Introducing PevPot.com The Bitcoin Lottery

[gamblebuilder]

I keep telling you, I understand it works, but it isn't provably fair. You cannot tell what time a txid was generated. Take a look at a transaction up close. It doesn't contain a timestamp.

Each round has a timestamp. You can't see it? And you can't tell what time a txid was generated? I have been telling you all the time. Check blockchain.info. If you have even little knowledge of bitcoin, you'd know how to check the time of each txid generated.

I'm not saying that only I can't tell when a transaction was generated, but that it is in general impossible to do so. Blockchain.info can tell you when it first saw a transaction. Sometimes that is half an hour after the transaction was first broadcast, which can be days or years after the transaction was generated.

Can you tell me when this transaction was generated?

Code:

$ echo $x
010000000183e3fe15f5874dae133b8ae1ed5bbeae58f0bf6beecd1ffb4fed8c34f2bfb455010000008a473044022053281a29d107f6ee3c5e0673678c4d245965711dd83321bc2b2cdf5e01f788f6022059219abc99604ca65950776a7bd45c66debb1f0185a9d709c581cdcf169bbd32014104b41d52634460912ca6ca49054a2aaee57c7c3ca1deb00c14984a1087c332b11de9d4098b3147563166b7ffcfd1adbff91320a1312ab1cd843e710379c0a031c7ffffffff0180969800000000001976a91437058d142a1620817b5641534a79edd20013086188ac00000000
$ bitcoin-cli decoderawtransaction $x
{
  "txid": "fa3c30c7821cdff2b191468bd5e9314f82d21d8dd27bc5e4548fcf4c512a2cb5",
  "size": 223,
  "version": 1,
  "locktime": 0,
  "vin": [
    {
      "txid": "55b4bff2348ced4ffb1fcdee6bbff058aebe5bede18a3b13ae4d87f515fee383",
      "vout": 1,
      "scriptSig": {
        "asm": "3044022053281a29d107f6ee3c5e0673678c4d245965711dd83321bc2b2cdf5e01f788f6022059219abc99604ca65950776a7bd45c66debb1f0185a9d709c581cdcf169bbd32[ALL] 04b41d52634460912ca6ca49054a2aaee57c7c3ca1deb00c14984a1087c332b11de9d4098b3147563166b7ffcfd1adbff91320a1312ab1cd843e710379c0a031c7",
        "hex": "473044022053281a29d107f6ee3c5e0673678c4d245965711dd83321bc2b2cdf5e01f788f6022059219abc99604ca65950776a7bd45c66debb1f0185a9d709c581cdcf169bbd32014104b41d52634460912ca6ca49054a2aaee57c7c3ca1deb00c14984a1087c332b11de9d4098b3147563166b7ffcfd1adbff91320a1312ab1cd843e710379c0a031c7"
      },
      "sequence": 4294967295
    }
  ],
  "vout": [
    {
      "value": 0.10000000,
      "n": 0,
      "scriptPubKey": {
        "asm": "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 37058d142a1620817b5641534a79edd200130861 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG",
        "hex": "76a91437058d142a1620817b5641534a79edd20013086188ac",
        "reqSigs": 1,
        "type": "pubkeyhash",
        "addresses": [
          "161vpFLDzh83mhSoS2ExQ5bm6489RaLCgc"
        ]
      }
    }
  ]
}

No, you can't.

Of course, I can't. It's not from bitcoin network. Every hash we used can is real txid  and be verified in bitcoin network. So it, of course, has a timestamp.

We broadcasting our own transactions? That's ridiculous. How we make sure it appears right after 30-seconds up and we can pick it up?

You can 'pick up' any transaction you want to and pretend it was the 'last one'. So long as the timing is nearly right, nobody can argue with you about it. I know you say your site picks fairly, but you can't prove it.

Like I can know what transactions will be in 30 seconds, and  what numbers will be, so I buy tickets to get in that ranges. Are you crazy?

I put the algorithm on the site and you show how you can do it reversely.  Let's say I do buy a tick and my range is in 1000-2000. So I need a number between 1000 and 2000.  And you tell me what exact txid I need and how to generate and broadcast it so I can right pick it up after 30 second.  Please show me and don't just talk shit.  

