Turkey shoots down russian military plane on Syria border

[Pegas]

Turkey shoots down military plane on Syria border

Turkey on Tuesday shot down a military plane on the Syrian border, local media reported, citing military sources.

A plane exploded in the air and the fireball fell on a Turkmen mountain on the Syrian side of the border, CNN-Turk and NTV televisions reported.

A Turkish government official told AFP: "We are tying to identify the nationality of the plane."

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/turkey-shoots-down-military-plane-syria-border-media-081827673.html

Downed foreign jet received 10 warnings in five minutes, challenged by two F-16s, Turkish General Staff says

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkSvH9WcAA3f8-.jpg

AFP : #BREAKING Two pilots ejected from downed plane, one captured by Syria rebels: Turkish reports

[1715131135]

1715131135

[saddampbuh]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

[Pegas]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

nope, just two years of russian provocations on the borders of NATO have completed just such a "landing" for the Russian aircraft

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkT9G1VAAEWqRL.jpg

[Pegas]

Russia has been violating NATO airspace for yrs w/ no consequences. Blame for Su24 downing lies with Putin & his disregard for intl law. 

[RejiDevsa]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

nope, just two years of russian provocations on the borders of NATO have completed just such a "landing" for the Russian aircraft

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkT9G1VAAEWqRL.jpg

And NATO does the same thing. In this case, the Russians say they didn't violate Turkish airspace. But it doesn't matter now. This is just going to increase tensions in the region unnecessarily.

Russia has been violating NATO airspace for yrs w/ no consequences. Blame for Su24 downing lies with Putin & his disregard for intl law. 

It's not like NATO is any better.

[Pegas]

BREAKING : Turkey urgently convene the NATO and the UN to consult

BREAKING: Russian FM Lavrov cancels trip to Ankara following downing of Russian jet over

PHOTO: Flight radar track on downed warplane issued by Turkish military

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkdnCuW4AAxX9L.png

[Pegas]

Dead Russian pilot after Su-24 shot down over Latakia province

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cdkf3Xx3nw

[HWoodrow]

Hope that nothing will happen. It is very hard to prevent what will happen. Target was that every west state must be united in way to fight against the ISIS.

[bitcollins85]

Middle east is very complicated and problematic places in the world. I really doubt that it will be OK sooner.
I think last action taken by Turkey will be starting of  a new warish (hopefully not war) situation.

[Tzupy]

[Lauda]

-snip-

Where did you get this image from? AFAIK it was not violating airspace and even if it was there was no attempted contact with the pilot. This pretty much shows who is supporting and who is fighting the terrorists. One could even see this as an act of war. Here's Putin talking about it. Instead of imminently contacting Russia, they want to contact NATO first.

Russia has been violating NATO airspace for yrs w/ no consequences. Blame for Su24 downing lies with Putin & his disregard for intl law.  

Stop supporting Western terrorist coalition. Stop being ignorant and wake up.

[Pegas]

REPORTS: Multiple reports on social media of Russian helicopter assisting in search & rescue downed by TOW missile. More info when available reuters

Where did you get this image from? AFAIK it was not violating airspace and even if it was there was no attempted contact with the pilot. This pretty much shows who is supporting and who is fighting the terrorists. One could even see this as an act of war. Here's Putin talking about it.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7343nXyGS0s) Instead of imminently contacting Russia, they want to contact NATO first.

need less to listen to Putin, such liars the world did not know

[cabsav]

-snip-

Where did you get this image from? AFAIK it was not violating airspace and even if it was there was no attempted contact with the pilot. This pretty much shows who is supporting and who is fighting the terrorists. One could even see this as an act of war. Here's Putin talking about it. Instead of imminently contacting Russia, they want to contact NATO first.

Russia has been violating NATO airspace for yrs w/ no consequences. Blame for Su24 downing lies with Putin & his disregard for intl law.  

Stop supporting Western terrorist coalition. Stop being ignorant and wake up.

of course they will go nato first. when you have fight do you go to your home first or your fight partner home?
They will inform nato then they will communicate with Russia with nato. If you are in nato u cannot act like whatever you want.

[Lauda]

If you are in nato u cannot act like whatever you want.

Apparently you can shoot friendly planes at wish or are you implying that someone in NATO gave the go signal for this attack?

[Nishashah]

we are heading towards 3rd World War.

[Pab]

Russian fighter has been shuted down on Turkey Teritory by two Turkiey fighters
live on Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

[gurcani]

You won't have a WW3 from this. But Turkey is totally dependant on Russian gas. Russia is Turkey's largest natural gas supplier, with Ankara buying 28-30 billion cubic meters of its 50 bcm of natural gas needs annually from Russia. Russia is also building a nuclear power station in Turkey.

These deals could be cancelled in Russian terms, and Turkey would have a very hard winter:

Turkey imports Russian gas primarily through two pipelines, one passing through the northwestern region of Thrace, the other entering Turkey from under the Black Sea.
"No gas entry from Thrace means the end of Turkey as that gas pipeline feeds all of Istanbul and the Marmara region. There is no alternative pipeline system that can bring this gas."

[Tzupy]

The Su-24 was downed by a missile, that was launched while it was still in Turkish airspace (barely).
Several seconds later it was hit, about 1 km inside Syrian airspace, and crashed about 4 km inside Syrian territory.
That territory is not controlled by daesh, but by Turkmen militias, that oppose Assad.
It seems that one of the pilots was shot by the militias and soon died, the other has been captured and is still alive.

[Pegas]

FSA 1st Coastal Division destroying a Russian helicopter w/TOW, was already down
Helicopter was sent to rescue downed Russian pilots shot down by Turkey earlier today


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0

[Ankara]

If it crosses Hatay border Turkey has right to shoot any flying creature. That's out of discussion.

[croato]

Turkey is playing dangerous game. I dont think this act will trigger world war or anything but Turkey will suffer great for that, they still need Russian gas and Russia have even nuclear plant project there in work. Anyway, now is clear that Turkey as Muslim country openly support their ISIS brothers. I dont think that incident is not intended.

[cabsav]

Turkey is playing dangerous game. I dont think this act will trigger world war or anything but Turkey will suffer great for that, they still need Russian gas and Russia have even nuclear plant project there in work. Anyway, now is clear that Turkey as Muslim country openly support their ISIS brothers. I dont think that incident is not intended.

Turkey is not playing dangerous game. they already on game. Turkey has border with syria and iraq and all the war around his borders. Turkey inform 2 years ago after his aircraft attack by Syria airforces ,they will shoot any objects on border without asking anyone. All countries aware of this and already Turkey shoot i think 2 syrian aircraft .Do you know a month before 100 people killed by isis attack in capital city of Turkey?just like Paris.
i dont think they will stop gas or nuclear plant. money is everything in this world. tomorrow u probably already forget about this situation.

[Snail2]

Well, after losing lots of smuggled half or third price oil every day and also losing their main tools against the kurds I'm not surprised if the turks are pissed off now.

[SyGambler]

Turkey is supporting ISIS , they were buying oils from ISIS and support them with weapons but today's act is so shameful
by targeting a Russian striker they are showing that they support ISIS
Russia is saying that the striker didn't cross the boarders , I can't find any reason to target this striker
Russia will never attack Turkey without a reason so the striker didn't threaten Turkey
this time even US can't help Turkey

[BADecker]

Turkey shoots down Russian military plane on Syria border.

This only happened because Russians don't celebrate Thanksgiving Day. If they did, they would have gotten the Turkey.

 

[gurcani]

Do you know a month before 100 people killed by isis attack in capital city of Turkey?just like Paris.

Yeah. Except those people were kurdish (the same people fighting ISIS in Rojova), and they were demonstrating against Erdogan's government. Erdogan supports ISIS, and ISIS attacks Turkey (under Erdogan's watch probably) to kill Kurds. There is no inconsistency there.

What is more troubling is the question that while ISIS makes an official announcement after each of their terrorist acts (you know white on blue background, with the ISIS logo on the top left). They never did this for Ankara. Even though the people who carried out the bombing were ISIS guys. So how does one explain that apart from someone else who benefits from what happened, who has ties to ISIS, using these guys?

[Tzupy]

Two Russian helicopters, apparently Mi-8 and Mi-24, were searching for the two pilots of the Su-24, which BTW are reported killed by the Turkmen militias.
The Mi-8 made an emergency landing and then was destroyed with a TOW missile.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dcd_1448376551

[sartorpc]

Do you know a month before 100 people killed by isis attack in capital city of Turkey?just like Paris.

Yeah. Except those people were kurdish (the same people fighting ISIS in Rojova), and they were demonstrating against Erdogan's government. Erdogan supports ISIS, and ISIS attacks Turkey (under Erdogan's watch probably) to kill Kurds. There is no inconsistency there.

What is more troubling is the question that while ISIS makes an official announcement after each of their terrorist acts (you know white on blue background, with the ISIS logo on the top left). They never did this for Ankara. Even though the people who carried out the bombing were ISIS guys. So how does one explain that apart from someone else who benefits from what happened, who has ties to ISIS, using these guys?

This is very insightfull, can you post some source about this? never thought Turkey gov was supporting ISIS.

[catch.me.if.you.can]

Russia will support Kurds now. 

[spazzdla]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

This :S..

[sartorpc]

Russia will support Kurds now. 

They should, kurds rock!

[Balthazar]

Russia has been violating NATO airspace for yrs w/ no consequences. Blame for Su24 downing lies with Putin & his disregard for intl law.  

Stop supporting Western terrorist coalition. Stop being ignorant and wake up.

You're talking with ukrainian. I wouldn't expect him to think logically.

[Balthazar]

Russia will support Kurds now. 

Yep, Erdogan is a clown. Viva Kurdish People's Republic.

[Starin]

Do you know a month before 100 people killed by isis attack in capital city of Turkey?just like Paris.

