Will Mt. Gox US Bank accounts eventually get frozen?

[Steve]

I'm not meaning to spread any fear about mtgox, I love the service...but this has to be on peoples' minds (especially considering Schumer's presser).

On this note, I'd like to once again mention the need for a new kind of decentralized p2p exchange using a ripplepay type of system for settlement.  I see several components to such a system:

- order listing and announcement ...orders with the required collateral (bitcoins or ripple-debt contracts) are placed with trusted third parties and order book information made available to the public
- order matching engines (people collect orders they hear about and match them to other orders...exchanging ripple-debt for bitcoins in the process and providing trade data to the public ...these matching engines would need to not only match orders, but match only orders where there is a path with sufficient credit connecting the buyer and seller through the ripple-debt network)
- ripple-debt super nodes ...this are nodes in the ripple trust network that have many trust relationships...these nodes can optionally choose to accept deposits of various currencies in exchange for ripple credit
- settlement of ripple credit ...to periodically rebalance credit in the system, people would pay some form of currency to settle their ripple debts (in cases where they had not pre-paid)

If there were open source implementations of these various components of the system that made it trivial for anyone to operate any component of this system, I think bitcoin trading would be much less vulnerable than it is today.

[malditonuke]

where is the "> 3 years" option?   

[Steve]

I figured it would either be within 3 years or never. 

[mikewillz]

If they do just leave the damn country, and change currencies before you go lol

[FreeMoney]

If they do just leave the damn country, and change currencies before you go lol

To what? Already using Bitcoin 

[mikewillz]

I'm a idiot! In other news we shouldn't be talking about Mt gox and freezing especially since I got a grand pending 

[S3052]

I thought MtGox is now located in Japan.

Do they have an US account?

[Horkabork]

Mt. Gox isn't going to get closed by the US government. At most if for some outlandish reason, transfers to and from Dwolla and bank accounts gets spanked, then this will be like poker websites, Suprnova.org, Napster, and the myriad of other examples where killing a centralized, popular "agent" of technology just increases the number of users drastically and creates 10 other entities that replace it.

Or transfers will just get slightly more annoying, such as there being another entity of some sort between Mt. Gox and people's bank accounts.

By the way, this is a US-centric discussion and Bitcoin is pretty darn diverse.

[S3052]

Mt. Gox isn't going to get closed by the US government. At most if for some outlandish reason, transfers to and from Dwolla and bank accounts gets spanked, then this will be like poker websites, Suprnova.org, Napster, and the myriad of other examples where killing a centralized, popular "agent" of technology just increases the number of users drastically and creates 10 other entities that replace it.

Or transfers will just get slightly more annoying, such as there being another entity of some sort between Mt. Gox and people's bank accounts.

By the way, this is a US-centric discussion and Bitcoin is pretty darn diverse.

+1

[Anonymous]

Search for the anonymous exchange thats in the works...

[Steve]

Mt. Gox isn't going to get closed by the US government. At most if for some outlandish reason, transfers to and from Dwolla and bank accounts gets spanked, then this will be like poker websites, Suprnova.org, Napster, and the myriad of other examples where killing a centralized, popular "agent" of technology just increases the number of users drastically and creates 10 other entities that replace it.

Or transfers will just get slightly more annoying, such as there being another entity of some sort between Mt. Gox and people's bank accounts.

By the way, this is a US-centric discussion and Bitcoin is pretty darn diverse.

Just to clarify...the poll is specifically about their US based bank account(s).  They have other banks accounts from what I understand.  Also, I do believe their servers are located in TX at the moment.  I think you are correct that such a problem would quickly get routed around (there are already other fully operational exchanges and mtgox itself is pretty international and I'm sure could adapt if something like this occurs).

[Freakin]

Mt. Gox isn't going to get closed by the US government. At most if for some outlandish reason, transfers to and from Dwolla and bank accounts gets spanked, then this will be like poker websites, Suprnova.org, Napster, and the myriad of other examples where killing a centralized, popular "agent" of technology just increases the number of users drastically and creates 10 other entities that replace it.

Or transfers will just get slightly more annoying, such as there being another entity of some sort between Mt. Gox and people's bank accounts.