I would need to know how many satoshis were bet. Then I would generate the number between 1 and 10000 for each of the transactions I have pre-generated using that number of satoshis. About 10% of them would give a number in the range 1000-2000, so on average I would only have to test 10 transactions to find a 'winning' one. I could test 200 transactions and find around 20 winnings ones, and broadcast them every 0.1 seconds for 2 seconds around the target time. One of them will appear on blockchain.info close enough to the closing time to be acceptable as having been fairly selected.

I don't like the way you talking about other site, like you are a supreme people over us. You are not.

I'm not supreme people. I'm trying to help you understand where you're going wrong. You seem not to want to understand.

It's easy to shout out that competitors are not fair and make them look bad.

Some more than others, yes.

If you do have proof, please show it public.  My professor always say to me,  TALK IS CHEAP.  Maybe I should pass it on to you now.

You want me to prove that your game isn't provably fair? How do you propose I do that, other than what I have done already? I have described an attack that you can carry out against the players to make sure you win. The existence of such an attack, even if you never perform it, is enough to demonstrate the lack of provable fairness.

[/quote]

You are clearly don't know what you are talking about.
The lucky number is generated by total number of satoshi and a 64 long hash with SHA512 and get a 128 long hash.  So you want me to do it reversely? Generate a 128 long hash as output and calculate a 64 long hash as input and then broadcast to bitcoin net work.
ARE YOU INSANE?  It is called CRACKING SHA512. Even NSA, CIA can't do it in at least 10 years. So it's provably fair. This is where I keep telling you are wrong, and you don't seem to or want to understand.
Am I talking to a JUNIOR?

I don't why there is another DICE game in the world.  The bitcoin gambling needs NEW BLOOD. It' RAFFLE game. Check out our new site: btc-raffle.com

BTW, I created a open-source DICE game hosted on github ONE year ago. check out https://github.com/popmanhe/node_dice, demo site is ccroll.com Anyone who want to host their own dice game, please feel free to use that.
It's COMPLETELY FREE.  It's not fully done yet.  But it has alreasy have many features, like auto bet, faucet.  I will continue to work on that project when I have time. Or you can help do it by folking the project.
You can also hire me to customize your site and add more features.  Like I did for this site.

[dooglus]

If you have even little knowledge of bitcoin, you'd know how to check the time of each txid generated.

I'm not saying that only I can't tell when a transaction was generated, but that it is in general impossible to do so.

Can you tell me when this transaction was generated?

Of course, I can't. It's not from bitcoin network. Every hash we used can is real txid  and be verified in bitcoin network. So it, of course, has a timestamp.

My point exactly. You can't check the time a txid was generated.

You are using unconfirmed transactions. They don't have timestamps.

blockchain.info assigns timestamps to the txids they happen to notice, but that's just in their own database.

We broadcasting our own transactions? That's ridiculous. How we make sure it appears right after 30-seconds up and we can pick it up?

You can 'pick up' any transaction you want to and pretend it was the 'last one'. So long as the timing is nearly right, nobody can argue with you about it. I know you say your site picks fairly, but you can't prove it.

Like I can know what transactions will be in 30 seconds, and  what numbers will be, so I buy tickets to get in that ranges.

Yes, just like that. Which part do you think you couldn't achieve reliably?

Are you crazy?

No, but so long as my points are valid why would that matter?

I put the algorithm on the site and you show how you can do it reversely.  Let's say I do buy a tick and my range is in 1000-2000. So I need a number between 1000 and 2000.  And you tell me what exact txid I need and how to generate and broadcast it so I can right pick it up after 30 second.  Please show me and don't just talk shit.  

I would need to know how many satoshis were bet. Then I would generate the number between 1 and 10000 for each of the transactions I have pre-generated using that number of satoshis. About 10% of them would give a number in the range 1000-2000, so on average I would only have to test 10 transactions to find a 'winning' one. I could test 200 transactions and find around 20 winnings ones, and broadcast them every 0.1 seconds for 2 seconds around the target time. One of them will appear on blockchain.info close enough to the closing time to be acceptable as having been fairly selected.