Yeah. Except those people were kurdish (the same people fighting ISIS in Rojova), and they were demonstrating against Erdogan's government. Erdogan supports ISIS, and ISIS attacks Turkey (under Erdogan's watch probably) to kill Kurds. There is no inconsistency there.

What is more troubling is the question that while ISIS makes an official announcement after each of their terrorist acts (you know white on blue background, with the ISIS logo on the top left). They never did this for Ankara. Even though the people who carried out the bombing were ISIS guys. So how does one explain that apart from someone else who benefits from what happened, who has ties to ISIS, using these guys?

I'm sorry, but as an outsider, you guys have no idea what's really going on in Middle East. Every single government, terrorist organization is either supported/created by powerful countries or by those who have capital (basically the same reason with countries = money, money and more money). So, every single act, every single incident that concerns or happened in Middle East is either planned or conflict between those who created these terrorists groups or actually controls Middle Eastern government. You will never be able to see and understand it unless you come and live here. I'm just laughing how ignorant some of you guys are. You think a small group of uneducated dickheads does have the ability to form a world-wide terrorist group called ISIS. Wake up, you are all being controlled. The Matrix has you.

[galdur]

This could get even more complicated soon. Turkey, a NATO member, shoots down a Russian plane messing with oil shipments from ISIS - a creation of NATO/U.S.  big friend and bosom buddy Saudi Arabia with help from the friends of course. Let´s say Russia retaliates by shooting down a Turkish plane. I know I would be pissed if creators and sponsors of terrorists were messing with my efforts to wipe out the terrorists. But the nutbags in charge of NATO would obviously interpret this as an attack on a NATO member and thus an attack on all NATO members, creators and sponsors of the terrorists included.

[J. J. Phillips]

If the turks ask NATO for help, I hope the French throw this back at their fucking faces:

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/11/18/video-turkish-fans-jeer-chant-allahu-akbar-during-moment-of-silence-for-paris-victims/

The turks are animals. They were when they committed genocide against the Armenians and they still are today. Fuck the turks. If you want to see what subhuman animals the turks are read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Still denied by the modern turks to this day. It's no surprise that they'd vote for braindead islamofascists like erdogan over and over. That's who they are.

Maybe today's the day to pay the turks what history owes them.

[bryant.coleman]

Turkey is like a rabid dog which needs to be put down. The Turks needs to be deported back to Mongolia, from where they had originated. Most of the present day Turkey belongs to White Christian ethnic groups such as Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians. Also, the Kurds living in the South-eastern part of Turkey should be given sovereignty.

[spazzdla]

These bastards tried to wipe out an entire race.. I have no mercy for what vegence finds them.

[galdur]

Even NATO nutbags are forced to admit that Turkey acted crazy

In Brussels, Nato officials say Russian jet entered Turkish airspace before it was shot down. Earlier the US said the Russian incursion into Turkish air space lasted just seconds. Nato ambassadors apparently believe Turkey could have shown more restraint. This from Reuters.

Diplomats present at the meeting told Reuters that while none of the 28 Nato envoys defended Russia’s actions, many expressed concern that Turkey did not escort the Russian warplane out of its airspace. “There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents,” said one diplomat who declined to be named.

[bryant.coleman]

Even NATO nutbags are forced to admit that Turkey acted crazy

I don't think so. I am getting the impression that all the major NATO warmongers are solidly behind the scumbag Erdogan. A few minutes ago, Obama defended the Turkish dictator. And I heard Jens Stoltenberg (Secretary General of NATO) defending the Turkish actions. Anyway, I don't care. Russia should nuke Istanbul and Ankara. Let's see how many of these NATO nuts will come to the rescue of the Turks.

[RodeoX]

Even NATO nutbags are forced to admit that Turkey acted crazy

In Brussels, Nato officials say Russian jet entered Turkish airspace before it was shot down. Earlier the US said the Russian incursion into Turkish air space lasted just seconds. Nato ambassadors apparently believe Turkey could have shown more restraint. This from Reuters.

Diplomats present at the meeting told Reuters that while none of the 28 Nato envoys defended Russia’s actions, many expressed concern that Turkey did not escort the Russian warplane out of its airspace. “There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents,” said one diplomat who declined to be named.

I think it was a rash decision to shoot it down also. But nations do not like to see warplanes in their airspace. Turkey may just not be afraid of Russia and think that Putin has few options to respond. That could turn out to be a miscalculation.

[galdur]

Even NATO nutbags are forced to admit that Turkey acted crazy

In Brussels, Nato officials say Russian jet entered Turkish airspace before it was shot down. Earlier the US said the Russian incursion into Turkish air space lasted just seconds. Nato ambassadors apparently believe Turkey could have shown more restraint. This from Reuters.

Diplomats present at the meeting told Reuters that while none of the 28 Nato envoys defended Russia’s actions, many expressed concern that Turkey did not escort the Russian warplane out of its airspace. “There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents,” said one diplomat who declined to be named.

I think it was a rash decision to shoot it down also. But nations do not like to see warplanes in their airspace. Turkey may just not be afraid of Russia and think that Putin has few options to respond. That could turn out to be a miscalculation.

If they don´t like seeing foreign warplanes in their airspace maybe they should stop tootsie-footing with terrorists running around this way and that over their borders. I mean; all this hypocritic shitpile from Washington to Ankara via headchopping medieval fruitcakes in Saudi Arabia is supposed to be fighting terrorism right?

[RodeoX]

Even NATO nutbags are forced to admit that Turkey acted crazy

In Brussels, Nato officials say Russian jet entered Turkish airspace before it was shot down. Earlier the US said the Russian incursion into Turkish air space lasted just seconds. Nato ambassadors apparently believe Turkey could have shown more restraint. This from Reuters.

Diplomats present at the meeting told Reuters that while none of the 28 Nato envoys defended Russia’s actions, many expressed concern that Turkey did not escort the Russian warplane out of its airspace. “There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents,” said one diplomat who declined to be named.

I think it was a rash decision to shoot it down also. But nations do not like to see warplanes in their airspace. Turkey may just not be afraid of Russia and think that Putin has few options to respond. That could turn out to be a miscalculation.

If they don´t like seeing foreign warplanes in their airspace maybe they should stop tootsie-footing with terrorists running around this way and that over their borders. I mean; all this hypocritic shitpile from Washington to Ankara via headchopping medieval fruitcakes in Saudi Arabia is supposed to be fighting terrorism right?

I think the problem is that Turkey is in this for Turkey, America is in it for America. The Peshmerga are fighting for Kurdistan, the Russians and SAA are fighting for the Syrian state, DAESH is fighting for the Caliphate, Nusra is fighting for Al-Queada, the U.S. and moderate rebels are fighting for a new Syrian state. The Gulf states, Iran, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and others are fighting a proxy war between Shia and Suni factions. It's a mess.

[Lauda]

Even NATO nutbags are forced to admit that Turkey acted crazy

I don't think so. I am getting the impression that all the major NATO warmongers are solidly behind the scumbag Erdogan. A few minutes ago, Obama defended the Turkish dictator. And I heard Jens Stoltenberg (Secretary General of NATO) defending the Turkish actions. Anyway, I don't care. Russia should nuke Istanbul and Ankara. Let's see how many of these NATO nuts will come to the rescue of the Turks.

Correct. Even if there was a war between Turkey and Russia, guess who'd be having turkey for dinner long before Christmas. Turkey can not stand against Russia at all. If the others join in, they risk China and others from Asia joining in (which would be very bad for everyone, everywhere). Let's see how this one plays out.

[galdur]

I wonder how people think 15-20,000 ISIS terrorists arrived in Syria from Europe.  Yeah I know; it´s a real headscratcher. 

[twn]

wow too much bullshit on this topic.
1-i hate erdogan but today he is right maybe the first time
2- nato will support of couse Turkey. Do you know what is ally meaning? Thats why Obama and nato will talk on the side for Turkey
3- 2 russian aircraft pass inside turkish border and in 5 minutes 10 times warned by turkish army.but they didnt reply. Maybe they dont know english lol. Also turkey gave the radar pictures to media but nothing comes from russian side.
4- after that turkish air forces attack but they just drop one russian warplane.
5- not even Russia will attack Turkey. Its not happening like that. Do you know how much does it cost to Russia if they try that? As economical they cant pay that.
6- of course Putin will talk with treats but nothing will be happen
7- in a week everything will turn back normal.
8- summer 2016 antalya will be fullof russians again
Cheers

[HabBear]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

That's one perspective. The other perspective is that the invasion of Russian jets into Turkey's territory is an act of war by terrorist supporter turkey (Russia's role in Crimea and in jetliner bombings is equal to terrorism).

The bigger problem is that this kind of posturing and follow through lead to wars.  And moments after the world was coming together over Paris and IS, we are now potentially divided again. Fuck all! Fuck all of us!

[mohsin qureshi]

That's not good. This is very bad for already disturbed situation of the world. The peace is very necessary between the countries to fight against terrerism. Enemy must be happy because this incident now draw a clear line between two states. Russia is against and strongly condemned this incident while turkey its interference in its sovereignty. May God protect us all.

[galdur]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

That's one perspective. The other perspective is that the invasion of Russian jets into Turkey's territory is an act of war by terrorist supporter turkey (Russia's role in Crimea and in jetliner bombings is equal to terrorism).

Since the Americans are forced to admit that this incursion only lasted a few seconds it most likely didn´t take place at all to begin with and certainly doesn´t count as any invasion or lasting five or ten minutes as some idiots here are claiming.

[HabBear]

act of war by terrorist supporter turkey

lets see if obama cameron and hollande will start ww3 to protect them

That's one perspective. The other perspective is that the invasion of Russian jets into Turkey's territory is an act of war by terrorist supporter turkey (Russia's role in Crimea and in jetliner bombings is equal to terrorism).

