Zero Knowledge Transactions

[kazuki49]

I do believe I have something of value even if Shen is able to resolve every flaw I might find, because there is more than one way to skin a cat and mine is I think simpler to understand. Also mine should be more generally useful, because mine can sign the transaction even to 0 outputs, e.g. a burn transaction or signing to a future of outputs that will be decided later. And there are probably other scenarios where not conflating the inputs and the outputs in the signature has some use case that Shen's can't do (other than the one I already asked him about).

Now this sparks my interest, I could see myself donating to make this kind of feature into the Monero repository one day, also, like you recognized, the work being done by Shen could result in the same as your pricey whitepaper so why someone interested in Monero would buy it? Btw I see no problem in what you are doing and I think the price could indeed be low compared to what it could unleash but the problem is I have no expertise in this area, I need to take the words of those I see wiser than me and with a proven record before (as I think most people do) throwing money at speculative assets for speculation sake, and I personally have no interest in launching a coin or owning a whitepaper I don't understand hence why you may find your prize from someone else with other motives.

Well I am saddened to read that Monero devs are in poverty.

Just lol, I hope you are being ironic as I said the Monero devs did not win lotery deving for Monero (yet), I did not said they are poor by the contrary most seem successful in their respective areas of bussiness hence why they can afford donating time and effort for Monero at this point.

I want to read that we are expanding the crypto markets and all of us are getting wealthy while improving the world.

Well thats the goal, glad to read it from you too, even when you are after quick buck (and perhaps rightfully so).

[1714997331]

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[1714997331]

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[TPTB_need_war]

It is not a free market to use political gimicks to try to make someone look like they are not sincere about wanting to cure their illness as a way to cut off the market function that the sincere person is trying to propose. It was basically saying to me "accept communism or show everyone you aren't really sick".

That wasn't my intention at all.

I'm quite certain you are sick, and moreover, I think I know what's wrong with you. That was kinda my point. If you've definitely ruled out Lyme disease and haven't taken any cholesterol lowering medication within the past three years, then I think I can help.

In so far as the whitepaper is concerned, yeah, it has the intrigue of Tarantino's glowing suitcase, naturally. I'd concur that I'd do a trade for that. Of the oft times I've been ill over the past 38 years there have been many occasions I would glady sell my soul for the cure. So that was my perspective.

But I don't really see what difference it makes what I do with the whitepaper once traded. Whether I give it away on street corners, or keep it to myself.... who cares?

But like I said, I genuinely am more intrigued about the variables of your illness. I only have a marginal interest in the paper.

To be honest: If it was down to me I would simply join forces with smooth and adapt your technology for use with Aeon. Given current low prices you could get significant returns from your tech without giving away development control. To me that's a sensible solution which I think you'd be happy with.

Fuck it, if you did that I'd help you with your illness for free.

If you really think you know whats wrong with him I think you should tell him with no strings attached.  I think what happens on these forums should be separate from the health of a person in real life.

Just my two cents.

I understand that his attitude in he past might have left a bad taste in some peoples mouths but its a persons health we are talking about.

I'm not saying its unfair in any way to ask for something in return, its just the thoughts of the tree huger, humanitarian in me.

I was planning to reply to his post. Actually I very much appreciated his willingness to help. I felt bad that I pissed him off (if I did, but I think he wasn't pissed when he used the word fuck just he was putting emphasis on me working with smooth). But I hope he can understand that there are so many attacks flying here and there, it is very difficult to discern who is sincere or who is planting political traps.

Any way, I don't think he necessarily needs to give it to me for free, especially if I can afford to pay something and what he has can make me more productive. Discussion can add clarity on it.

He seems to be implying some connection to LDL or cholesterol. I am learning that so many things are interrelated. Any way, I came across a new revelation about low glutathione (actually I was aware of it before about the Methylation Cycle but some key aspects of this I hadn't studied sufficiently  before), and so I was planning to make a post about that first then reply to him and see what he thought after reading that and then go into him about what he might know and what value I might have to give in trade.

It is not impossible that smooth and I could work together. I think the key issue is financial reality.

I am trying to figure out now what is best role for me. Based on my past, I would prefer to lead a project. I think I can bring a fresh perspective to expanding markets. But my damn illness has so frustrated me to the point of exasperation.

So any way, I came here based on the urging of others who wanted me to share my algorithms so they would get implemented in a project if was too ill to finish Ion. And when Shen announced, it seemed like that was a good time to consider opening up my algorithms.