You are clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Again with the insults? I clearly know exactly what I'm talking about.

The lucky number is generated by total number of satoshi and a 64 long hash with SHA512 and get a 128 long hash.  So you want me to do it reversely?

No, let's assume hashes are irreversible. Re-read what I wrote - I propose a 'generate and test' scheme, not a 'reverse all the hashes scheme'. I said:

  "I would generate the number between 1 and 10000 for each of the transactions I have pre-generated
   using that number of satoshis. About 10% of them would give a number in the range 1000-2000, so
   on average I would only have to test 10 transactions to find a 'winning' one"

Get it?

Generate a 128 long hash as output and calculate a 64 long hash as input and then broadcast to bitcoin net work.
ARE YOU INSANE?  It is called CRACKING SHA512. Even NSA, CIA can't do it in at least 10 years. So it's provably fair. This is where I keep telling you are wrong, and you don't seem to or want to understand.

Again, read what I wrote. At no point did I suggest reversing any hashes.

Am I talking to a JUNIOR?

No.

I don't why there is another DICE game in the world.

I don't know where this came from. It seems entirely unrelated to anything we're talking about.

You can also hire me to customize your site and add more features.  Like I did for this site.

I would have to be crazy to hire you. You have shown yourself to be incapable of understand basic arguments. You seem to have convinced this btc-raffle guy that you have provided him with a provably fair game when you have done anything but. And when people try to point of where you went wrong you do your best not to understand them. Mr btc-raffle should be asking for his money back. Whatever he paid you was too much.

[gamblebuilder]

 

Dream on. I won't work for you. "YOU" does not mean you.  You don't look like nice guy. 

And I don't want to explain more to you, KID. Go play with your dice game.

[dooglus]

Dream on. I won't work for you. "YOU" does not mean you.  You don't look like nice guy. 

And I don't want to explain more to you, KID. Go play with your dice game.

I answered every one of your comments, and this is all you have for a response?

I think it stands as a brilliant concise demonstration of why nobody should employ you in this field.

1. you're rude, resorting to ad hominem attacks rather than making valid points
2. you haven't researched the field you are attempting to enter
3. you're technically incompetent
4. you can't keep up in a technical discussion
5. you have no interest in understanding where you are wrong

[vendetahome]

it seems to be pretty interesting in my opinion and the prize is huge, the only disadvantage that i can see is that you need to wait a few days for the winner to be drawn what is a really long time in my opinion, though still i think i will participate

[dooglus]

it seems to be pretty interesting in my opinion and the prize is huge, the only disadvantage that i can see is that you need to wait a few days for the winner to be drawn what is a really long time in my opinion, though still i think i will participate

There's one draw every 1000 blocks. Since there are 6 blocks per hour and 24 hours per day, that means there should be one draw every 6.944 days:

  >>> 1000.0 / 24 / 6
  6.9444444

If you don't want to have your coins tied up for too long, you can wait until near the end to buy your tickets. But you get a better share of the "early bird bonus" if you buy your tickets early.

[Straux]

You guys should have a mini-pot section. Maybe the same as the normal pot, but maybe one every five minutes, or maybe a 5 TX max pot, or a 0.005 BTC max bid/max pot size.

I think 1000 blocks is a little overkill for me, I don't really like waiting multiple days, because otherwise I would just Gamble in a real lottery...

[fxmgt]

Hi
Except i would like daily draws or so, and except I can't check if I won as I am too newbie to understand, I think the game is good and Ryan is very fair.

I have NOTHING against a whale coming to put 10BTC in the pot when there is only 0.10.

Indeed he has high odds of winning small, the 0.10 , and low odds of loosing big, the 10 BTC. So no problem at all, even if Ryan was doing this, what he is not.

Sure, this feature may be unpleasant for some, but for me as long as it is fair and EV+ or even only EV=0 then I'm fine.

Ryan decides the rules, there will always be unhappy people, or it does not fit their brain, I understand, Ryan can change rules if he feels it's good. But usually he thinks this quite well....

