"Unfold" button in poker. Would that work?

[WhatTheGox]

This could be a good or a bad idea .It would be a bad idea if the opposite person has good cards he can lose out on winnings and vica versa.Other way round it can give a nice chance for the unlucky one to save some cash.There should be a unfold button provided he has to pay some mbtc to use that service.

Best thing to do is give it a test run. Seems to me like you'd create a whole new game strategy but thats no worries. When they made zoom/rush poker the game play changed - overall the game plays tighter and aggressive.

With this unfold game it seems you'd get really strange scenarios in each hand.  Should imagine starting hands would be tight since people dont actually have to play to be involved.  Another interesting thing is that people have to focus on each hand entirely.

[iv4n]

This would not work!!! And it`s nor fair to even think about that button. On very simple example:
I have two king`s and I rise 2000 chip`s.
You have 2 and 7 you fold.
.... let`s not look other player`s. So on flop there is next 3 card`s.  2, 2, 7..... So now u are stronger and now your would pay much more then 2000 chip`s. It`s funny when I even think about it. I regreted many times cause I didn`t pay much less then this amount in example but it`s poker. This unfold button is not fair then, why would anyone rise after that?  This is not good idea at all!

[euroasia]

i did not understand anything, can you write it in turkmen language ?

[sana9821]

i doubt that it would be ok to have such button in the game as it would change it drastically and it would be a different game also it wouldnt be that interesting

[pawel7777]

i doubt that it would be ok to have such button in the game as it would change it drastically and it would be a different game also it wouldnt be that interesting

The game would be the same, but it would require different strategy. Just like you need to adjust your strategy to play tournament or ring game, limit or no limit game, heads up or multi player etc.

This would not work!!! And it`s nor fair to even think about that button. On very simple example:
I have two king`s and I rise 2000 chip`s.
You have 2 and 7 you fold.
.... let`s not look other player`s. So on flop there is next 3 card`s.  2, 2, 7..... So now u are stronger and now your would pay much more then 2000 chip`s. It`s funny when I even think about it. I regreted many times cause I didn`t pay much less then this amount in example but it`s poker. This unfold button is not fair then, why would anyone rise after that?  This is not good idea at all!

First of all you don't have to play if you don't like the idea. It's not to replace classic holdem.

Second of all, Having KK in hand and knowing there's unfold button, you could:
- Not raise 2000 preflop
- Raise more, so folded player can't afford 'unfold' even if he wants to.
- Fold, hoping at least 2 other players will carry on, then you could unfold on the flop if you're happy to.
Also, the player who unfolds doesn't know you have KK, you could have 77 as far as he knows, so it's a big risk for him to unfold at such high price.

With this unfold game it seems you'd get really strange scenarios in each hand.  Should imagine starting hands would be tight since people dont actually have to play to be involved.  Another interesting thing is that people have to focus on each hand entirely.

I'm guessing starting hands would be either tight (most of the time) or very aggressive.
There's also a risk that when you fold good hand pre-flop, you may not get a chance to see the flop, if everyone else also fold (other than BB). So your position at the table is pretty important.

I find it hard to guess how would it look like in theory (without testing), it's also possible that unfolding would be very rarely used.

[actmyname]

IMO a very good idea but it would give the more skilled poker players even more advantage over the
average player.

Possibly, but from I've noticed most 'average' (or inexperienced) players can be classified as 'tight passive', meaning they rarely bluff and only call with good hand. Those players are likely to fold before the flop (especially when someone raises). 'Unfold' could give them a second chance, when shitty hand turns out to be not-so-shitty.

So this could work both ways. Better skilled players will still have advantage and will profit more in the long run, but the less-skilled could have potentially more winning chances in the short run.

As well, you can bluff by unfolding. If there's the possibility of having a great hand and you fake it, you can definitely add more psychological game in there.

[DarkDays]

The problem is, it takes the risk out of folding which means that that game would play waaaaaaaaaaay smaller which is bad for everyone involved.  It also adds more luck into the game, which is bad for winning players (they win less/the house rakes more).

Think about it this way: you are incentivizing people to NEVER put money in with a speculative hand.  Small pairs hoping to hit a set, draws looking to fill up.  All of those hands now have every reason to never call any bets, because why would they risk money on a draw when they can save the money and see a free card (or two) and if they hit, they can get back in.  And it doesn't matter what "fee" they have to pay, because they know that they very likely have the winning hand. 

So no, this is a very bad idea.

[patt0]

To be honest I think it could be funny. They would have to pay some extra just to get in the pot (like when you miss the blinds and want to get back to the game on the co). It would be great for some bluff moves. Not sure if it would work well, but I would sure like to try it.

[dooglus]

This would not work!!! And it`s nor fair to even think about that button.

How can you say this is unfair? It's not just your opponent who get the unfold button, you get it too, so it's totally fair.

By your logic Omaha is unfair because your opponent gets 4 hole cards instead of 2!

This unfold button is not fair then, why would anyone rise after that?  This is not good idea at all!

Well, maybe he's unfolding to bluff you off your hand. He might not have a 2 or 7 at all.

"Unfold" changes the game a lot, and maybe in a bad way, but it would be fun to try it anyway.

[Erza]

This would not work!!! And it`s nor fair to even think about that button. On very simple example:
I have two king`s and I rise 2000 chip`s.
You have 2 and 7 you fold.
.... let`s not look other player`s. So on flop there is next 3 card`s.  2, 2, 7..... So now u are stronger and now your would pay much more then 2000 chip`s. It`s funny when I even think about it. I regreted many times cause I didn`t pay much less then this amount in example but it`s poker. This unfold button is not fair then, why would anyone rise after that?  This is not good idea at all!