But as I said, I have a new insight on my illness and I still have a itch to lead my own project. Yet if I fit very well into an existing project, maybe that is the better role for me. Or if I can raise some cash and only lose "first mover" on my anonymity algorithm, that may make sense given my precarious financial+health situation. The illness beat me down and made me realize that maybe I could no longer will power months of non-stop coding and sleeping under my desk.

Any way, I am hopeful about this breakthrough on the glutathione. Let me go write that up... (all the tabs for that research still open on my browser ... haha my gf always teases me "how many tabs you have open now" since the number always grows and rarely shrinks).

[TPTB_need_war]

I do believe I have something of value even if Shen is able to resolve every flaw I might find, because there is more than one way to skin a cat and mine is I think simpler to understand. Also mine should be more generally useful, because mine can sign the transaction even to 0 outputs, e.g. a burn transaction or signing to a future of outputs that will be decided later. And there are probably other scenarios where not conflating the inputs and the outputs in the signature has some use case that Shen's can't do (other than the one I already asked him about).

Now this sparks my interest, I could see myself donating to make this kind of feature into the Monero repository one day, also, like you recognized, the work being done by Shen could result in the same as your pricey whitepaper so why someone interested in Monero would buy it? Btw I see no problem in what you are doing and I think the price could indeed be low compared to what it could unleash but the problem is I have no expertise in this area, I need to take the words of those I see wiser than me and with a proven record before (as I think most people do) throwing money at speculative assets for speculation sake, and I personally have no interest in launching a coin or owning a whitepaper I don't understand hence why you may find your prize from someone else with other motives.

Well I am saddened to read that Monero devs are in poverty.

Just lol, I hope you are being ironic as I said the Monero devs did not win lotery deving for Monero (yet), I did not said the are poor by the contrary most seem successful in their respective areas of bussiness hence why they can afford donating time and effort for Monero at this point.

I want to read that we are expanding the crypto markets and all of us are getting wealthy while improving the world.

Well thats the goal, glad to read it from you too, even when you are after quick buck (and perhaps rightfully so).

Rambling comment...

Let me clarify that it wasn't my idea to seek donations. I had always thought it was a non-optimum (almost like slavery to beg for donations) funding model (and then to have to explain to novices why your tech feature is worth the amount requested when valuation is very complex matter of futures), because only people who are vested have an incentive to give you their money. But others have tried to convince me that is a viable funding model and that fair distribution goes along with it (i.e. no ICO and no premine).

I just decided to follow their suggestion and give it a whirl and see how it goes. Then make a decision based on the feedback.

I am becoming more and more convinced from the feedback in this thread, that it is best to either launch your own coin or sell your services (and designs) to some coin that did sell an ICO or premine and thus has the funds to pay for your services. Seems the people working on Monero for bounties are getting paid only a couple $1000s for week or two of work, which basically means they are donating their time. Good programmers earn in excess of $100,000 a year. Even Google was paying $200,000 (+ stock options) for fresh college grads with no experience.

The idea is that he who can expand markets should go for his market value which can only be expressed in a two-way trading market, not in a one-way donation. So my inclination has always been that direction. I just decided to try the suggestion of others.

Perhaps Shen's can be used in Monero for free and perhaps it will good enough (or maybe even the best). That we still need to determine based on more information from Shen. I will just say that $21,000 is nothing when you are aiming for a $5m or even $50 million market cap. You would choose the algorithm that is best regardless of that small price differential for development cost. I still need to determine if Shen's algorithm is as good or better than mine. For the moment, I am thinking it lacks generality because it apparently (afaics) forces outputs to be bundled with inputs in the same signature. Also I really can't yet determine if there might be other flaws because I haven't yet digested all the math, e.g. the "MG" sig is still an enigma to me at this moment.

Since I understand my algorithm well and do not see any such flaws or potential for such flaws, I am lean towards the odds that mine is going to be superior to Shen's. But I don't yet know that for sure. Waiting on further elucidation or for myself to have more time to go learn more about the LLW sigs and his extension to his new invention of "MG" sigs.

Well I am more in poverty than the Monero devs, so they need not feel relatively poor, lol.

About quick buck, my point is I need to decide between other projects which might pay me a good salary (assuming I can find one), or other projects I could create that are not pigeon-holed to crypto, when determining my opportunity cost of working on crypto.

But here is the kicker for me. So many (e.g. social media) projects I would like to do, require the features I wanted to build for crypto that would expand markets (e.g. 1 second microtransactions to any party, not that addon channel design on top of Bitcoin). So I have always viewed my interest in crypto as foundational to other projects I want to do that are not just crypto. If Monero or anyone else was building what I needed for my other projects, then I wouldn't have to create my own project.