I am very astonished there is not MUCH MORE people playing.....!

PS : btw a few weeks ago with only 0.05 or so I won about 11BTC, so I took the whale's money

[DarkDays]

Just wanted to report my experience:

I remember reading about this when it first started a couple of months ago and thought it was a great idea but as someone who doesn't like their coins in limbo more than a few hours, I figured I'd check it out down the road when I was able to catch it a few hours before it closed.  

TODAY IS THAT DAY!

I remembered, went to the site and saw that there were a scat few hours until the draw, with 1BTC in the pool and an extra .135BTC as the sponsor bonus.  But wait, it doesn't say "sponsor bonus" anymore, it says "early bird bonus".  What is an early bird bonus?  I went to the FAQ and read...nothing.  I guess my question isn't that frequent.  I went to the first post on this thread and read..."90% of the money the sponsors pay goes directly into the prize pot (we keep 10%)."

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/wth.gif

Went back to the site, but this time I clicked "how it works" and read "In addition to winning the entire pot, the winner also qualifies for a percent of early bird bonus, which is graciously filled by the draw sponsors. The earlier in the draw that you bought your tickets, the more of the early bird bonuses you get!

This is what makes the lottery Positive Expected Value because players get out more than what they do, and is designed to encourage players to not wait until the last moment to buy tickets. "

OK!  But...that still doesn't fill me in.  What is "a percent"?  How often does it go down?  What does it start at?  What does it end at?  

I had to come in here and read every single post in this thread, and in post #104 you explain how it works: "STARTING FROM NEXT DRAW (#3) 10% of sponsorship money goes to me (commission), and the remaining 90% goes to the: "Early bird bonus pool".

When someone wins the lotto, we get the block-height of their transaction and figure out:

Code:(1000 - BLOCKS_SINCE_STARTING)/1000

You get this fraction of "Early bird bonus pool". What ever is left over, will be carried to the next months early bird bonus pool."

Makes sense.  

But, I just wanted to point out that for someone to figure out how the early bird bonus (the part that makes the game +ev) works, they would have to leave the site, know to come to this site, know to find this thread (currently on the second page), know to ignore the first post, and know to go to the 104th post.  That's a lot of work, not to mention the site itself is a little misleading since it states a static bonus (.135BTC) when in reality if I send money now, I'd only be eligable for a bonus of .00486BTC.  Obv nothing shady is going on and I'm still excited to try it out, but imo the bonus system needs to be explained a little better on the site.

[coinableS]

I am very astonished there is not MUCH MORE people playing.....!

Just my personal opinion, I really think it has to do with the name, pevpot. I think a lot more people would play if they knew it was a lottery ran by the moneypot/bust-a-bit crew. There are always a ton of players at bustabit... maybe they can start promoting it at bustabit?

[Financisto]

Nice and innovative lottery project. Congratulations!

It loosely reminds me of a crazy idea (not so +EV) I had long ago:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=409660.0

If marketing is well done, your project may become the Google of lotteries! 

BTW (talking about Google) why not displaying AdWords like style of ads from sponsors alongside with their banners/images?

Pot decreased considerably...

Tip: raise min ticket purchase to .001 BTC so things get more interesting once more...

Some more suggestions:

I think one draw every two days would be great after this project (pot) gets more gamblers' attention (money).

Although Sponsors should buy adds for a whole week in order to get exposure for their business.

Think about it!

[Chemistry1988]

I am very astonished there is not MUCH MORE people playing.....!

Just my personal opinion, I really think it has to do with the name, pevpot. I think a lot more people would play if they knew it was a lottery ran by the moneypot/bust-a-bit crew. There are always a ton of players at bustabit... maybe they can start promoting it at bustabit?

I actually quite like the name PevPot (which I assume "Pev" stands for "Positive EV"). The name is short and is very easy to remember IMO. Ryan could do a bit more in advertising the site though.

[dooglus]

I have NOTHING against a whale coming to put 10BTC in the pot when there is only 0.10.

Me neither.

Any "real" lottery you see will have millions of players, and you have a tiny chance of winning a huge jackpot.