Since the Americans are forced to admit that this incursion only lasted a few seconds it most likely didn´t take place at all to begin with and certainly doesn´t count as any invasion or lasting five or ten minutes as some idiots here are claiming.

You can call who you think are "idiots" out directly...quoting my post and then saying "some idiots" is so passive aggressive. Don't be shy, man, I can take your direct comments! Just friendly debate, no?

So are you saying that because the American's are forced to admit that this only lasted a short time that it must not have happened? What's your logic in that take?

I agree with you on the relevance of how far it crossed the "invasion" line. My point was that Saddam's pov was completely one sided,  so I offered the same level of one sided pov to counter.  The reality is certainly somewhere in the middle. I've looked at the radar reports and it's not like Russia flew through the country, they flew over a very narrow pan handle, could have been an easy mistake or an easy "corner to cut" either way.

The bottom line here is that if Turkey is pissed over a legit infraction by Russia, Russia needs to acknowledge it. By not acknowledging it Turkey opens itself open to further ignorance from Russia. Do they deserve that? No. Don't get me wrong, it's not like Turkey hasn't done stupid shit - every country has (except maybe the Swiss and Canada)! But all big powers of the world need to be stood up to when they violate the smaller countries right to have a territory...that goes for Russia, it goes for America, it goes for Saudi Arabia.

[bryant.coleman]

5- not even Russia will attack Turkey. Its not happening like that. Do you know how much does it cost to Russia if they try that? As economical they cant pay that.

Do you really think that the Russians are scared of the Turkish mongrels? The Russians have wiped the floor with the Chinese during the border war of 1969. The Turks will be evaporated in a matter of few days.

8- summer 2016 antalya will be fullof russians again
Cheers

Wishful thinking. Russia is going to arm the PKK to the tooth and nail. Not a single foreigner is going to visit Turkey in 2016, let alone the Russians.

[galdur]

I´m saying that the Americans know that the Turkish story is bullshit in fact so much bullshit that even they´re unable to back it up but since it´s supposed to be an ally they state for appearances sake that it lasted a few seconds.

[Starin]

If the turks ask NATO for help, I hope the French throw this back at their fucking faces:

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/11/18/video-turkish-fans-jeer-chant-allahu-akbar-during-moment-of-silence-for-paris-victims/

The turks are animals. They were when they committed genocide against the Armenians and they still are today. Fuck the turks. If you want to see what subhuman animals the turks are read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Still denied by the modern turks to this day. It's no surprise that they'd vote for braindead islamofascists like erdogan over and over. That's who they are.

Maybe today's the day to pay the turks what history owes them.

Sad to see racist idiots lives in year 2015. Wake up the fuck up you little prick, they are fucking washing your brain with all the race, religion bullshit.

5- not even Russia will attack Turkey. Its not happening like that. Do you know how much does it cost to Russia if they try that? As economical they cant pay that.

Do you really think that the Russians are scared of the Turkish mongrels? The Russians have wiped the floor with the Chinese during the border war of 1969. The Turks will be evaporated in a matter of few days.

8- summer 2016 antalya will be fullof russians again
Cheers

Wishful thinking. Russia is going to arm the PKK to the tooth and nail. Not a single foreigner is going to visit Turkey in 2016, let alone the Russians.

You have no idea what a war is. A war has too many aspects, not just the military force. Economics, world politics are strongly involved. Anyway, I'm not gonna take my time to explain how the politics work to idiot racists like you. Someday there will be no nations, no races. You guys are just outdated idiots.

5- not even Russia will attack Turkey. Its not happening like that. Do you know how much does it cost to Russia if they try that? As economical they cant pay that.

Do you really think that the Russians are scared of the Turkish mongrels? The Russians have wiped the floor with the Chinese during the border war of 1969. The Turks will be evaporated in a matter of few days.

8- summer 2016 antalya will be fullof russians again
Cheers

Wishful thinking. Russia is going to arm the PKK to the tooth and nail. Not a single foreigner is going to visit Turkey in 2016, let alone the Russians.

Russia has been arming PKK since the early 80s. Please go to the toilet now and flush out the thing located in your head that looks like a brain.

[HabBear]

I´m saying that the Americans know that the Turkish story is bullshit in fact so much bullshit that even they´re unable to back it up but since it´s supposed to be an ally they state for appearances sake that it lasted a few seconds.

I don't think America is vouching for Turkey's claims, but they're acknowledging that Turkey is upset and enlisting NATO to get involved and keep the peace.

As much as everyone here who lives outside the US thinks, the US really doesn't want perpetual war...the US really does want peace.

[galdur]

I´m saying that the Americans know that the Turkish story is bullshit in fact so much bullshit that even they´re unable to back it up but since it´s supposed to be an ally they state for appearances sake that it lasted a few seconds.

I don't think America is vouching for Turkey's claims, but they're acknowledging that Turkey is upset and enlisting NATO to get involved and keep the peace.

As much as everyone here who lives outside the US thinks, the US really doesn't want perpetual war...the US really does want peace.

Doesn´t want perpetual war? Fourteen years they declared a war against terrorism that they said would last decades even a century and couldn´t hide their glee over those rosy prospects for the war industry. And a few weeks ago Obama´s ISIS "czar" stated that defeating ISIS could take a generation. Peace is the absolutely last thing that these warmongers are interested in.

[HabBear]

I´m saying that the Americans know that the Turkish story is bullshit in fact so much bullshit that even they´re unable to back it up but since it´s supposed to be an ally they state for appearances sake that it lasted a few seconds.

I don't think America is vouching for Turkey's claims, but they're acknowledging that Turkey is upset and enlisting NATO to get involved and keep the peace.

As much as everyone here who lives outside the US thinks, the US really doesn't want perpetual war...the US really does want peace.

Doesn´t want perpetual war? Fourteen years they declared a war against terrorism that they said would last decades even a century and couldn´t hide their glee over those rosy prospects for the war industry. And a few weeks ago Obama´s ISIS "czar" stated that defeating ISIS could take a generation.

Hey man, I prefaced my comment by implying you all wouldn't believe it. It is in fact true though, America doesn't want to take a generation to fight ISIS or any terrorists.  

What America does want is to eliminate the act of terrorism. What happened in Paris by ISIS should never happened. What happens in Africa by Boko Hiram should never happen. We are a world of adults, when children have violent temper tantrums (that result in killing innocent people) those children need to be disciplined.

America has 100% tolerance for civil disobedience (read about the Occupy movement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement). And for those that don't know, civil disobedience is showing your frustration for anything in a civil peaceful way.

America has 0% tolerance for violent disobedience.  

Almost all problems can be solved peacefully (recognizing that some problems just can never be solved.) No problems are solved violently. Violence breeds violence. Terrorism breeds terrorism. And on it goes until we kill each other or learn to live with our differences.

[bryant.coleman]

Sad to see racist idiots lives in year 2015. Wake up the fuck up you little prick, they are fucking washing your brain with all the race, religion bullshit.

You have no idea what a war is. A war has too many aspects, not just the military force. Economics, world politics are strongly involved. Anyway, I'm not gonna take my time to explain how the politics work to idiot racists like you. Someday there will be no nations, no races. You guys are just outdated idiots.

OK... I get it. Anyone who disagree with you is an idiot and a racist. How many times do you scream "racist" in a day? I have noticed that you have done it two times in a single post against two different users. I would admit that it is an intelligent method to run away from the arguments, when you don't have anything to reply.

[galdur]

I´m saying that the Americans know that the Turkish story is bullshit in fact so much bullshit that even they´re unable to back it up but since it´s supposed to be an ally they state for appearances sake that it lasted a few seconds.

I don't think America is vouching for Turkey's claims, but they're acknowledging that Turkey is upset and enlisting NATO to get involved and keep the peace.

As much as everyone here who lives outside the US thinks, the US really doesn't want perpetual war...the US really does want peace.

Doesn´t want perpetual war? Fourteen years they declared a war against terrorism that they said would last decades even a century and couldn´t hide their glee over those rosy prospects for the war industry. And a few weeks ago Obama´s ISIS "czar" stated that defeating ISIS could take a generation.

Hey man, I prefaced my comment by implying you all wouldn't believe it. It is in fact true though, America doesn't want to take a generation to fight ISIS or any terrorists.  

What America does want is to eliminate the act of terrorism. What happened in Paris by ISIS should never happened. What happens in Africa by Boko Hiram should never happen. We are a world of adults, when children have violent temper tantrums (that result in killing innocent people) those children need to be disciplined.

America has 100% tolerance for civil disobedience (read about the Occupy movement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement). And for those that don't know, civil disobedience is showing your frustration for anything in a civil peaceful way.

America has 0% tolerance for violent disobedience.  

Almost all problems can be solved peacefully (recognizing that some problems just can never be solved.) No problems are solved violently. Violence breeds violence. Terrorism breeds terrorism. And on it goes until we kill each other or learn to live with our differences.

Well, I don´t think acting like homicidal maniacs and running roughshod over country after country for freakin decades killing and maiming and displacing millions is indicative of any special peacefulness. Maybe I should post the list from say 1953.

[HabBear]

Well, I don´t think acting like homicidal maniacs and running roughshod over country after country for freakin decades killing and maiming and displacing millions is indicative of any special peacefulness. Maybe I should post the list from say 1953.

Well, I wouldn't tag America to the description you just provided. But I completely respect your opinion and can understand (at most) that the view of the world from your eyes is different from the view from mine. (At least I'd love to see your list, maybe PM me.)

Aside from this specific talk, isn't the hardest thing about country politics is that the stories of the motivation or rationale for one decision or another, or one agreement that leads to another, can go on for decades? Look at Palestine and Israel. If you look at the last 60 days of action you may think "oh this one side is completely out of line!" But if you look at the last 60 years of action you could think "this other side started it all!"