We all just want success. Who is going to lead us there? Gmaxwell, smooth, SuperNet, Daniel, Ethereum, myself, Dash?

We all have our theories and vestments. Who will end up being correct. I love competition. Exciting to get out there and compete on creativity. My problem is the realities of my life became so pressingly urgent lately. So I wasn't able to just lose days upon days coding with no sure income. Any way, my gut instinct is just go back to coding my own project. But I am trying to fight that, because I am not 34 years old and healthy (or am I?).

[TPTB_need_war]

Now ask your self, as an objective observer, what conclusion would you derive from these circumstances?

If you asked me I would come to conclusion that people are not aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery phenomenon.

Well it only makes sense that if Gmaxwell releases CT which shocks everyone, then with days Denis released CCT which shocks me more (and most people ignore it), then it is likely going to spawn more than one attempt to merge one-time rings with homomorphic value hiding.

[wpalczynski]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3c8dw

reddit response

[dEBRUYNE]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3c8dw

reddit response

I think the best option currently is to shift this to a dynamic/active conversation, e.g. chatting with each other on IRC. I mean, this passive forum posting and switching between/reddit isn't really that effective and some sentences/word could also be interpreted wrong.

TPTB_need_war: How do you feel about talking to Shen on IRC? You wouldn't be interrupted and affected by trolls, and on top of that I think you two could have a nice and effecient conversation. He is mostly at #bitcoin-wizards, you could use the webchat option -> https://webchat.freenode.net/

EDIT: Shen also said he has written everything out on paper already, so if you have a conversation on reddit he could probably explain and elaborate on the things you are worried about.

[coins101]

.....
I think the best option currently is to shift this to a dynamic/active conversation, e.g. chatting with each other on IRC. I mean, this passive forum posting and switching between/reddit isn't really that effective and some sentences/word could also be interpreted wrong.
.....so if you have a conversation on reddit he could probably explain and elaborate on the things you are worried about.

I got the impression the OP was actually looking to raise some funding, to meet personal financial needs 

[Fuserleer]

Larimer thinks you can have anonymity in such a system already:

For once I agree with you, if most transactions take place off chain/ledger/whatever then the majority of transactions are "anonymous" as they are not publicly recorded.

Smooth and I discussed this I believe in 2014 and the conclusion is that everything sent to the internet can be recorded, so there is no such thing as off chain anonymity (CoinShuffle excepted, and also CoinJoin if jamming and DoS is not your worry) if you are referring to protection against national security agencies and government capital controls.

And if for a business or high net worth individual, then you may also want to be very safe against espionage and mobsters, so again your upstream ISP, masternode/delegated node, or what ever might be compromised.

Also one of the most important points is that only on chain anonymity obeys the End-to-end principle of networks. The means your anonymity is orthogonal to any agent in the network. This is critical for scalability, redundancy, and resilience.

So please enough with the off chain anonymity. It is highly inferior. It is a hack that got some play in terms of quick way to get anonymity rolling (e.g. Dash), but it is not the future. If the internet had been invented without the end-to-end principle, then TCP/IP wouldn't work and we'd not have the scalable, resilient internet we have today that enables to even be here.

Except for CoinShuffle, Off chain mixing = trusting someone (node/server) you can't prove you can trust.

I put anonymous in quotes so as to highlight it as a hack, compromise whatever.  Its not a real solution of course, but for most end users its sufficient so that regular people you transact with cant find out all of your transactions.

With unscalable networks its a mute point anyway, because you cant store all of the transactions on-ledger, which is why I agree with r0ach and smooths arguments that scalability is more important in the long term end goal.

[TPTB_need_war]

With unscalable networks its a mute point anyway, because you cant store all of the transactions on-ledger, which is why I agree with r0ach and smooths arguments that scalability is more important in the long term end goal.

That is like asserting that since we can't fit the entire school on the school buses therefor we shouldn't use the school buses at all.

You can simply raise the transaction fees for anonymous transactions so their bandwidth usage is proportionally on par with the transaction fees for non-anonymous transactions, then raise both at proportional par until the on chain TPS falls to within the capacity of the system.

Those those who really need it, can avail of it.

And in the meantime, we will add block chain scaling and have had anonymity all that time for those needed enough to pay for it.

[smooth]

With unscalable networks its a mute point anyway, because you cant store all of the transactions on-ledger, which is why I agree with r0ach and smooths arguments that scalability is more important in the long term end goal.

My argument was I don't know which is more important. As TPTB points out the subsets have different properties and tradeoffs and may serve different markets. Or the answer may be none at all is "more important", if it turns out to be necessary to have all of them

[fluffypony]

With unscalable networks its a mute point anyway

*twitch*

It's "moot" not "mute".

