin users will likely to adapt for security than abandon Bitcoin completely. Just like pedophiles. Sorry! The benefits of Bitcoin are too great to fail!

Free Software / Open Source is not perfect but it is far superior to the propriety model.

Agreed second time!

I actually live in Canada and have spent a lot of time reading the Copyright Act

I live elsewhere. Sometimes the fact that You own a computer can be evidence You are the guilty one. No matter what computer contains. The suspect is detained, blackmailed and threatened to plea guilty or maced.

The real threat with Microsoft Windows is DRM which has fundamentally changed the degree of centralized control in Microsoft Windows over the last decade from a completely open system to a completely locked down system. While it would be next to impossible for Microsoft to control what programs a user runs using say Windows 2000 or Windows 98SE, it is trivial to do with Windows 8 RT on ARM. The latter is a completely closed software system where only software from the Microsoft controlled store is allowed to run very much like IOS. ARM Windows 8 computers will also come with a locked bootloader.

The Windows 8 model of Metro apps and distribution is shit. It is dream of controlfags. Of course it can be cracked but the average non-hacker will be in kindergarten of Microsoft. I know history of Windows very well, used Windows since version 3.1 and agree with You!

Windows RT is for tablet freaks. No ARM-based half-computers can compete in usability with x86 based notebook or even Intel Atom netbook. What Microsoft allows to install on these half-computers is irrelevant.

The path Microsoft chose with Windows 8 will lead to downfall. They are reversing the exact points that made them sucessful.

By the time Bitcoin becomes mainstream it will only be possible to run Bitcoin on Windows with Microsoft's permission, just as is currently the case with IOS and Apple

By then majority will be using some Linux distro like Debian who will adhere to values that we have right now. Microsoft just shot themselves in leg.

[ArticMine]

...

Windows RT is for tablet freaks. No ARM-based half-computers can compete in usability with x86 based notebook or even Intel Atom netbook. What Microsoft allows to install on these half-computers is irrelevant.

The path Microsoft chose with Windows 8 will lead to downfall. They are reversing the exact points that made them sucessful.

By the time Bitcoin becomes mainstream it will only be possible to run Bitcoin on Windows with Microsoft's permission, just as is currently the case with IOS and Apple

By then majority will be using some Linux distro like Debian who will adhere to values that we have right now. Microsoft just shot themselves in leg.

ARM processors are getting very powerful and can match the performance x86 easily especially for many Laptop / Notebook applications with a far superior battery life. x86 software is also source compatible but is not binary compatible with ARM. This leads to a crucial difference between Microsoft Windows and GNU/Linux when it comes to ARM and actually gives GNU/Linux a huge advantage. A vendor such as Canonical (Ubuntu) can easily port GNU/Linux to ARM and produce a software distribution that is virtually identical to that on x86 since virtually all the third party software and drivers are Free Software / Open Source. The net result is that the experience on ARM and on x86 is essentially the same. Microsoft on the other hand can only port their own software, the OS and a handful of applications, to ARM and has to depend on third parties to port the drivers and most of the software. The net result is that the Windows 8 experience on ARM will be far inferior to that on x86 because most Windows software will not run and many peripherals will not work on ARM.  

To get an ides of what is possible with GNU/Linux on ARM take a look at Ubuntu for Android. http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android where we have a full GNU/Linux desktop experience where the tower is replaced by a docked smartphone. I do agree Microsoft has shot themselves in the leg with Windows 8 and this path will lead to their downfall, with a majority running GNU/Linux on their desktop (with the tower replaced by a docked smartphone maybe?). Furthermore I would not be surprised if Bitcoin actually accelerates the downfall of Microsoft.

[moni3z]

This guy is basically correct, probably should have since day one claimed bitcoin is a digital commodity instead of a currency to prevent frightening our government regulators into requiring MSB licenses and other bullshit, and just let it naturally and quietly grow without forcing it. Then one day in the near future we don't need to rely on their regulated payment systems, banks and fiat as much anymore and they didn't see it coming, so no chance to react.

Eventually bitcoin or similar decentralized cryptocurrencies will kill off all the money transfer corps like paypal and western union just like how smartphones are apparently killing google, since nobody wants to pay for advertising anymore that you can't see on a cell screen. 5 years ago nobody would guess google would take an advertising loss they seemed invincible. Microsoft is headed towards doom as the world's largest populations can't afford their licensing schemes, so reject it for open source development. Microsoft wants all future game publishers like Steam to sell their apps in their new 'Microsoft store' where they get a 30% cut, and is trying to prevent any unauthorized game or app installs starting with Windows 8, that's going to kill them off. These game companies will start developing for alternative operating systems where they don't have to pay fees. A super l337 gaming rig 5 years from now will be a linux system, hopefully Half Life 3 is out by then .