By the way, this is a US-centric discussion and Bitcoin is pretty darn diverse.

um, the poker sites have effectively been defeated in the US.

It has been a slow death but since UIGEA in 2006 the US Gov't has gone after one payment processor after another until there were no options left.  10 more didn't replace Neteller when it left, or Click2Pay, or ePassporte, etc etc etc

[cloud9]

Shouldn't MtGox be fine as long as it complies with AML and KYC regulations for US customers?  AML (Anti Money Laundering) and KYC (Know your customer) is not airlines chicken fast food outlets, b.t.w.    Isn't it regulations that stemmed from the Patriot Act following 9/11?

[cypherdoc]

try Ubitex

[alkor]

With two US senators alerting the Department of Justice about the situation with Silk Road, I think we will see bank accounts frozen relatively soon a la wikileaks.

[lemonginger]

Mt. Gox isn't going to get closed by the US government. At most if for some outlandish reason, transfers to and from Dwolla and bank accounts gets spanked, then this will be like poker websites

yes, there's so many poker websites currently functional for US customers. No funds frozen or anything.

also, unlike poker, the US isn't the only country that will likely fight back against what they see as a money-laundering scheme. I would expect that before too long (within a year) there will be some exchanges effectively shut down and possibly some other ones that just take the money and disappear into cyberspace.

Growing pains. That's all. Can't stop a peer-to-peer service.

[cloud9]

I'm not meaning to spread any fear about mtgox, I love the service...but this has to be on peoples' minds (especially considering Schumer's presser).

Are you not jumping to conclusions?  

Isn't Silk Road (not Bitcoin  ) the illegal business called for to be shut down?  Is a person not within his rights when he trades freely for a pair of cryptographic keys of which one is publicly recognizable? Is money (cash) laundering or another medium of exchange laundering (bitcoins) not a willful act?  Is Bitcoin laundering part of the standard system / bitcoin client?  Or do you need to be willfully laundering Bitcoins?  Wouldn't it do Bitcoin's reputation good if authorities can get to Silk Road using the Bitcoin blockchain in their investigation?  Just one misstep somewhere?  Will it not be an easier investigation than tracking conventional cash transactions? If investigators ask questions, will you not be required to just prove where you got your Bitcoins from?  If you did not get them from bitcoin laundering, and you bought/trade them for legitimate goods/services/other and can prove it, are you not on the right side of the law? Wouldn't you just begin your investigation at sites like this http://bitcoinlaundry.com/ (and connect the dots) ?

Two US senators are asking federal authorities to crack down on an online narcotics market that accepts 'virtual' currency.

The 'Dark Web', an anonymous and secretive online community that trades in heroin, cocaine and methamphetamines among other drugs, has been operating unhindered for months.

The two senators have written to the US Justice Department and Drug Enforcement Administration asking them to shut down and investigate the site.

Al Jazeera's John Terrett reports.

source:  

Bitcoin just appeared on Al Jazeera:
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/americas/2011/06/20116655012909169.html

Two US senators are asking federal authorities to crack down on an online narcotics market that accepts 'virtual' currency.

The 'Dark Web', an anonymous and secretive online community that trades in heroin, cocaine and methamphetamines among other drugs, has been operating unhindered for months.

The two senators have written to the US Justice Department and Drug Enforcement Administration asking them to shut down and investigate the site.

Al Jazeera's John Terrett reports.

[rebuilder]

I think anyone operating an exchange, especially with their real names on the line, is much braver than I am. As far as Mt Gox goes, given how seriously they seem to be taking their business and expansion, I can't imagine they haven't considered their options in case of government interference.

[cloud9]

Can't even paypal be used for laundering?  If Sam buys socks for John, and John buys drugs for Sam at Silk Road by paying Silk Road's Skype account, haven't they just been laundering paypal credit?  Should paypal be banned if it enables people to buy drugs anonymously?  Or should paypal credit laundering be banned?

How is there a connection between Sam and John on paypal?  If Sam paid socks - and it's proxy delivered to John how does paypal know about the connection between Sam and John?  If John pays for a Skype number's credit and hand the password to Silk Road and Silk Road delivers drugs to Sam, how does paypal know about the connection between Silk Road and Sam?

