Time to stand up to the XT shills here!

[CIYAM]

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

He can't. It's the same as simple being dishonest as a miner, making false blocks or else, the network will just ignore his blocks.

As the major Chinese exchanges have all stated that they do not support the BIP then your statement about "all the exchanges" is obviously rubbish (there is no such agreement between all the exchanges).

There is only *one* main company (which isn't even an exchange) that is pushing this XT agenda.

[da2ce7]

No BIP101 (as coded in Bitcoin XT) will activate when 75% of the blocks flag it.  The miners being honest or dishonest is not relevant.

Bitcoin XT activation of BIP101 doesn't depend on "exchanges, payment processors, services ..." (or anything else).

You are not correct with your statement.  For example, 76% of the miners may choose to fuck-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, by falsely flagging BIP101 -  Then opening up the XT nodes to cheap double spend attacks whenever they (or anyone) wants.

You are missing the whole picture.

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

He can't. It's the same as simple being dishonest as a miner, making false blocks or else, the network will just ignore his blocks.

Do you think that miners will be happy to make useless garbage blocks, wasting time and "money" because they prefer to? There is no way that this will happen.

And this is because my previous phrases are 100% correct, that is needed that large majority of the whole network wants the BIP101 to happen.
Can you understand it now?

Miners are just complacent slaves, they have no power to change anything and nodes (users/services -> nodes) don't want.

I'm saving this entire quote here for future reference to show that at this date you didn't understand the basic properties of block-version-numbers.

However,

Let me assure you that my previous statement is technically correct.  The Bitcoin Core uses would be completely unaware that the miners have fucked-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, and no money would be wasted in the Bitcoin Core world.

[Lauda]

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

Right back at you; how can a network operate without miners? Miners can sell for cash (i.e. no need for exchanges), a network can't operate at all without miners. It's pretty obvious who has the upper hand here. They're the sole reason that the network is as strong and secure as it is today (hashrate).

[HostFat]

Let me assure you that my previous statement is technically correct.  The Bitcoin Core uses would be completely unaware that the miners have fucked-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, and no money would be wasted in the Bitcoin Core world.

The only way to make a double attack is making blocks bigger than 1MB, just one time to achieve it.

Easy and most of all cheaper  

[HostFat]

Right back at you; how can a network operate without miners? Miners can sell for cash (i.e. no need for exchanges), a network can't operate at all without miners. It's pretty obvious who has the upper hand here. They're the sole reason that the network is as strong and secure as it is today (hashrate).

It can't.
The all argument started from some statements that someone/something was forcing miners and other to move to BIP101.
This is just false and impossible, because it can't happen without the whole agreement all the main maintainers of the network (exchanges, payment processor, nodes and users)

Miners will not move on something that doesn't accept their money, or they could just move/jump on another altcoin everyday already (which they obviously didn't)

If it will happen, it will be because the whole market will want it, deal with it.

[Lauda]

If it will happen, it will be because the whole market will want it, deal with it.

The main issue as hand here is not freedom of choice but manipulation through various schemes in order to recruit as many people as possible. This is not the "will" of the users, nor what the market wants. The average joe is easy to be fooled and this is what made XT gain traction. I just can not comprehend how anyone with any common sense would want to join a person who wants to be a benevolent dictator in a decentralized system. This is not false information both Hearn and Gavin have said it at least once.

Miners will not move on something that doesn't accept their money, or they could just move/jump on another altcoin everyday already (which they obviously didn't)

You're talking about a drastic situation which will not happen. A lot of people would be using Core even if this "industry" moves to XT. There's going to be plenty of people for miners to sell to. I doubt that even if XT succeeds in any way, that the usage of Core will come down to near 0.

[da2ce7]

The only way to make a double attack is making blocks bigger tham 1MB, easy and most of all cheaper

Let me assure you that my previous statement is technically correct.  The Bitcoin Core uses would be completely unaware that the miners have fucked-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, and no money would be wasted in the Bitcoin Core world.

The only way to make a double attack is making blocks bigger than 1MB, just one time to achieve it.

Easy and most of all cheaper  

I'll save this quote in full to show at this date you didn't understand some basic double spend attacks.

But I will explain this attack.

Any XT node would could be tricked into accepting a block that an attacker KNEW would not confirm in the rest of the network.
Any SPV miner may then mine on-top of your block blindly, creating a longer chain at a much cheaper price.

Thus reducing the sybil requirements.
The attacker could more cheaply and reliably make a longer false-chain, fooling a XT node into thinking that it has real confirmations.

[HostFat]

Any XT node would could be tricked into accepting a block ...