[TPTB_need_war]

Or the answer may be none at all is "more important", if it turns out to be necessary to have all of them

I decided to pretend I am smooth. So I must add that "or the answer may be none at all is "more important"", if it turns out to be unnecessary to have any of them.".

<inside joke>

[TPTB_need_war]

Okay it looks like you only have my white paper still available as a solution. I will be awaiting Shen's response:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw1lwm8

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3pt3u?context=3

GodHard work works in mysterious ways. I know I worked very hard on that epiphany. I didn't think it would come easy to any one. And now it looks like my appraisal may have been correct all along. Well I must wait for Shen's response first. I am terribly sleepless (36 hours awake). Curiosity killed the cat.

Btw, if I am correct, I don't expect he can fix it. The issue is fundamental. You either have the epiphany I had or your don't. You aren't a little bit pregnant. Based on my design, I can conclude he isn't any closer than he was when he started.

Edit: in addition to and separate issue from the above, Shen has admitted a slight loss of generality in his design (which I claim my design does not lose) and which apparently can't possibly be fixed because mixing inputs with outputs in the signature is inherent in his design:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3mzec?context=3

[coins101]

...I am terribly sleepless (36 hours awake)....

So lets be cruel to be kind.

Get some fucking sleep.

Ross, J.J. (1965). Neurological findings after prolonged sleep deprivation. Archives of Neurology, 12(4), 399-403.

You're no bloody good to crypto if you're dead because you keep yourself awake, because you feel the need to make a point, win a point or win over some funding. You'd be more effective, in this regard, after getting some zzz's.

Trip the power switch.

[othe]

NobleSir 3 points 2 hours ago

There is no linkage enforced.

In Lemma 10, page 18, I've expanded on the second property of the MG sig, that "the probability of the signer not signing for any key of index pi is negligible" (from page 10). I think this is what you mean when you say there is no linkage enforced, however correct me if you mean something else. https://github.com/ShenNoether/MiniNero/raw/master/RingCT0.4_copy.pdf

[TPTB_need_war]

NobleSir 3 points 2 hours ago

There is no linkage enforced.

In Lemma 10, page 18, I've expanded on the second property of the MG sig, that "the probability of the signer not signing for any key of index pi is negligible" (from page 10). I think this is what you mean when you say there is no linkage enforced, however correct me if you mean something else. https://github.com/ShenNoether/MiniNero/raw/master/RingCT0.4_copy.pdf

Need clarification on symbolic notation (potential typos) first:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw456yt

[TPTB_need_war]

AnonyMint's Guide to Illegal Unregistered ICOs and Investment Services (Options, etc)

AltcoinUK, I am not going to set a threshold as high as $112,000 for the donation bounty on that one anonymity invention, even though I think it is a very significant feature. I am just stating what my earning opportunity cost had been inflation-adjusted from 2001. So hopefully the market will understand I am not going to give that feature away for $10,000.

The way it works is that you first decide what level of control you want to retain, and whether it is
- by charter
- by preferred shares, or
- by majority/required supermajority of shares.

Then you write the charter. Then you sell the shares up to the number you want. Then we have a 24/7 market where they are traded. If your project is perceived good, people will buy up the shares, and you can sell more if you have more monetary needs.

Selling equity (ICO) in a coin I would create is another option, but there are three problems facing this choice:

1. I would be preselling what is mostly (but not entirely) vaporware. Only the white papers and a small amount of code are completed thus far. My white papers are I believe are very strong (we are in the process in this thread of proving whether my anonymity paper is the only known solution to the Holy Grail of anonymous rings + hidden values), but I don't want to release them publicly until either I release a coin I created with them, or I receive some donations to release the white papers for another project or publicly.

2. Whether I presold coins in my project or equity via the Crypto Kingdom system of tokens as I understand it, then even though these tokens are not coins in my project (although perhaps they could be convertible to them), I am still selling securities to an investment I control (the 'control' is what makes it an investment security under USA law) thus implicitly responsible to manage ongoing to make the investment successful. Thus I would fall under USA SEC securities laws (and such laws in other jurisdictions where I sell such shares) and thus in the USA I would either have to sell only to qualified investors (those with verified liquid net worth of $1 million or regularly annual income > $200,000) or I would have to register with the SEC for registration A status where I could accept up to 5000 investors.

http://thismatter.com/money/stocks/exempt-securities.htm
http://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/ib_privateplacements.html
http://www.lextechnologiae.com/2011/06/26/why-bitcoin-isnt-a-security-under-federal-securities-law/

3. Would any one (including myself!) trust that my health will be stable. Note I am composing a post about my recent epiphany on diagnosing and treating my chronic illness (in short "inflammation cascade" due to glutathione deficiency originally triggered by imbalances brought on by numerous severe gut infections) and will link to it today.