Isn't the problem with laundering bitcoins, and not with bitcoins?

[error]

Hell, MtGox could just start issuing Visa debit cards. Only have BTC in your account? Using the card causes an immediate sell order on the backend, and your merchant gets USD or whatever.

[gigitrix]

Are you not jumping to conclusions?  

Isn't Silk Road (not Bitcoin  ) the illegal business called for to be shut down?

Given the technologies used, it is unlikely that this is possible. Therefore it is reasonable (but by no means a certainty) to assume that the US government will "lash out", restricting the flow in any way it can. I personally don't think it will come to that but it's very very possible, especially once bitcoins are implicated more publicly in child pornography and the like.

[alkor]

Are you not jumping to conclusions?  

Isn't Silk Road (not Bitcoin  ) the illegal business called for to be shut down?  

I think it is quite obvious that they are using Silk Road as an excuse to go after Bitcoin. The real target here is Bitcoin, and not Silk Road.

[realnowhereman]

Here's a possible scenario:

• Mt.Gox US bank account frozen.
• Rush of people to get out any way they can; like say: buying bitcoins, moving them to a new exchange and converting back to dollars there
• That would require a willing buyer of dollars.  If I were wealthy, I might judge that the chance of the bank account eventually becoming unfrozen was 50:50.  So I offer 49 cents on the dollar to sell bitcoins to those desperate souls.
• Their money is unlocked (since the bitcoin accounts cannot be frozen), and I have an investment.

Choose your figures to taste.

The market always provides a solution when it's free to trade; and Bitcoins make it impossible to stop trade.

[gene]

Bitcoin is the target. One obvious hint is that it hasn't been mentioned by name in Schumer's pressers. It is referred to as a means of laudering money (ie the demonic other).

This is a race. Either the bitcoin community realizes that the PR race is real (where bitcoin is quickly falling behind) and gets its act together, or bitcoin will be marginalized and crushed (via technical attacks to the network, if necessary), along with other similar technologies.

The community would be well advised to understand that bitcoin can still easily lose this race.

[beastY]

Are we there already?:



"... and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark ... "



Its a quote from a famous book.  Don't think its talking about the German Deutch mark   ?



Or have we already been there all along?



Is Bitcoin a threat to freedom of commerce medium, or is it providing wider medium choice?

[unk]

as i pointed out, the analyst using the name 'computerscientist' pointed this out a long time ago and suggested a significant risk even for individuals using money to transfer to an unregistered 'financial exchange' that law-enforcement agencies implicate in money-laundering efforts:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1090435/?start=192

Speaking generally, though, individual users of these exchanges risk having their assets and accounts frozen, risk running afoul of money-laundering laws, and generally risk losing even more than they put into the system.

this panned out when i asked financial colleagues who were concerned about the matter, and i posted that concern here but was roundly criticised for doing so. i still think it's a concern, and it's one of the reasons i haven't sold my pile of bitcoins from early mining at these prices. (the others are mostly ethical.)

[Freakin]

Hell, MtGox could just start issuing Visa debit cards. Only have BTC in your account? Using the card causes an immediate sell order on the backend, and your merchant gets USD or whatever.

they're working on it...

[lemonginger]

Growing pains. That's all. Can't stop a peer-to-peer service.

--

Chicago Tribune today:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-financial-bitcoitre7573t3-20110608,0,6328122.story
One user described this process as simply "growing pains" and asserted that the government "can't stop a peer-to-peer service."

--

Sweet, I made the paper

[CoinMonster]

Can't even paypal be used for laundering?  If Sam buys socks for John, and John buys drugs for Sam at Silk Road by paying Silk Road's Skype account, haven't they just been laundering paypal credit?  Should paypal be banned if it enables people to buy drugs anonymously?  Or should paypal credit laundering be banned?

How is there a connection between Sam and John on paypal?  If Sam paid socks - and it's proxy delivered to John how does paypal know about the connection between Sam and John?  If John pays for a Skype number's credit and hand the password to Silk Road and Silk Road delivers drugs to Sam, how does paypal know about the connection between Silk Road and Sam?

