history repeating itself... Greek society in free-fall

[Bitware]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h-uko85LmSN-HjBmPo-Kx7X8kAOg?docId=fbec5c4106f54b6382d8811ff85b3155

[jl2035]

This is shocking...

I was in Greece this year in september. Well not actually Greece but Corfu.
We had a very nice time, bars and restaurants were open, beaches were nice and the greek people didn't look so desperate. But of course that's all from a tourist perspective.

All the time during that week I was dreaming that Corfu could become a first "Bitcoin oasis". Can you imagine.. it's a very small island and it wouldn't be to hard to convince all those little businesses to just accept BTC. In the first summer season there will be a massive invasion... All bitcoiners would want to spend their summer vications in Corfu... where they could sleep, eat and drink for BTC... and besides that: it's a beautiful island...

After that people will see the advantages of crypto currency and I bet that this way of thinking would spread all over Greece.

hm.. nice... I wrote something positive based on that sad sad story from the news.

[hazek]

It breaks my heart when I read this story while being 100% certain that in the end the solution to all these problems will be found in violence that caused the problems in the first place i.e. in a small gang of thugs enforcing arbitrary rules through violence robbing people of their freedom and wealth i.e. a democratic government.

Will they ever learn?  

[myrkul]

Will they ever learn?  

Hope springs eternal.

[Brunic]

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  

[cedivad]

They cannot inject money as you say.
They don't own their own money.

[hazek]

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  

What a bunch of garbage this post is.  I'm not even going to attempt to point out all the sophistry and idiocy in it.

[Rudd-O]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h-uko85LmSN-HjBmPo-Kx7X8kAOg?docId=fbec5c4106f54b6382d8811ff85b3155

'ATHENS, Greece (AP) — A sign taped to a wall in an Athens hospital appealed for civility from patients. "The doctors on duty have been unpaid since May," it read, "Please respect their work."'

LOLantisocialized health care.  This is the endgame:

http://mises.org/daily/3650

OTOH, places like this are ripe for agorism.  Bitcoin has great potential here.

[Rudd-O]

It breaks my heart when I read this story while being 100% certain that in the end the solution to all these problems will be found in violence that caused the problems in the first place i.e. in a small gang of thugs enforcing arbitrary rules through violence robbing people of their freedom and wealth i.e. a democratic government.

Will they ever learn?  

Greece is the great-grandparent of the very concept of the modern State. They have repeated the same poisonous charade for about three thousand years, failing again and again.

Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans, doing the same destructive shit over and over, like lunatics, unaware that the very thing they worship is what keeps destroying them.

I do not hold any hope that they will learn.  In fact, I think they'll just murder each other, completely oblivious to what really ails their society, as the rulers who engineered this disaster and profited from it quietly laugh all the way to the European Central Bank.

For those who defend the State with cries of "what about the poor": tell us, o magnanimous examples of generosity with other people's money, what about the poor now, as the State inevitably collapses?

[hazek]

It breaks my heart when I read this story while being 100% certain that in the end the solution to all these problems will be found in violence that caused the problems in the first place i.e. in a small gang of thugs enforcing arbitrary rules through violence robbing people of their freedom and wealth i.e. a democratic government.

Will they ever learn?  

Greece is the great-grandparent of the very concept of the modern State. They have repeated the same poisonous charade for about three thousand years, failing again and again.

Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans, doing the same destructive shit over and over, like lunatics, unaware that the very thing they worship is what keeps destroying them.

I do not hold any hope that they will learn.  In fact, I think they'll just murder each other, completely oblivious to what really ails their society, as the rulers who engineered this disaster and profited from it quietly laugh all the way to the European Central Bank.

For those who defend the State with cries of "what about the poor": tell us, o magnanimous examples of generosity with other people's money, what about the poor now, as the State inevitably collapses?

Well said.

[Brunic]

They cannot inject money as you say.
They don't own their own money.

Yeah, that's the worst part of it. I really think some Euro countries needs to step forward and inject money in the Greek system. The boat is leaking, they're all in the same economy, they have to patch, even at loss. They're going to implode the whole euro zone simply because they don't want to "lose" money with Greece.

What a bunch of garbage this post is.   I'm not even going to attempt to point out all the sophistry and idiocy in it.

If you're going to insult people instead of debating, get lost. You're not interesting.

Here is what a economist and nobel prize winner is thinking about all that:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/17/stiglitz-greece-and-spain-are-in-depression/

[bb113]

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  

Has this plan ever been implemented? I mean it may work, but it seems impossible for governments to stop injecting money once they start.

[Nolo]

They cannot inject money as you say.
They don't own their own money.

Yeah, that's the worst part of it. I really think some Euro countries needs to step forward and inject money in the Greek system. The boat is leaking, they're all in the same economy, they have to patch, even at loss. They're going to implode the whole euro zone simply because they don't want to "lose" money with Greece.