How can that not fair? I think they can set the time when unfold button will be pop up? May be before the card is coming out or sometimes people want to fold before they know the card and wrong clicked it so they can unfold it back right away. There are so many possibilities to unfold it so I guess it is fair enough but actually this button is not really useful in poker game

[iv4n]

All of you trying to convince me that "unfold"="I regret cause i folded" button is something that can make game more interesting. It`s unfair simply cause in poker you PAY TO SEE next card. Where is the logic if you fold ( didn`t pay to see next card) and after next card u just press "unfold" button and that`s it? Like now I change my mind... Anyway it`s my opinion about poker and this button, if you ever make it I will try and maybe I will have differente opionion about it, for now in my head it doesn`t have logic.

[deadlyunknown]

If you play poker often, you've probably heard someone joking 'how do I unfold?' or 'where's the unfold button?' after the flop.

What if there actually was one?

Would it be an interesting idea to create variation of i.e. standard no-limit Hold'em including 1 extra option: the 'Unfold button'?.
For example, it would only be active after the flop (but not after the turn or the river), there would be say 5 seconds pause after the flop to give time to 'folded' players to make decision whether they want to go back in the game or not.

To use that option, player would have to throw in 2x current pot on the table (but not as 'raise'), possibly there could also be additional fee payable directly to the house (say 0.2 of the current pot, non-refundable).

Would that work at all? Would it make the game more interesting, or on the contrary - too complex and unplayable?

Thoughts?


Disclaimer: The 'unfold button' implementation idea is an intellectual property of pawel7777, if you planning to use it on your poker site, the author would like to get paid

NO, terrible idea.
If they unfold their cards, that'll be a disaster for those people who did not fold + they did know the folded players' cards are better.

[bering]

i do not playing poker very often so i don't know this button is necessary or not but if any some people push unfold button
and they have lost i think they will regret their decision

[pawel7777]

NO, terrible idea.
If they unfold their cards, that'll be a disaster for those people who did not fold + they did know the folded players' cards are better.

You mean the same kind of disaster as when someone goes all-in after the flop? Should shoving be banned?

[hopenotlate]

What would be the rule if original folder who wants tu unfold dont have all the chips to cover double the pot amount?
Would he be able to unfold by creating a sidepot (up to the amount he can afford to cover with his chips) and a mainpot or he just could not unfold anymore?

[dooglus]

What would be the rule if original folder who wants tu unfold dont have all the chips to cover double the pot amount?
Would he be able to unfold by creating a sidepot (up to the amount he can afford to cover with his chips) and a mainpot or he just could not unfold anymore?

Either way would work. Making the sidepots seems a little confusing to me at the moment, but would probably work out OK in practice.

[pawel7777]

What would be the rule if original folder who wants tu unfold dont have all the chips to cover double the pot amount?
Would he be able to unfold by creating a sidepot (up to the amount he can afford to cover with his chips) and a mainpot or he just could not unfold anymore?

Either way would work. Making the sidepots seems a little confusing to me at the moment, but would probably work out OK in practice.

That's a good question. I assumed (for simplicity) the player couldn't unfold if he doesn't have enough chips. But this could result in large, strategic pre-flop bets, and I'm not sure whether that would be good. Sidepots make sense, it would be just like as when player goes all-in, except in this case he doesn't make a bet (just donating to the pot) so the others don't have to call and are still in the game.


Other thought: Imagine 2 players who folded (A,B). Now, should all the players (at the table) be able to see that player unfolded as soon as he clicks the button? In such case, if player A has i.e. 4Q folded, then the flop is: 2,7,Q - he might want to unfold but only if player B doesn't do the same (as he could have 2 pairs etc.). So it makes every sense for him to wait and click in the very last second. That's definitely not desirable.

So the best thing would be to reveal all the unfolds all at once at the end of the waiting period (I assumed 5 seconds), but having to wait 5 extra seconds in (almost) every hand would noticeably slow the game down. Reducing the period to <5 sec would be just too short for anyone to make a decision.

[lottery248]

i believe that can be exploitable and someone can just use that method to win easily.

Care to describe the possible exploit you have in mind?

idk. if you suddenly gained a straight flush after folding, you unfolded it, then others would be mad with the winner for sure.

[pawel7777]

i believe that can be exploitable and someone can just use that method to win easily.

Care to describe the possible exploit you have in mind?

idk. if you suddenly gained a straight flush after folding, you unfolded it, then others would be mad with the winner for sure.

No one would be mad. It's no shame to lose to straight flush
But that's poker, you can lose with AA, people get lucky on the river etc. It's not going to be drastically different with 'unfold' option. You'd just need to adjust your strategy.

[WhatTheGox]

This would not work!!! And it`s nor fair to even think about that button. On very simple example:
I have two king`s and I rise 2000 chip`s.
You have 2 and 7 you fold.
.... let`s not look other player`s. So on flop there is next 3 card`s.  2, 2, 7..... So now u are stronger and now your would pay much more then 2000 chip`s. It`s funny when I even think about it. I regreted many times cause I didn`t pay much less then this amount in example but it`s poker. This unfold button is not fair then, why would anyone rise after that?  This is not good idea at all!

Thats why you'd have to pay to buy back into the pot. 

If you really want some smart poker dudes to give this some thoughts could ask over at 2+2.  But hopefully some site in bitcoin land could test this game.