Paypal's blacklisting of half the world to satisfy US regulators will kill them too. Ebay due to their stifling regulations will die off when a real free competitor shows up, that's hopefully decentralized to avoid US regulators. None of these companies have a chance with their current monopolies to sustain their strangle hold on what looks to be an awesome future.

[westkybitcoins]

+1 to the OP. That some sort of conflict is inevitable seems to be pretty obvious at this stage, IMO.

[scrybe]

But actually, bitcoin can exist with old financial system.  Don't believe it?  Take a look at this here experimental verification: right now they do exist together.

Of course they do, but right now Bitcoin is nary e'en a flea upon the Banksters' backs. So of course the states and banks don't really see a threat... yet. But what if the global Bitcoin economy - underground or otherwise - takes over more than, say, 1% of total GDP? Won't states and major banks begin to see the potential threat then and maybe attempt to take action? The emphasis lies upon the word "attempt", for such regulatory or hostile actions may very well prove unsuccessful.

Let's see...
GDP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

Current world GDP: $70Tn
1% of current GDP: $700Bn
2016 BTC (easy math): 14Mn

Value per BTC: $50,000

Wow, let's try again with the currency supply http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulation_(currency):

Current world Curency Supply (M0): $4Tn
1% of current Currency Supply: $40Bn
2015 BTC (easy math): 12Mn
BTC: $3,333

Still wow.

Either way, the point is valid. Big official scrutiny and/or attempted takeover is a serious possibility. I think it will hit the fan and we will get a solid indication well before $500

[hashman]

But actually, bitcoin can exist with old financial system.  Don't believe it?  Take a look at this here experimental verification: right now they do exist together.

Of course they do, but right now Bitcoin is nary e'en a flea upon the Banksters' backs. So of course the states and banks don't really see a threat... yet. But what if the global Bitcoin economy - underground or otherwise - takes over more than, say, 1% of total GDP? Won't states and major banks begin to see the potential threat then and maybe attempt to take action? The emphasis lies upon the word "attempt", for such regulatory or hostile actions may very well prove unsuccessful.

The question is what action do they take?  It helps to realize that "major banks" is not a person, and it is only persons that can take any action.  Individuals are likely to act in what they perceive to be their own interests.  It is more likely that the individuals in question who have found themselves in control of money creation aim to preserve their own wealth and purchase coins with their newfound fortunes then gamble on "attacking" the networks in hopes that some future individuals will still be able to control money creation. 

In any case, the lack of action of any sort on the part of these players in the last four years is interesting...   


 

 

[Ichthyo]

Will you have the guts to do the right thing when the pressure is on? If yes, I applaud and honor you. If not, here are a few cheap excuses to use (after all, who wants to admit conditioning or cowardice):

    Without the rule of law, everything would fall apart.
    Without regulation, criminals would destroy everything.
....

I'm sure his/her heart is in the right place, but to me that sounds like the typical AnCrap I've just about had enough of around here.

Let's try and debunk the debunker step by step...

Without the rule of law, everything would fall apart.

OK then. Give me an example of a place that has no rule of law, yet things seem OK there. Maybe the Congo? I hear the Internet is really fast in those bullet-riddled jungles!

....

IMHO you got his argument the wrong way round.

Basically he's saying:

"when the weather is fine, it's easy and appealing to be a revolutionary,
but when you're be facing real opposition, you will use all kinds of weasel words and lame excuses for jumping ship"


So there is no point in debunking those lame excuses, since they are, well, lame excuses

A significant number of Bitcoin people will say these things (and others), but the real truth will be that they are scared, or are still hoping to get mega-rich, or just can’t rip the “government is our friend” meme out of their heads. But mostly it will be fear.

I'd put it this way: The O.P. realises the disruptive potential of bitcoin, but he's afraid the bitcoin community isn't up to the hardness to be expected once this disruptive potential starts to gain traction in the "real world" and cause tangible effects there. There is danger the community dreams of "sneaking in change" in a peaceful manner, while the powers that be typically know very well how to protect their position and interests and how to defeat effectively any "change" detrimental to those interests.

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

The rule of law is a myth anyway: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm

[hashman]

The rule of law is a myth anyway: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm

Great piece, thanks!! 