Again how much costs this attack? How much costs making a block bigger than 1 MB?  

Even if all miners will happily lying about making blocks bigger than 1 MB by changing the block-version-numbers, they need to make a real bigger block to succeed in some way to make a double spend, and it isn't cheaper at all!

[da2ce7]

Any XT node would could be tricked into accepting a block ...

Again how much costs this attack? How much costs making a block bigger than 1 MB? 

It cost the same 25BTC to make 1MB block or 8MB block.

The difference is that if an attacker is trying to scam a example 200BTC double spend, then it is far more reliable and simple to do it against a XT node that would accept a 8MB block, while the rest of the network rejects it.

Again, your posts show you don't understand the Bitcoin Security Threat Model very deeply at all.

[HostFat]

So it's the same problem that we add with all past forks

It's better to not accept high value transactions during the forks, what a news!

[da2ce7]

So it's the same problem that we add with all past forks

It's better to not accept high value transactions during the forks, what a news!

Er. No.  If such an attack against XT as I described here:

You are right, but the choice is still in the hands of the users, and not on something else (like a bunch of devs)
BIP101 can't activate without the majority of nodes (and exchanges, payment processors, services ...) and miners.

No BIP101 (as coded in Bitcoin XT) will activate when 75% of the blocks flag it.  The miners being honest or dishonest is not relevant.

Bitcoin XT activation of BIP101 doesn't depend on "exchanges, payment processors, services ..." (or anything else).

You are not correct with your statement.  For example, 76% of the miners may choose to fuck-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, by falsely flagging BIP101 -  Then opening up the XT nodes to cheap double spend attacks whenever they (or anyone) wants.

happened, then the Bitcoin XT nodes would be forever vulnerable, while the Bitcoin Core nodes would experience no loss in security.

This is clearly not what happened in the previous forks.

[HostFat]

It is just the same, the oldest advice ever on Bitcoin is to accept minimum 6 confirmations  

I give up.

[da2ce7]

It is just the same, the oldest advice ever on Bitcoin is to accept minimum 6 confirmations  

I give up.

You clearly have much reading and study to do on how bitcoin works.

I hope that you take this opportunity to do some research so you don't look like either: you don't know what you are talking about. or shifting the goal-posts in your debates.

[hdbuck]

It is just the same, the oldest advice ever on Bitcoin is to accept minimum 6 confirmations  

I give up.

You clearly have much reading and study to do on how bitcoin works.

I hope that you take this opportunity to do some research so you don't look like either: you don't know what you are talking about. or shifting the goal-posts in your debates.

let him just fork off, moving from BS to action.

maybe even get a mod spot at this joke of a forum them wannabes got up and running to promote their corporations.

[Velkro]

Yeah lets be totalitarian. It sure does fit bitcoin's vision 

Ye, topic author is a little bit delusional, he thinks his thinking is one true version of reality and everyone should think like him  

[HostFat]

LOL, I'll wait to se how a miner can make a double spend cheaper my making just six blocks in a row (or more)  over 1MB.

Yeah, I'm the one that need to study, sure.  

[spartacusrex]

wow... 

Of ALL people.. I can't believe you started this 'lynch-mob' thread Ciyam..

You're better than this.

[meono]

If it will happen, it will be because the whole market will want it, deal with it.

The main issue as hand here is not freedom of choice but manipulation through various schemes in order to recruit as many people as possible. This is not the "will" of the users, nor what the market wants. The average joe is easy to be fooled and this is what made XT gain traction. I just can not comprehend how anyone with any common sense would want to join a person who wants to be a benevolent dictator in a decentralized system. This is not false information both Hearn and Gavin have said it at least once.

Miners will not move on something that doesn't accept their money, or they could just move/jump on another altcoin everyday already (which they obviously didn't)

You're talking about a drastic situation which will not happen. A lot of people would be using Core even if this "industry" moves to XT. There's going to be plenty of people for miners to sell to. I doubt that even if XT succeeds in any way, that the usage of Core will come down to near 0.

Wow .....

Adapting one BIP does not mean joining anyone's group or gang.

Please stop embarrassing yourself.

[meono]

wow... 

Of ALL people.. I can't believe you started this 'lynch-mob' thread Ciyam..

You're better than this.

I know hes that low. I'm not shocked at all.

[iCEBREAKER]

ever wondered how you gain 'lolcow' points in the bitcoin technical community: look no further!

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6579

Hearn: "But But But Muh Preshush SPVEEEEEEEEE connectshunz!!!111!"

Everyone else: "Bwah-ha-ha-haw-haw!!!"