Make sure you read carefully the third link above. My interpretation is the only way I can legally sell coins in a project (to USA investors under USA securities law and other such laws apply in other jurisdictions where I might sell these coins) is to do a Kickstarter-like campaign wherein I only receive the escrowed funds when the promised product is delivered and in which I am not the manager of the project ongoing after I have been paid for my services of creating the product. In other words, I can be a hired contractor, but I can't be the controlling group of the coin.

So my choices for doing any ICO (at any time whether now or later) are two:

A. Do a Kickstarter-like crowdfunded escrow (denominated in fiat or BTC) and be paid when the coin is completed. And then the coin must run on auto-pilot, i.e. can't be controlled by me after it is launched and I am paid. Since there will be no "Controlling Entity" then the coins transferred to the Kickstarter participants are just products (in some virtual, autonomous, multi-player game which some may use as a currency but nevertheless not depending on me to manage it) thus not investments in investment securities as defined by the SEC. If I intended to retain managerial control after completing the funded projects, I would have to register the crowdfunding under the Jobs Act and restrictions would be placed on the trading for the coins for 1 year. Kickstarter can't be used as the crowdfunding service because Kickstarter doesn't allow selling products which are "financial incentives" so they will not likely allow selling tokens of a (currency) product that is created.

B. Find a controlling group that is anonymous and illegally sell coins to US investors without complying with the SEC securities law. Mircea Popescu has taunted the SEC (I AnonyMint mentioned being banned from rpietila's cryptocrypt.org in that linked post) saying he is not under their jurisdiction when he sold investments to US investors. I assert once the G20 get coordinated on enforcing each other's laws, he is going to potentially be one of the casualties. Afaik selling securities to USA investors whether you are a US resident, citizen, or foreigner, you are still subject to the SEC requirements. Mircea Popescu's critical error in logic is that although Bitcoin is not a "Controlled Enterprise", his options investing service is.  Gavin Andresen agreed with my stance. So for all of you who are invested in coins originally offered in ICO and lead by developers who were affiliated with the group not registered with the SEC and that sold the coins to USA investors, your coin is illegal and may be attacked by the SEC someday.

Usual disclaimers apply that I am not an attorney nor a legal adviser. Every reader should consult their own.


P.S. here was myself as AnonyMint in early 2014 arguing for anonymity as a core feature for crypto currency and starting to think about decentralized exchanges with decentralized automated options. And here was yet another one of those examples where people claim AnonyMint was attacking others or putting them down, where in fact what I was stating was perfectly agreeable logic but the readers couldn't grasp the clear logic and were attacking me for their intellectual handicap. I got so exasperated, I deleted my posts in that thread.

[rpietila]

- If you make a project that the system can destroy, it is not even worth doing. We already have those.

- If the system cannot destroy it, what is the point in seeking their approval?

[TPTB_need_war]

AnonyMint's Guide to Illegal Unregistered ICOs and Investment Services (Options, etc)

- If you make a project that the system can destroy, it is not even worth doing. We already have those.

- If the system cannot destroy it, what is the point in seeking their approval?

Or make a legal decentralized currency which they also can't destroy.

Which at the generative essence is conceptually simple. Do the development as crowdfunded stages with each product produced running autonomously. Enable coins to be burnt from one development stage to the next. Each stage runs as a decentralized, autonomous protocol. Whole new paradigm for altcoins. Perhaps I will be the first to test the model (pending decision involving this thread). Maybe Gmaxwell is reading and can apply this to the general concept of side-chains.

[rpietila]

AnonyMint's Guide to Illegal Unregistered ICOs and Investment Services (Options, etc)

- If you make a project that the system can destroy, it is not even worth doing. We already have those.

- If the system cannot destroy it, what is the point in seeking their approval?

Or make a legal decentralized currency which they also can't destroy.

Which is simple. Do the development as crowdfunded stages with each product produced running autonomously. Enable coins to be burnt from one development stage to the next. Each stage runs as a decentralized, autonomous protocol. Whole new paradigm for altcoins. I will be the first. Maybe Gmaxwell is reading and can apply this to the general concept of side-chains.

So you are making a lethal weapon of financial self-defence, which the system cannot destroy, and therefore you (the system and the people) will learn to respect the mutual differences?

Well I just proposed the exact same!