[Lethn]

The message you got is very well put and I swear it's not just because it's something I entirely agree with, Bitcoin is a real threat, not just to the old financial institutions like the federal reserve, but to entire empires, the worst thing for these guys is that it is also being adapted to a relatively new technology that they barely understand.

Not much else to be said here really, when it comes to situations where violence may occur though, my nerdy self always looks to the space marines at the best guidance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iexlGj4Lvg

NO MERCY! NO RESPITE! CHARGE!

[firefop]

P2P file sharing is not illegal. Copyright infringement may be illegal under certain circumstances; however the most common liability for individuals is civil damages. In the scenario where a government were to try to stop Bitcoin the most efficient method would be to get Microsoft and Apple to shutdown most of the nodes. They can then concentrate their resources on the much fewer remaining GNU/Linux nodes. What is is really scary is that this can be done without making Bitcoin illegal thereby avoiding the legal and constitutional challenges that would arise in many countries. The best analogy is Wikileaks, just replace VISA, MasterCard, PayPal etc. with Microsoft and Apple in the Bitcoin case.

It would take most users a grand total of 2 hours to be back up and running on another OS. It would take less than 3 days for someone to hack out a patch to fix windows so it would work again. Microsoft would find it morally reprehensible to do this. Apple wouldn't... but who really cares about mac users?

[Spekulatius]

Trying to go ‘legit’ will destroy the Bitcoin market.

Staying illegal or die!? I think its more complex then that.

Like with all things there are, money transfer, goods markets, labour,.., everything can be done the legal way or the illegal one. Why would that be any different with using bitcoins? In the future, when a host of regulations will have made bitcoin part of the system there will be people that use bitcoin in the "official" way, i.e. paying taxes, providing receipts to authorities,..
and there will be people that do it their way, i.e. buying stuff with bitcoin they are not allowed to, hiding funds from state in secret wallets, etc.

Bitcoin and state banking systems are born enemies: only one can survive.

Again, reality is more complex. Given authoritarian efforts have not accomplished in making Bitcoin a pariah to the legal system, the Bitcoin protocol and the legacy banking system will probably fill the niches in which they perform best. For Bitcoin that could be: money transfer, payments, account keeping
For the legacy system to perform better in: insurances, financial ratings, escrow,..., is possible.
It has been this way for new technologies throughout history, whenever something "better" comes along the host of legacy systems and the new kid on the block find their niches to occupy instead of ONE system to rule them all. E.g.: When CD came along it didnt completely dominate the market for data storage devices, we still use LPs, tapes and even books. Each technology serves the niche it performs in best.

[RodeoX]

I think bitcoins and other currencies can co-exist because they do co-exist. If state money and BTC cannot sustain this relationship then there is no chance bitcoin will survive.

[franky1]

the OP's thesis is wrote by a mindset that bitcoin will replace peoples wages/salary's from their employers. this will never happen. unless laws of government change. take the main one minimum wage.

contracted employee's of most western world countries will continue to receive FIAT to their bank and the bank will continue doing what its always done with that FIAT. that wont change whilst laws such as minimum wage laws restricting employee's income to a minimal FIAT payment as oppose to payments of any tender that represent the minimal FIAT amount.

so as long as banks still receive peoples wages(FIAT). not much will change.

bitcoin will only change the economy at the retail level. where merchants accept bitcoin, much like they accept gift vouchers, loyalty points and discount coupons. whilst still taking fiat along side it.
where they could sell bitcoin gift vouchers at their store to people wanting to buy bitcoin and redeem bitcoin later. much like they sell microsoft points and facebook credits instore's of US best buy and UK Dixons.

in the e-commerce world bitcoin 'could' replace facebook credits. amazon balances, paypal balances, steam/valve/microsoft credits to make one universal online currency, transferable to all the different and non affiliated websites. to bring together e-commerce much like creating another country. which accepts any form of FIAT in exchange for bitcoin to trade between different online merchants.

even bitinstant, bitpay an other online exchanges still have a bank account holding the funds if you dig deep enough. its not like people post their fiat to bitinstant owners house, who store it under their bedroom mattress and then posts it to people withdrawing. So banks are not losing out.

FIAT will still be in circulation. the mindset should be that bitcoin wont destroy any governments FIAT but instead create new a virtual country for online trading where bitcoin is that virtual countries own FIAT.

people of any country can buy and sell bitcoin much like travel agencies buy and sell foreign currencies and retailers accept some foreign currency.

people depositing in to get bitcoins and people withdrawing to get FIAT will create extra flow of FIAT cash for which banks will enjoy.