(Israel and Palestine were just an example)

But once decades go by you have a new generation that has inherited a problem that for some reason is so serious it can't be forgotten by the new generation.

Maybe we all need just have a reset. Forget what happened before...let's start tomorrow trying to work with each other rather than against each other. What a different world that could be. Nice talking to you...

[Vika NSFW]

3- 2 russian aircraft pass inside turkish border and in 5 minutes 10 times warned by turkish army.but they didnt reply. Maybe they dont know english lol. Also turkey gave the radar pictures to media but nothing comes from russian side.

Have You listen the Turkish report??
They claim 17 seconds "inside Turkish territory", how they could warning for 5 minutes the Russian bomber and how fast they fly?
Flycontrol not registered interception from Turkish Aircrafts.
And US forces are still watching on radar registrations, with NO COMMENT.

[galdur]

Well, I don´t think acting like homicidal maniacs and running roughshod over country after country for freakin decades killing and maiming and displacing millions is indicative of any special peacefulness. Maybe I should post the list from say 1953.

Well, I wouldn't tag America to the description you just provided. But I completely respect your opinion and can understand (at most) that the view of the world from your eyes is different from the view from mine. (At least I'd love to see your list, maybe PM me.)

Aside from this specific talk, isn't the hardest thing about country politics is that the stories of the motivation or rationale for one decision or another, or one agreement that leads to another, can go on for decades? Look at Palestine and Israel. If you look at the last 60 days of action you may think "oh this one side is completely out of line!" But if you look at the last 60 years of action you could think "this other side started it all!"

(Israel and Palestine were just an example)

But once decades go by you have a new generation that has inherited a problem that for some reason is so serious it can't be forgotten by the new generation.

Maybe we all need just have a reset. Forget what happened before...let's start tomorrow trying to work with each other rather than against each other. What a different world that could be. Nice talking to you...

All right. It may be that when you talk about America and its supposed urge for world peace you mean more the population than the maniacs in charge. And if so I could probably agree with that. Yet; someone has to vote those people into power, assuming that the elections can be taken seriously.

[twn]

3- 2 russian aircraft pass inside turkish border and in 5 minutes 10 times warned by turkish army.but they didnt reply. Maybe they dont know english lol. Also turkey gave the radar pictures to media but nothing comes from russian side.

Have You listen the Turkish report??
They claim 17 seconds "inside Turkish territory", how they could warning for 5 minutes the Russian bomber and how fast they fly?
Flycontrol not registered interception from Turkish Aircrafts.
And US forces are still watching on radar registrations, with NO COMMENT.

First warn was 30miles away from border. 2 russian aircraft was coming tru the border. So they wait 5 minutes before attack.they attack after russian aircrafts enters the border, btw on turkish media also radio calls published. Also usa confirm the radio calls even usa radars listen that radio talk during that happening.No reply comes from russian aircrafts. On the border turkish jets all the time patrolling btw thats why they went there so quick.anyway diyarbakir airbase is so close to border. And that airbase full with aircrafts cause of syria.
Just for info im not supporting any act but turkey warns russia more than couple times about violations even last week russian embassy informed about these situation but they dont care. So instead of 2 they just attack on 1 aircraft as a warning.

[catch.me.if.you.can]

The Turkey people are uncivilized. Watch the movie "Midnight Express (1978)".

[Vika NSFW]

#First warn was 30miles away from border.

 2 russian aircraft was coming tru the border. So they wait 5 minutes before attack.they attack after russian aircrafts enters the border, btw on turkish media also radio calls published. Also usa confirm the radio calls even usa radars listen that radio talk during that happening.No reply comes from russian aircrafts. On the border turkish jets all the time patrolling btw thats why they went there so quick.anyway diyarbakir airbase is so close to border. And that airbase full with aircrafts cause of syria.
Just for info im not supporting any act but turkey warns russia more than couple times about violations even last week russian embassy informed about these situation but they dont care. So instead of 2 they just attack on 1 aircraft as a warning.

8:25 p.m.

Turkey says that two planes violated Turkish airspace before it shot down one of them, which crashed in Syrian territory.

In a letter to the U.N. Security Council and Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, it said the jet it shot down disregarded 10 warnings to change course.

The letter from Turkey's U.N. Ambassador Halit Cevik said "two SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown," approached Turkish airspace in the Yayladagi-Hatay region.

The letter, obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press, said both planes, at an altitude of 19,000 feet, disregarded warnings and violated Turkish airspace "to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds" just after 9:24 a.m.

"Following the violation, plane one left Turkish national airspace," the letter said. "Plane two was fired at while in Turkish national airspace by Turkish F-16s performing air combat patrolling in that area in accordance with the rules of engagement."

It said the second plane crashed on the Syrian side of the border.

---

This is called "no interception operations", no operations for visual contact.
And radar control show, that turkish aircraft shot Russian aircraft over Syrian territory.

What the fucking idea is "warning" Russian bombers on 50 km of distance?
There is a direct telephone line with Moscow build for such problems, why they give no calls, and how there was people with zoom cameras and internet connection?

[Balthazar]

1-i hate erdogan but today he is right maybe the first time

Yeah, right... Violation of sirian border and attack against your own (former) partner is a wise way of thinking, indeed. Especially when he has over $100 billion of investments in the joint projects of your country, and able to withdraw these funds.

2- nato will support of couse Turkey. Do you know what is ally meaning? Thats why Obama and nato will talk on the side for Turkey

NATO is just a mutual defence agreement. It obliges other members to provide military support in case if you're a victim of aggression. Nobody is obliged to do anything if you've committed an unprovoked act of aggression against the 3rd party. Nobody will come to save Erdogan's ass, he's alone this time.

3- 2 russian aircraft pass inside turkish border and in 5 minutes 10 times warned by turkish army.but they didnt reply. Maybe they dont know english lol. Also turkey gave the radar pictures to media but nothing comes from russian side.

4- after that turkish air forces attack but they just drop one russian warplane.

Could you give any evidence for this bullshit, please? Even NATO Secretary General stated that Turkish side didn't provide anything.

5- not even Russia will attack Turkey. Its not happening like that. Do you know how much does it cost to Russia if they try that? As economical they cant pay that.

That's not neccessary, they will simply take their money back and freeze all participation in the joint projects, including the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant. Then, after putting food embargo and buying some popcorn, they will sit down and enjoy watching your economic collapse. Congratulations are going to Erdogan & his ISIS friends.

6- of course Putin will talk with treats but nothing will be happen
7- in a week everything will turn back normal.
8- summer 2016 antalya will be fullof russians again

In fact, "something" already happens right now, while we're talking on this forum. Turkish budget have had more than $7 billion per year from russian tourists. Government is going to ban flights to Turkey, two major tour operators already have stopped selling the tickets. And this is just a beginning.

Cheers

Same for you, please keep dreaming and continue watching TV. Your dear ISIS president Erdogan will provide you with sufficient amount of reliable news.

[zenitzz]

ISIS is supported by the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and Kuwait. They're extremely butt hurt that the Russians are destroying their terrorists that they're using to try to achieve their political goals.

[Vika NSFW]

http://lifenews.ru/news/171620

Fly radar

red - su-24
green - F16

[Starin]

Sad to see racist idiots lives in year 2015. Wake up the fuck up you little prick, they are fucking washing your brain with all the race, religion bullshit.

You have no idea what a war is. A war has too many aspects, not just the military force. Economics, world politics are strongly involved. Anyway, I'm not gonna take my time to explain how the politics work to idiot racists like you. Someday there will be no nations, no races. You guys are just outdated idiots.

OK... I get it. Anyone who disagree with you is an idiot and a racist. How many times do you scream "racist" in a day? I have noticed that you have done it two times in a single post against two different users. I would admit that it is an intelligent method to run away from the arguments, when you don't have anything to reply.

You basically call a group of people animals because of their "race", "nationality". You are brainwashed as rest of the world and you have no idea what is really going on in Middle East. We are at the edge of finding new life forms in space and you still argue about races, religions. So intelligent!

Oh, Location: Thule
Do you even know what that means?

[galdur]

Well, since Turkey Day is just around the corner and Turkey just laid an egg it´s probably worth mentioning that a turkey is about as dumb as a bird can be. Terms such as turkey shoot and turkey trap exist for a very good reason.

[Balthazar]

[Ankara]

I have so much fun when I read this thread, especially for the comments from people who doesn't even know where Middle East is. Thanks for the laugh guys.

[Balthazar]

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/669204928984915968/photo/1

And still no real evidence, only empty claims.

[galdur]

I wonder how people, that hardly know where the Middle East is on the globe, figure 15-20,000 ISIS terrorists got from Europe to the sands of Iraq and Syria. Hint: no, there are no flights from Frankfurt, Paris and London to ISISland there in the desert. 

[connexus]

Whether the Russian fighter violated Turkish airspace remains to be seen. But Turkey has not been seriously interested in taking on the ISIS. Instead, it has been the conduit through which ISIS's oil is sold into the world market.

The Russian bombing campaign is propping up Assad government while seriously disrupting ISIS oil trade. It is in Turkey's interest to discourage the Russians. Turkey's overriding concern is the rise of the Kurds. Its recent air raids against ISIS are overwhelmingly aimed at the Kurds.

[frank0929]

It's not about Russia, Turkey have right to shoot any flying machine inside their borders. If it was another countries plane they still shoot it anyway. They didn't even know it was a Russian plane when they shot it.

[galdur]

Erdogan himself after Syria shot down a Turkish warplane violating Syrian airspace in 2012

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

What short and/or selective memories people have....

[frank0929]

Erdogan is well known for his exact opposite discourse. He do the same thing all the time. He's the worst hypocrite I've ever seen.