What a bunch of garbage this post is.   I'm not even going to attempt to point out all the sophistry and idiocy in it.

If you're going to insult people instead of debating, get lost. You're not interesting.

Here is what a economist and nobel prize winner is thinking about all that:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/17/stiglitz-greece-and-spain-are-in-depression/

I'll back you up and say I agree completely with your austerity post.  It's a horrible idea.  That's the problem that I have with what happened in the 2000s in the U.S.  After the country was showing a surplus, and unemployment was so low, and the economy was booming in the late 90s, that's when the spending should have been cut, and taxes on the wealthy raised.  Instead we accelerated the increase in debt by massively increasing spending and massively cutting taxes on the wealthy.  Then the complete lack of financial regulation led to the collapse of the worldwide financial industry and the housing debacle we find ourselves digging out of now. 

So basically what happened was we kept spending and low taxes when things were going great, and when they collapsed we had magnified the debt so badly that there wasn't the ability (or will) to massively spend by the government to end the recession (depression?) quickly. 

[fornit]

[...]
Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans
[...]

Well said.

yeah ok 

[Brunic]

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  

Has this plan ever been implemented? I mean it may work, but it seems impossible for governments to stop injecting money once they start.

Some economist said that it has been implemented by accident in the 1930-1940. I can't find the source right now, but the theory of why the USA went from the Great depression to the baby-boom after the WW2 is because the government started subsidizing its society with the war. It was not the alleged goal, but with the war, the government had to subsidize production (for ammos, guns, everything the war effort demanded). It gave people jobs, many projects were build from the war (the biggest is manhattan project, with the nuclear brought new jobs in all domains for example) because the government was continually injecting money in the society.

When the war ended, many people had jobs, money, projects and knowledge. The population was strong enough to continue by itself, and the rest is history.

That's why I tend to agree with right-wingers when a country economy is strong, because the population is strong enough to deal by itself. But when the country is going average or down, I think left-wingers have a better solution, since you can't allow your country to go too deep in a crisis. A country is hard to build and easy to fall.

[Rudd-O]

[...]
Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans
[...]

Well said.

yeah ok 

The number may be a little off, but for the most part of mankind, the time to be pregnant with child was beginning of adolescence.  Don't let your modern cultural beliefs color the facts of history.  :-)

Have a nice day!

[Brunic]

I'll back you up and say I agree completely with your austerity post.  It's a horrible idea.  That's the problem that I have with what happened in the 2000s in the U.S.  After the country was showing a surplus, and unemployment was so low, and the economy was booming in the late 90s, that's when the spending should have been cut, and taxes on the wealthy raised.  Instead we accelerated the increase in debt by massively increasing spending and massively cutting taxes on the wealthy.  Then the complete lack of financial regulation led to the collapse of the worldwide financial industry and the housing debacle we find ourselves digging out of now.  

So basically what happened was we kept spending and low taxes when things were going great, and when they collapsed we had magnified the debt so badly that there wasn't the ability (or will) to massively spend by the government to end the recession (depression?) quickly.  

Bingo!

You're making money and your people is making easy money. Pay those debts and save some money for when the country is going down. Bush trashed all this money in I-don't-know-what and now, you're stuck with a guy trying to repair all the damages.

I love the Norwegian model exactly for that. They found oil and easy money. What do they do? They build one of the biggest fund around here and save money for worst days. Last time I checked, their fund was estimated to 500 billion$. The day they go in crisis, they can simply subsidize their population for a couple of years, waiting for the economy to get better. This country is almost immune to any economic crisis.

[fornit]

The number may be a little off, but for the most part of mankind, the time to be pregnant with child was beginning of adolescence.  Don't let your modern cultural beliefs color the facts of history.  :-)

reasonable values are likely 15-20.
i just singled that out because it was just the most obvious part of a post that was "maybe a little off" about everything. talking about greece as a state that has failed again and again for about three thousand years is so totally absurd...
greece, until conquered and systematically ruined by the ottoman empire, was among the most prosperous and developed regions of the world for almost two thousand years.
how the fuck does that constitute failure?

[Rudd-O]

The number may be a little off, but for the most part of mankind, the time to be pregnant with child was beginning of adolescence.  Don't let your modern cultural beliefs color the facts of history.  :-)

reasonable values are likely 15-20.
i just singled that out because it was just the most obvious part of a post that was "maybe a little off" about everything. talking about greece as a state that has failed again and again for about three thousand years is so totally absurd...

It is "absurd"?  How exactly?  :-)

greece, until conquered and systematically ruined by the ottoman empire, was among the most prosperous and developed regions of the world for almost two thousand years.
how the fuck does that constitute failure?

Greece, ruined by statism?  NOOOOOOO, YOU DON'T SAY!

[Littleshop]

The damage in Greece is done, the debt basically cannot be paid off without some form of write-down.  The only way forward is to balance the budget at a minimum which they are not doing.