Nobody complains that their chance of winning is too small.

Who cares if there are a million players betting $1 each or one player betting $1 million? The result is the same: you have a 1 in a million chance of winning a million dollars...

Just wanted to report my experience:

tl;dr: The site needs updating to talk about the early-bird bonus and how it shrinks over time. Good point.

[dooglus]

I actually quite like the name PevPot (which I assume "Pev" stands for "Positive EV"). The name is short and is very easy to remember IMO. Ryan could do a bit more in advertising the site though.

I guess the problem is that being +EV the site makes very little money for itself. Ryan takes 10% of the sponsorship money, which most weeks seems to be just 0.1 BTC from Just-Dice and 0.05 BTC from Ryan - so he makes a 0.04 BTC loss each week, before paying for hosting or advertising. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for an advertising budget I guess!

I expect his hope was that word of a +EV lottery word spread virally - it's not often you find a +EV game run by a trusted community member after all. It's unfortunate that the game isn't more popular, but I guess most people don't recognise a good deal when they see it.

[Chemistry1988]

I actually quite like the name PevPot (which I assume "Pev" stands for "Positive EV"). The name is short and is very easy to remember IMO. Ryan could do a bit more in advertising the site though.

I guess the problem is that being +EV the site makes very little money for itself. Ryan takes 10% of the sponsorship money, which most weeks seems to be just 0.1 BTC from Just-Dice and 0.05 BTC from Ryan - so he makes a 0.04 BTC loss each week, before paying for hosting or advertising. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for an advertising budget I guess!

I expect his hope was that word of a +EV lottery word spread virally - it's not often you find a +EV game run by a trusted community member after all. It's unfortunate that the game isn't more popular, but I guess most people don't recognise a good deal when they see it.

Hmmm I knew it doesn't get many sponsors but I didn't know it was so bad. Speaking of advertising, there are a few ways on my mind that will hopefully help it get more popular without much budget:
1. Ryan could bump the thread daily (cannot do it sooner than 24 hours or it will be against the rule of bitcointalk) so to get more new users be aware of the site.
2. I knew there is already a subtle mentioning of Pevpot on BAB front page, but I guess it could be made more noticeable.
3. From the above posts, it seems many users don't enjoy waiting for a few days to get the lotto result, so may be there could be a new lotto which runs for every 100 blocks. The new 100-block lotto would probably only share a small proportion of the sponsors pot such that it will still be +EV, while the original 1000-block lotto would not be heavily affected.

[VTC]

Draw 9
./stretch 000000000000000002b3414231a4306c71440840f75dbdfe46ab2782fac58c55
a651027b6e80017a26e34c8c94ee664d4a0e14fd23196c6714b9b6a8c20d813d

Winning Ticket: 8,582,043

[marketingcoin]

This is my first time trying it, i sent some mbtc before the drawing 6 end. How to know who win?

[RHavar]

Running draw #9 now, lets see who won!


As for the site, the whole point of it for me was that it's a low-maintenance site. Just once a week I pay out the winner. I'm probably never going have the energy to actively market or advertise it. I really just built the site for the fun of building it, as I thought it  a neat idea, so I built it. If it spreads virally, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, oh well. But my main project is bustabit  (and with about ~150 people online right now, and ~700 BTC/wager a day, it keeps me pretty busy )

But it seems like a pretty awesome place to advertise, here's our traffic stats from google analytics:



not bad when you can get a listing on the homepage for like 0.001 BTC

[RHavar]

Draw 9
./stretch 000000000000000002b3414231a4306c71440840f75dbdfe46ab2782fac58c55
a651027b6e80017a26e34c8c94ee664d4a0e14fd23196c6714b9b6a8c20d813d

Winning Ticket: 8,582,043

That's would mean: https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/2b5c07d866e7219684646ea617853dbac4b67571bd670526af9493d6a89a2c5f?txoutIdx=0  is the winner for draw #9. Just verifying that right stretched hash right now =)

[Financisto]

Maybe some signature campaign might help increasing pot's volume and lottery's visitors/gamblers.