[pungopete468]

It's not about Russia, Turkey have right to shoot any flying machine inside their borders.

Not when that plane is exiting Turkish airspace and flying non-aggressively. They knew there was no threat, and it's coming out now that the plane was likely fired upon after leaving Turkish airspace. This is coming from US intel after reviewing the heat signature of the missile launch, the plane was fired upon after having already left Turkish airspace... Also, Turkey is claiming the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. That equates to an air speed of 243 mph. Given the path claimed by the Turkish government, the plane would have been in Turkish airspace for roughly 5 seconds.

If it was another countries plane they still shoot it anyway. They didn't even know it was a Russian plane when they shot it.

You're joking right? Just because they "claim" not to know doesn't mean they don't actually know. Of course they do! The on-board radar systems identify planes, SAM sites, and other radar signals based on its waveform and emission characteristics... Both the tracking and spotting radar systems of an attacking plane will identify and compare the radar emissions from the target plane against a database of known waveforms, and it even displays the designation of the aircraft on the radar screen...

This was believed to be an infrared tracking missile, they call them "mad dogs" when fired without a radar lock, and will target any target within range having the highest heat signature. They fire these to avoid warning the target with a "missile lock". The pilots don't get all the warning lights and buzzers going off about that incoming missile when fired this way...

You believe they didn't know who they were firing on? Please... They knew exactly whose flag they were flying under, where they launched from, where they flew their mission, and what type of aircraft it was. You think they don't track these planes as they fly in the sky? Give me a break...

[galdur]

One of the Pilots of Downed Su-24 Saved by Syrian Army - Envoy


Sputnik International  7:56 am

One of the two pilots from the Russian Su-24 which was downed by two Turkish F-16s Tuesday morning has been rescued by the Syrian Army, according to Russia's envoy to France, as cited by Reuters.

[Balthazar]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-impact-idUSKBN0TE04M20151125

So, Erdogan lied just as usual.

[galdur]

That´s an understatement...

German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel called Turkish actions unpredictable.

“This incident shows for the first time that we are to dealing with an actor who is unpredictable according to statements from various parts of the region – that is not Russia, that is Turkey,” Gabriel said, as cited by DPA news agency. He added that Turkey was playing “a complicated role” in the Syrian conflict.

https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

[Balthazar]

https://www.rt.com/news/323377-russian-pilot-saved-syria/

One of pilots is alive, he managed to escape from Erdogan's "moderate" barbarians. According to reports, he has been picked up by the Syrian Army and should be going back to the Russian Air Force base.

Bad sign for Er-dog-an, since dogs like him usually prefer to don't leave any living witnesses.

[catch.me.if.you.can]

Im very happy that i don't know where Middle East (barbarians) is. Islam = Barbaric religion.

[frank0929]

-snip-

They shot other planes without knowing their nationality before. Either you don't watch news or you don't know about Turkey. I live in Turkey and watch these news way closer than you.

[Starin]

Im very happy that i don't know where Middle East (barbarians) is. Islam = Barbaric religion.

Ignorance is bliss. Let me guess, you are probably living in of the western countries that have colonized African and Middle Eastern countries for centuries and still living off their backs. The biggest terrorist are imperial countries, their governments and their global corporations. You might be innocent, but you guys are living in prosperity because for every single untroubled moment you have, someone else pays for it with their lives in Africa or Middle East.

[frank0929]

Im very happy that i don't know where Middle East (barbarians) is. Islam = Barbaric religion.

Ignorance is bliss. Let me guess, you are probably living in of the western countries that have colonized African and Middle Eastern countries for centuries and still living off their backs. The biggest terrorist are imperial countries, their governments and their global corporations. You might be innocent, but you guys are living in prosperity because for every single untroubled moment you have, someone else pays for it with their lives in Africa or Middle East.

Well said.
These people think everybody have religion though. Anyway, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

[Lauda]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-impact-idUSKBN0TE04M20151125

So, Erdogan lied just as usual.

This is an act of aggression. In no way was that hit deserved (remember, a pilot has lost his life). Erdogan seems to be angry that his dirty schemes with ISIS are being interrupted by the, very effective, Russian intervention. People have started arguing about this online as usually. Most have very troubling stances which show just how deluded they have become (be it either that Russia deserves it; Putin is bad for Russia; etc.). I've even seen someone claiming that Russia and Turkey have equal military strength. Idiocy at its best.

[pungopete468]

-snip-

They shot other planes without knowing their nationality before. Either you don't watch news or you don't know about Turkey. I live in Turkey and watch these news way closer than you.

http://gizmodo.com/how-fighter-jets-lock-on-and-how-the-targets-know-1644871272

Read that link and then tell me they don't know what they're shooting at...

It's easy to make a claim when the people have no knowledge about the subject of the claim. They've lied to you...

[Vika NSFW]

тeплoвoй cлeд, ocтaвлeнный Cy-24, зaфикcиpoвaнный aмepикaнcкими cpeдcтвaми нaблюдeния.

Who have the picture of heat trace of bomber, registered by USA satellites?

This zone is usual of all day landing on Russian airport in Syria. So, that is a crime and not "auto defence".

[catch.me.if.you.can]

Im very happy that i don't know where Middle East (barbarians) is. Islam = Barbaric religion.

Ignorance is bliss. Let me guess, you are probably living in of the western countries that have colonized African and Middle Eastern countries for centuries and still living off their backs. The biggest terrorist are imperial countries, their governments and their global corporations. You might be innocent, but you guys are living in prosperity because for every single untroubled moment you have, someone else pays for it with their lives in Africa or Middle East.

Answer me please. Do you like this picture from Saudi Arabia? What do you think about these people? Do you think are they civilized? If these people are not animals then what are they?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede

[Balthazar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbxdAbUfNg

Turkish Nazi is posing as turkmen militia leader.











Alparslan, thermobaric weapons are on the way.

[pungopete468]

Oh shit. That's crazy...

[Vika NSFW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbxdAbUfNg

Turkish Nazi is posing as

What is Your problem whit National Sozialism?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1250589.0

الحزب السوري القومي الاجتماعي




www.ssnp.net
www.esaadah.com
www.alqawmi.info

Russian Airforce collaborate with them in offering bombing on request, but in Russian Federation such party will be illegal.

[Balthazar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbxdAbUfNg

Turkish Nazi is posing as

What is Your problem whit National Sozialism?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1250589.0

الحزب السوري القومي الاجتماعي




www.ssnp.net
www.esaadah.com
www.alqawmi.info

Russian Airforce collaborate with them in offering bombing on request, but in Russian Federation such party will be illegal.

Just like in any other country, there are a lot of neofascist and neonazi movements in Turkey. Some of these are fighting against islamist terrorists.

This barbarian is a member of  Grey Wolves. They're nothing but typical "moderate extremists", who're terrorising syrian population since 2011.

[Vika NSFW]

a lot of neofascist and neonazi

Syrian National Socialists are with any "neo" in their name and in hystory of movement.
A regular christian based party.

[Balthazar]

This barbarian is a member of  Grey Wolves. They're nothing but typical "moderate extremists", who're terrorising syrian population since 2011.

Some of them joined wahhabi heretics in Chechnya, by the way.

[Vika NSFW]

joined wahhabi heretics

wahhabi are OK people, salafi are not wahhabi
mr. Putin meet some wahhabi leaders



Better the living under wahhabi as the living under some communists.

[jasonjm]

And people are surprised why?

Many people from Turkey in my other thread have said publicly that at least 50 percent of turkey supports Isis.

Just watch the soccer game vs Greece which called for 1 min silence for Paris victims.

Turkey should not be part of nato and should not be part of the eu.

[Vika NSFW]

called for 1 min silence for Paris victims.

Check the reaction in Russia about the same thing, You will find many surprises, but is not about "Russian are isis like"

[jasonjm]

I don't understand your answer. Russia has never pretended to be a friend of the West.

Everyone always knows where they stand.

[Balthazar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBmL_5V9TSE

"No wonder they tried to kill the pilots. Dead people don't talk." (C)

[iCEBREAKER]

Im very happy that i don't know where Middle East (barbarians) is. Islam = Barbaric religion.

Ignorance is bliss. Let me guess, you are probably living in of the western countries that have colonized African and Middle Eastern countries for centuries and still living off their backs. The biggest terrorist are imperial countries, their governments and their global corporations. You might be innocent, but you guys are living in prosperity because for every single untroubled moment you have, someone else pays for it with their lives in Africa or Middle East.

What nonsense; please spare the rest of us your self-loathing white guilt trip.

The truth is Africa and the ME have always been shitty places full of shitty cultures.

Exhibit A:




Western countries gave those benighted savages roads/trains/factories (industrial revolution), modern agriculture (green revolution), modern medicine (population explosion), and TV/phones/internet (information revolution).

"OK, well besides all that, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
"NOTHING!!!"

 

[jasonjm]

Do you really really hate the Romans?

[iCEBREAKER]

Do you really really hate the Romans?

I hate people who whine about enjoying civilization under Pax Romana while pointedly failing to mention how nasty, brutal, and short life was previously.

I hate people who complain that Pax Romana interrupted some poor shity backwards tribes' hitherto eternal warfare, illiteracy, and stagnation.

As if we were all just happy little savages before, singing and dancing and fucking our lives away in blissful vibrant splendor, before the terrible burden of enlightenment was forced upon us.

To learn more, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism%27s_rejection_of_the_primitive.

[Ankara]

And people are surprised why?

Many people from Turkey in my other thread have said publicly that at least 50 percent of turkey supports Isis.

Just watch the soccer game vs Greece which called for 1 min silence for Paris victims.

Turkey should not be part of nato and should not be part of the eu.

%50 support ISIS and %50 is civilized just like Europeans. Turkey has its own dynamics. I'm sure %50 support this plane shooting and %50 against it.