Isn't the problem with laundering bitcoins, and not with bitcoins?

Have you written a single sentence on this forum that did not end in a question mark?

[Steve]

Here's a possible scenario:

• Mt.Gox US bank account frozen.
• Rush of people to get out any way they can; like say: buying bitcoins, moving them to a new exchange and converting back to dollars there
• That would require a willing buyer of dollars.  If I were wealthy, I might judge that the chance of the bank account eventually becoming unfrozen was 50:50.  So I offer 49 cents on the dollar to sell bitcoins to those desperate souls.
• Their money is unlocked (since the bitcoin accounts cannot be frozen), and I have an investment.

Choose your figures to taste.

The market always provides a solution when it's free to trade; and Bitcoins make it impossible to stop trade.

Wouldn't that be ironic...that a crackdown on bitcoin by governments actually stimulated bartering in bitcoin.

[bit691207]

I thought MtGox is now located in Japan.

Do they have an US account?

MtGox seems to be located in France. I just sent EUR to MtGox and the bank account information they gave me for that purpose refers to a French Bank account:

Bank details:
 Account Owner: MACARAJA SAS
 Bank Name: CIC
 BIC: CMCIFRPP
 IBAN: FR76 3006 6109 7100 0200 1720 142
 Address: 9 avenue Pierre Sangnier / 94350 Villiers sur marne / France

[bitdragon]

I thought MtGox is now located in Japan.

Do they have an US account?

MtGox seems to be located in France. I just sent EUR to MtGox and the bank account information they gave me for that purpose refers to a French Bank account:

Bank details:
 Account Owner: MACARAJA SAS
 Bank Name: CIC
 BIC: CMCIFRPP
 IBAN: FR76 3006 6109 7100 0200 1720 142
 Address: 9 avenue Pierre Sangnier / 94350 Villiers sur marne / France

That account is only for Euro deposits and these deposits do seem indeed to be handled in France. But Mtgox is managed in Japan.

Wouldn't that be ironic...that a crackdown on bitcoin by governments actually stimulated bartering in bitcoin.

That is the wonders of censoring something. Over the last years, my stance on censoring has greatly changed. The more the cabal tries to crack down on something, the more and greater the innovation. They are doomed no matter what, and we get some bumps on the road.

[fornit]

i think the market needs a lot more competitors. right now, if mtgox loses its ability to pay in us dollars, it would suffer a lot. in turn, the whole market suffers a lot. so mtgox needs more withdrawal options and the market as a whole needs more mtgoxes.
if you havent, take a look at tradehill (link in signature). i think it might be a very good alternative with its many payout options and lower fees. of cause, two exchanges still wont cut it, put its certainly better than just one.

[epi 1:10,000]

as i pointed out, the analyst using the name 'computerscientist' pointed this out a long time ago and suggested a significant risk even for individuals using money to transfer to an unregistered 'financial exchange' that law-enforcement agencies implicate in money-laundering efforts:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1090435/?start=192

Speaking generally, though, individual users of these exchanges risk having their assets and accounts frozen, risk running afoul of money-laundering laws, and generally risk losing even more than they put into the system.

this panned out when i asked financial colleagues who were concerned about the matter, and i posted that concern here but was roundly criticised for doing so. i still think it's a concern, and it's one of the reasons i haven't sold my pile of bitcoins from early mining at these prices. (the others are mostly ethical.)

Thx for the link Unk.  That certainly helped to illuminate some of the potential legal problems that I was unaware of.  I would certainly suggest others reed the post for further information.  It was my impression that Mtgox was doing its due diligence to try to comply with the law but if computerscientist claims are true will they ever be able to satisfactorily comply with U.S. and/or regional laws?  Does anyone have any more info/links in layman's language from reputable sources on potential legal statutes that would help define a legal exchange as it relates to bitcoin?

[asdf]

Growing pains. That's all. Can't stop a peer-to-peer service.

--

Chicago Tribune today:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-financial-bitcoitre7573t3-20110608,0,6328122.story
One user described this process as simply "growing pains" and asserted that the government "can't stop a peer-to-peer service."

--

Sweet, I made the paper

lol, awesome dude!