[J. J. Phillips]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBmL_5V9TSE

"No wonder they tried to kill the pilots. Dead people don't talk." (C)

Interesting. Worth watching if anyone skipped it.

Maybe we're finally about to see the turks get what's been so late in coming.

You hear that ankara? Is that the cries of the 1.5 million souls you massacred and deny? No. It's the sound of your Hiroshima style screams as your flesh burns. The lucky die. The unlucky? You earned it.

And istanbul? was constantinople? no. that mushroom cloud, was istanbul, now it's a mushroom cloud, not istanbul, why did istanbul get the works? that's nobody's fault but the turks.

ISTANBUL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sl4XCVmoXg

Time for payback for centuries of Ottoman slavery in Eastern Europe too. Nuke those fucking turks.

[Ankara]

I hate any nationalists but you come to me like a nation war. lol you can gtfoh.

[Balthazar]

Piece of kryptonite for our dear friends

14:43 GMT
Russian MPs submit bill on holding to account those denying Armenian genocide

The opposition Just Russia party has submitted a bill to parliament on holding to account anyone who denies that the 1915 killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turkish forces was a “genocide,” Reuters reported. “We have just submitted a bill on responsibility for failure to acknowledge the fact of a genocide of Armenians by Turkey,” the party’s leader, Sergey Mironov said on his Twitter account. The statement came a day after the Turkish Air Force shot down a Russian jet over Syria.

[pungopete468]

A nuclear strike would be completely wrong. There's no way Russia will nuke Turkey for this, not going to happen.

Nuclear war is genocide, and it's never going to be justified.

[J. J. Phillips]

A nuclear strike would be completely wrong. There's no way Russia will nuke Turkey for this, not going to happen.

Nuclear war is genocide, and it's never going to be justified.

Eh, a nuke or two would likely kill far fewer turks than the 1.5 million Armenians the turks killed. The turks might claim "genocide" after losing a couple of cities and 200,000 or so people, but the world will laugh at the irony.

Probably won't happen though. But it's fun to imagine.

The strategy of twisting their genocidal arms with their denied history is a fun one too.

To paraphrase Team America:

I like Putin. Putin has balls. I like balls.

[iCEBREAKER]

A nuclear strike would be completely wrong. There's no way Russia will nuke Turkey for this, not going to happen.

Nuclear war is genocide, and it's never going to be justified.

That would be bad for business.  Russia sells gas to the Turks.   

Putin should (symbollically) castrate Allah and Muhammand on live TV.  Make it clear to the superstitious savages Russia has chopped off their God's and His Prophet's cocks and balls once and for all.

All that is required is to nuke Medina, Mecca, and Riyadh.  The dirtier, the better.  Salt the earth of their Muslim-only Holy Cities with thorium.  Plutonium be upon Him!   

[galdur]

The Russians are too shrewd to rush into some sort of physical retaliation. It´ll be a useful ace up their sleeve, this whole Middle East mess has a long way to go and then there´s the Ukrainian basket case. Good to have some leverage.

It´s always nice when the opposing side shoots itself in the foot. Sometimes when you´re lucky they may even  shoot themselves in their dumb heads.

[pungopete468]

A nuclear strike would be completely wrong. There's no way Russia will nuke Turkey for this, not going to happen.

Nuclear war is genocide, and it's never going to be justified.

Eh, a nuke or two would likely kill far fewer turks than the 1.5 million Armenians the turks killed. The turks might claim "genocide" after losing a couple of cities and 200,000 or so people, but the world will laugh at the irony.

Probably won't happen though. But it's fun to imagine.

The strategy of twisting their genocidal arms with their denied history is a fun one too.

To paraphrase Team America:

I like Putin. Putin has balls. I like balls.

The difference is this case is the opportunity to survive, the Armenians didn't deserve to be massacred, but individually they had options which wouldn't be available in a nuclear strike... A nuclear attack is like genocide on steroids, served with a side of torture for dessert...

Nukes target civilian populations, civilian populations are targeted to destroy their ability to sustain a war effort. For what rational purpose would Russia feel compelled to take that course of action against a country like Turkey? It's simply unwarranted...

[J. J. Phillips]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSlwrlHLlnE&feature=youtu.be

Well... It's not confirmed yet. But it seems that cluster munitions are being used, while we're talking about that. If that's right then the surroundings of crash site were burned into ashes.

Listening to these idiots yelling their Allahu Ackbar!s and Yo Allah!s it's amazing that any non-Muslim makes excuses for these subhumans.

[Balthazar]

I've deleted my message accidentally.

[Tzupy]

I'm surprised the FSB agents posting here didn't get the new memo... It's time to slow the bellicose rhetoric, because it's not helpful.
This time Turkey bullied Russia, who was used to be the bully... so unexpected...
Putin knows that escalating this can only damage Russian interests in Syria, he needs Turkey to let him keep Assad in power.
So he got the message from the turks - stop bombing the ethnic turks in Syria, or risk getting shot down if you cross even a tiny patch of Turkey.
The area where this incident happened is far from daesh territory, there isn't even al-nusra close to that area.

[Vika NSFW]

the West.

What is "the west"??
Alaska?

[J. J. Phillips]

The difference is this case is the opportunity to survive, the Armenians didn't deserve to be massacred, but individually they had options which wouldn't be available in a nuclear strike... A nuclear attack is like genocide on steroids, served with a side of torture for dessert...

Nukes target civilian populations, civilian populations are targeted to destroy their ability to sustain a war effort. For what rational purpose would Russia feel compelled to take that course of action against a country like Turkey? It's simply unwarranted...

No offense, but it's crazy to say the Armenians had options.

It probably would be irrational for Russia to nuke the turks. There are better ways to fuck the turkish animals and maybe earn some profit on the side. But I disagree that it's unwarranted. It's warranted. It's justifiable. And the turks totally deserve it.

But don't worry turks, I'm sure if Putin tries to nuke you your all-Ackbary Allah can stop a nuke. Fucking morons.

[Vika NSFW]

So he got the message from the turks - stop bombing the ethnic turks in Syria, or risk

Holy Barak Obama!
Check what happend today in that region of Syria.
Find youtube too.

Post here too, welcome

[galdur]

I'm surprised the FSB agents posting here didn't get the new memo... It's time to slow the bellicose rhetoric, because it's not helpful.
This time Turkey bullied Russia, who was used to be the bully... so unexpected...
Putin knows that escalating this can only damage Russian interests in Syria, he needs Turkey to let him keep Assad in power.
So he got the message from the turks - stop bombing the ethnic turks in Syria, or risk getting shot down if you cross even a tiny patch of Turkey.
The area where this incident happened is far from daesh territory, there isn't even al-nusra close to that area.

Hahaha, that´s like a mosquito threatening an elephant. And no, NATO/U.S. isn´t going to go nuclear over Turkey.

I guess the affair will quieten down, Turkey will rein in its terrorists and maybe stop ISIS trafficking across its border. Time will tell.

[Ankara]

You are aware that USA is the ally of Turkey, right?

[pungopete468]

No offense taken.

It's not that crazy to say the Armenians had options, I'm talking about individual choices which could lead to individual survival. Not the option of stopping the genocide occurring, but surviving it. That goes out the window with nuclear war...

I don't believe it's ever warranted to kill somebody when they have clean hands and aren't an immediate threat towards another person. My point is, how many children would be killed? Of all the artists, lovers, teachers, doctors, how many of them are genuinely good people? Collateral damage is never justified, it's a crime unto itself.

Those responsible are marked and stained, the rest are victims too...

[iCEBREAKER]

A nuclear strike would be completely wrong. There's no way Russia will nuke Turkey for this, not going to happen.

Nuclear war is genocide, and it's never going to be justified.

Eh, a nuke or two would likely kill far fewer turks than the 1.5 million Armenians the turks killed. The turks might claim "genocide" after losing a couple of cities and 200,000 or so people, but the world will laugh at the irony.

Probably won't happen though. But it's fun to imagine.

The strategy of twisting their genocidal arms with their denied history is a fun one too.

To paraphrase Team America:

I like Putin. Putin has balls. I like balls.

The difference is this case is the opportunity to survive, the Armenians didn't deserve to be massacred, but individually they had options which wouldn't be available in a nuclear strike... A nuclear attack is like genocide on steroids, served with a side of torture for dessert...

Nukes target civilian populations, civilian populations are targeted to destroy their ability to sustain a war effort. For what rational purpose would Russia feel compelled to take that course of action against a country like Turkey? It's simply unwarranted...

Japan was nuked twice.  Still plenty of Japanese people and culture, but no more Rapes of Nanking and Unit 731s.

There's nothing magical about non-conventional weapons.  Only the peaceniks fetishize them and indulge in 'zomg nuclear winter' junk science.

Russia isn't going to nuke Turkey, because of NATO.  Saudi Arabia is not a member, so the Holy Cities are fair game...noting would send the message that the Koran is a myth better than Tsar Bomba paying a visit to Mecca.  

[Balthazar]

The area where this incident happened is far from daesh territory, there isn't even al-nusra close to that area.

Nice try. I'm amused to see how quickly did you forget that syrian-turkish border is used by the various terrorist groups as a kind of magic portal. By the way, it's time to adjust your propaganda since Russian side never claimed that IS is the only target. On the contrary, they've claimed that any terrorist group is a valid target for their airstrikes. And the definition of terrorist group is quite simple, it's the refusal to collaborate.

I'm surprised the FSB agents posting here didn't get the new memo...

I suggest you to look under the bed with a flashlight before going to sleep. Just in case if FSB agent is hiding there.

By the way, specially for ignorant people I have to clarify that FSB has nothing to do with intelligence operations outside the country. Its permissions are strictly limited with interior affairs, so It's just an analogue to Federal Bureau of Investigation... It's simple as the piece of cake. Now you're free to continue posting your ignorant cliches.

[galdur]

You are aware that USA is the ally of Turkey, right?

That probably has its limits. I seriously doubt that the U.S. is going to start world war three over the disruptions of relations and business dealings of Turkey with some terrorists in the Middle East.

[pungopete468]

Japan was nuked, this is true. The face of war was changed forever as a result...

The problem lies in the purpose, and in the consequences...

Nuking Japan ended WW2, they could have hit Tokyo, but they didn't... They wanted to end the war, not destroy the enemy...

[Vika NSFW]

You are aware that USA is the ally of Turkey, right?

I'm happy about the situation, where is so clear, who still play the shit soap opera of "Democracy export".
USA have firmed the pact to evade clashes, and seems they declared to hear about shooting the bomber and not stop it.
ISIS have no aviation.
This is called - a crime action of Turkey and USA against Russian Federation.

This will be forgiven newer.

[galdur]

Turkey, a NATO country,  has not sealed its border with Syria. Most of the 15-20,000 wannabe terrorists that have gone from Europe to join ISIS in Iraq/Syria have gone through Turkey. There have been staging points in Turkey, weapons depots and training. Even the western mainstream media admits this, the politicians avoid mentioning it of course.

[galdur]

In the wake of the murderous attacks in Paris, we can expect western heads of state to do what they always do in such circumstances: declare total and unremitting war on those who brought it about. They don’t actually mean it. They’ve had the means to uproot and destroy Islamic State within their hands for over a year now. They’ve simply refused to make use of it. In fact, as the world watched leaders making statements of implacable resolve at the G20 summit in Antalaya, these same leaders are hobnobbing with Turkey’s president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, a man whose tacit political, economic, and even military support contributed to Isis’s ability to perpetrate the atrocities in Paris, not to mention an endless stream of atrocities inside the Middle East. ....

Turkey could cut off Islamic State’s supply lines. So why doesn’t it?

David Graeber

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/18/turkey-cut-islamic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis

[Vika NSFW]

There have been staging points in Turkey,

How do You permit to call "Democracy export" to Syria as terrorism?
Are You a Asad supporter?
Alhamdulillah!
I Find You, dirty Asad supporter, bloody friend of Dictator Putin.
Let Obama play the Jew plan to kill muslims one with other.

[faince222]

What will happen? I don't think that there will be an occasion for the next world war. Putin has told that there will not be a war

[galdur]

Turkey has spent years allowing jihadist groups to flourish - so beware its real reasons for shooting down a Russian plane

Turkey has no interest in the peaceful settlement to the conflict in Syria that world powers are negotiating. As Erdogan gets desperate, he will attempt to bring focus back to Assad

Ranj Alaaldin @RanjAlaaldin 11 hours  ago

Turkey is getting desperate. Under President Recep Tayip Erdogan and his party, the Justice and Development Party (AKP), its policies toward the conflict in Syria over the past four years have been misguided and costly. When conflict broke out in 2011, Ankara mistakenly under-estimated the strength of the Assad regime and supported hardline Islamist groups seeking its downfall. In the process, Turkey also marginalised the Kurds and alienated regional powers like Iran.

Four years on, Assad looks set to hold onto power and his regime will be a central part of a transition plan, one that foreign powers were negotiating last weekend. Turkey’s regional rival, Iran, is a key player which can no longer be ignored by the West. Not only does the pro-Assad alliance now have Russian support firmly on its side, but the international community is no longer focused on defeating the regime – instead, it is concerned with defeating jihadist groups like Isis.

The shift in focus is a significant drawback for Erdogan. Years of support for, and investment in, Islamic fundamentalist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria) and Ahrar al-Sham are about to go to waste. Ankara has played a significant role in allowing Isis and other jihadists to flourish in Syria and the region. Turkey has acquiesced to jihadist groups entering Syria via Turkey as well as their use of Turkey as a transit point for smuggling arms and funds into Syria. ....more

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-has-spent-years-allowing-jihadist-groups-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-shooting-a6747161.html

[Vika NSFW]

hardline Islamist groups

Menthal masturbation and multicultural liberal press termin for "salafi" or what?

[catch.me.if.you.can]

[mearylll]

Hi

Turkey is playing a very dangerous game. They seem to think they can support ISIS as well as threaten Europe with sending them mass migrants if they don't get their own way. The country is slowly becoming more hardline and the process of islamisation and they are surely making mistakes. I really think their strategy is going to backfire.

In terms of what Putin will do to this it is difficult to say, but surely he will be clamp down on ISIS more to show Russian citizens he is a strongman.

Hopefully this does not escalate as we really do not want to see more destruction and rivalries develop in this already unsafe region of the world.

Thanks

[Starin]

The difference is this case is the opportunity to survive, the Armenians didn't deserve to be massacred, but individually they had options which wouldn't be available in a nuclear strike... A nuclear attack is like genocide on steroids, served with a side of torture for dessert...

Nukes target civilian populations, civilian populations are targeted to destroy their ability to sustain a war effort. For what rational purpose would Russia feel compelled to take that course of action against a country like Turkey? It's simply unwarranted...

No offense, but it's crazy to say the Armenians had options.

It probably would be irrational for Russia to nuke the turks. There are better ways to fuck the turkish animals and maybe earn some profit on the side. But I disagree that it's unwarranted. It's warranted. It's justifiable. And the turks totally deserve it.

But don't worry turks, I'm sure if Putin tries to nuke you your all-Ackbary Allah can stop a nuke. Fucking morons.

Omg. I am surpsied you can actually use the internet. You are an complete idiot. Simply put racists are stupid.

[catch.me.if.you.can]

[Pollak]

I've read this yesterday, I believe that had it coming.

They had been warned to leave their airspace before shooting down. I also believe that the pilot came out alive so he should be fine.

That should teach them to havev some respect for privacy.

[troleybüs]

Turkey warned 10 times in 5 minutes but survivor pilot refuse this communication. I wonder what's the big plan here but I know public is extremely uncomfortable about this situation. They don't want any kind of war at their territory.

[Nemo1024]

It's not about Russia, Turkey have right to shoot any flying machine inside their borders. If it was another countries plane they still shoot it anyway. They didn't even know it was a Russian plane when they shot it.

That's the clincher, isn't it? Russian fighter jet was shot down over Syrain territory, so it was Turkish airforce that violated Syrian airspace.

It it was shot down over Turkey, the pilots would have ejected over Turkey, would be taken by Turkish border guard and would have been sitting safely in Turkish prison at worst. Not being dead by the hand of the US/Turkey friends - the ISIS.

Besides, Russian operations in Syrian airspace were no secret, Russia has (had?) an information sharing initiative with NATO.

And you know, when American fighters or recon panes violate Russian airspace, they are usually headed off not shot down...

This shooting-down was a premeditated act of provocation on Turkish/US part, who don't want ISIS destroyed. They've just achieved the opposite effect, though.

Oh, and anyone, who expects Putin to react in a hard or violent manner, has not been paying attention to Russian politics in the last 15 years, especially to Russia's reaction to the American invasion of Ukraine. The reaction will come, but it will be slow, balanced, and well-thought-out.

[Vika NSFW]

Turkey warned 10 times in 5 minutes

Calling in WC?

How they might to warn, if the plane on they theory was over Turkey for 17 seconds?
Tell me about interception procedure, please.

[galdur]

Yes, the wreckage landed in Syria as did the pilots. If it was supposed to have been in Turkish airspace I guess it would have to be heading out of there for the wreckage to end up in Syria.

Lies age very badly and these NATO/Turkey fabrications are so hopeless that they´re practically dead on arrival.

[ridery99]

never gonna happen cockroaches will win it's just a saying

[Nemo1024]

It's not about Russia, Turkey have right to shoot any flying machine inside their borders. If it was another countries plane they still shoot it anyway. They didn't even know it was a Russian plane when they shot it.

That's the clincher, isn't it? Russian fighter jet was shot down over Syrain territory, so it was Turkish airforce that violated Syrian airspace.

It it was shot down over Turkey, the pilots would have ejected over Turkey, would be taken by Turkish border guard and would have been sitting safely in Turkish prison at worst. Not being dead by the hand of the US/Turkey friends - the ISIS.

Besides, Russian operations in Syrian airspace were no secret, Russia has (had?) an information sharing initiative with NATO.

And you know, when American fighters or recon panes violate Russian airspace, they are usually headed off not shot down...

This shooting-down was a premeditated act of provocation on Turkish/US part, who don't want ISIS destroyed. They've just achieved the opposite effect, though.

Oh, and anyone, who expects Putin to react in a hard or violent manner, has not been paying attention to Russian politics in the last 15 years, especially to Russia's reaction to the American invasion of Ukraine. The reaction will come, but it will be slow, balanced, and well-thought-out.

As expected.
https://www.rt.com/news/323404-lavrov-syria-s24-turkey/

Moscow will measure its response to limit the harm done to Turkish and Russian businessmen, who had nothing to do with the incident, and would decide on a proper action, Lavrov said.

“We cannot fail to react to what happened. Not because we must retaliate. It’s just that there are too many issues in Turkey that pose a direct terrorist threat to our citizens. And not only ours,” he said.

Lavrov said after canceling his planned visit to Istanbul that Moscow doesn’t indent to send any senior officials to Turkey or receive any senior Turkish officials. At the same time, phone channels remain open, as evidenced by the call with Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu.

Good point:

The Russian minister said there was a question of American involvement in the downing of the Russian plane. According to his sources, the US demands all members of the anti-IS coalition led by Washington, who use US-made military aircraft, coordinate all deployments with the US military.

“I wonder if this demand of the Americans covers… Turkey. If it does, I wonder whether Turkey asked permission from the US to fly its US-made planes and take down – let’s say 'an unidentified' – plane over Syrian territory,” Lavrov said.

And a final nail in Obama's diplomatic coffin:

“President Hollande suggested measures to close the Turkish-Syrian border to stop the flow of militants and finances to terrorists. It’s remarkable that President Obama didn’t react to it. I believe it’s a good suggestion and that during the visit tomorrow President Hollande will tell us details. We are prepared to consider these measures in earnest. Many people say that sealing the border would effectively eliminate the terrorist threat in Syria,” Lavrov said.

Also, the parachuting pilots were shot at, which is a direct violation of the Geneve convention. In addition, the rescue chopper, sent to evac the pilots was shot at with TOW missile, killing one Marine.

If Turkey continues to claim that it shot down the Russian airplane over Turkish territory, then all the above also happened there, which puts Turkey into a very bad spot indeed.

[galdur]

Well, in war you attack the enemy´s supply lines. It´s basic. Those who are against such basic measures, such as Obama, Cameron, Erdogan and other NATO personalities must be the enemy or in bed with the enemy for some reason, there really is no way around it.

[Vika NSFW]

chopper, sent to evac the pilots was shot at with TOW missile, killing one Marine.

The shot was made on empty helicopter, dead marine was by fire from earth.

[J. J. Phillips]

The difference is this case is the opportunity to survive, the Armenians didn't deserve to be massacred, but individually they had options which wouldn't be available in a nuclear strike... A nuclear attack is like genocide on steroids, served with a side of torture for dessert...

Nukes target civilian populations, civilian populations are targeted to destroy their ability to sustain a war effort. For what rational purpose would Russia feel compelled to take that course of action against a country like Turkey? It's simply unwarranted...

No offense, but it's crazy to say the Armenians had options.

It probably would be irrational for Russia to nuke the turks. There are better ways to fuck the turkish animals and maybe earn some profit on the side. But I disagree that it's unwarranted. It's warranted. It's justifiable. And the turks totally deserve it.

But don't worry turks, I'm sure if Putin tries to nuke you your all-Ackbary Allah can stop a nuke. Fucking morons.

Omg. I am surpsied you can actually use the internet. You are an complete idiot. Simply put racists are stupid.

Omg. Is u still surpsied?

Just kidding. Seriously, thanks for your thoughtful reply. It's caused me to seriously rethink my views on Islam in general and Turkish culture in particular. In both cases they've clearly been nothing but positive influences bringing the human species towards enlightenment and modernity.

Wait, now I'm just kidding. Seriously, I hope to hear Erdogan and his lackies have some mysterious Litvinenko style symptoms soon. No need for a big nuke destroying valuable infrastructure. Just poison the dogs.

[bryant.coleman]

Omg. I am surpsied you can actually use the internet. You are an complete idiot. Simply put racists are stupid.

You Turkish goatfuckers are amazing. I went through a few of your recent posts, and the word "racist" was repeated 12 times. Exterminating 3 million Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians is not "racist". But if someone criticize the Turks and their bastard president Erdogan, then it becomes racist.

[Balthazar]

Turkey has right to shoot any flying creature. That's out of discussion.

Yeah, the Sun revolves around Earth, that's also out of discussion. What a clown you are, your stupidity exceeds any possible limits.

If it crosses Hatay border Turkey has right to shoot any flying creature. That's out of discussion

No, they had no such right you idiot. There was a standard protocol of interception, which was compulsory for all members of international community, even for the North Korea. But now you, middle age goatfuckers, successfully ruined it. You've made a precedent, allowing everybody in the world to do the same. Destroying international institutions is all what you are capable of.

EDIT

Turkey has violated Greek air space thousands of times per year for years. According to what you say, Greece has every right to shoot down your jets. But I find it interesting that Turkey has stopped violating Greek airspace since the incident.

[Snipe85]

Although I don't like Russian politics Turkey had no right to shoot down their plane. Every time a plane violates another country's air space it's escorted back by jets, but it's not shot at unless the countries are at war. I haven't heard of such war being announced so the attack was unnecessary.

[bryant.coleman]

Although I don't like Russian politics Turkey had no right to shoot down their plane. Every time a plane violates another country's air space it's escorted back by jets, but it's not shot at unless the countries are at war. I haven't heard of such war being announced so the attack was unnecessary.

That is, IF the Russian plane had violated the Turkish air-space. The Turkish version of the events had been very inconsistent, and as per the Russian data, the fighter jet was never present in the Turkish sky. Even the Americans confirmed that the plane was shot down when it was over the Syrian airspace in the Latakia province.

[Snipe85]

Yes their versions are completely different. It's possible they didn't go around that small part, but even if they did fly through they were in the Turkish space for less than a minute and obviously trying to fly out of it, not into it. It was enough to wait a few seconds until they cleared out instead of firing at them. There was no risk of an attack and no reason to use lethal force. It's obvious Turks were defending Syria.
Also the crash site is quite far from that "violated space" even in the Turkish version, so the plane was chased and attacked right before or even after it's left Turkish space.

[galdur]

ENANTIODROMIA IN RUSSIAN POLITICS

[[[Map: Eurasia. The insignificant tip of the peninsula there at the left is called Western-Europe.]]]



Sovereignty is a measure of power. No power - no sovereignty. According to American political scientist S. Krasner: "Sovereignty is organized hypocrisy"[1]. This is truth.

Power is distributed hierarchically in the world [2]

At the top of the pyramid of powers is the United States. It is served by a number of influential, sometimes obstinate, but always loyal vassals: the EU, Japan, Turkey, as well as distinctive proxies in the Islamic world: Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Pakistan.

The next countries in the scale of power are those who are able to effectively compete in some areas with the United States. They belong to the "second world" (not the first, but not the third): this is the BRICS countries and others like them. Brazil (collectively, Latin America), Russia, India, China and South Africa (collectively, TRANS-Saharan Africa in General). Potentially it is possible that this list can include some of the Islamic powers, seeking to be independent from the USA as much as possible.

All of the other countries in the world are irrelevant and only get underfoot, every time adjoining to someone who is stronger in each particular local case. They are the pretext for sorting things out between the powers of the first and second degree, a kind of Gastarbeitern of world politics.

The US: a structure of power of the first degree

Now the most important thing. The structure of the first power (the United States) is: the highest expression of a certain ideological formula — liberalism ( i.e. globalism or the establishment of a global liberal democracy as the most important mission), as well as two means to achieve the ultimate goal — the victory of liberalism on a global scale —

1. By peaceful trade;
2. By military force.

The "Merchants" (the Doves) in the United States government believe that in favor of liberalism you can persuade others with arguments and seductive proposals, and the “Enforcers” (the Hawks), are convinced that the quickest way to achieve this goal is through the establishment of absolute American military and geopolitical hegemony on a global scale (because the United States is a bastion of liberalism, so the bigger the US - the more that liberalism is influential, the stronger the US - the stronger and deeper is liberalism). There is a deep consensus between the “Merchants” and the “Enforcers”: they both move towards the same common goal, both simultaneously advocating for a one world government and American national power; the only difference is in the choice of means to achieve this common goal. They argue with each other, but the controversy ends when a power of the second degree appears on the horizon.

Then they all act collectively: the most important things bring them together, especially in the face of the enemy and rival. All the contradictions here are purely tactical in nature. The CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) and neocons, pacifists and American militarists are strategically and essentially one single entity. All of them are first and foremost liberals, and therefore, share a liberal ideology, which today can be defined as "American ideology".

If we understand this, we will understand almost everything about the modern world structure.

Enantiomerical compromise

Let us look in greater detail at secondary powers, powers of the second degree. To this category belongs modern Russia.

Its structure of this category depends on the structure of the first power (the US) and, in general, is similar (with differences in proportions) to the structure of all the other secondary powers. There are two symmetrical poles in this structure too: "trade" (peace) and "military" (war). They constitute the core of the bipolar system of governance. While the secondary power is not a direct vassal of the US, and has not turned into a third-rate power (that is a small size country), it has relative sovereignty that is not absolute (unlike the US) but still is not artificial (according to Krasner), like that of a small country.

Relative sovereignty consists of two poles - peace and power, which are, however, qualitatively different. The peace wing - "merchants" is presented by the ideological liberals (acting as agents of hegemony, in the sense of Gramsci [3], and global liberalism), and the security forces — "Caesarists" (also in the sense of Gramsci [4]); that is, the pragmatically oriented bureaucrats, interested only in maintaining power. If the liberals are not against changing the balance of relations with the United States, gradually giving up Russia’s sovereignty (in normal terms) to the primary power (global hegemonic), the Caesarists would refuse liberalism (which for them has no significance) in favour of sovereignty, because under direct American hegemony, the power of national bureaucracies will either be significantly restricted, or transferred into the hands of external managers (as happened in Russia in the 90s).

However both the liberals and the Caesarists, in a power of the second degree, always have a vital interest in maintaining the status quo. They are satisfied with it, as is the case now, and are not happy with the prospect of changes (regardless of which). So both poles are interested in things remaining unchanged. This leads to a sustainable and stable enantiodromia, one able to move simultaneously in two opposite directions: the military stands for peace (not war, which would be logical), and liberals stand for sovereignty (and not globalization, which follows from the ideology of liberalism). The military does not want to fight, and the liberals want to restrain globalization. So here there exists an enantiomerical compromise. Here we find all kinds of contradictory statements: Crimea is ours, Donbass — theirs; we are not at war with Ukraine, we trade with Ukraine, etc. It is not just a cover-up for expansionism using a smokescreen of peaceful but cynical diplomacy, this is indeed the way of thinking of an enantiomerical ruling elite.

Enantiodromia ends where one of the trends clearly begin to dominate. When the Caesarists realize that U.S. hegemony and liberalism as such will inevitably lead to de-sovereignization of Russia, and it does not depend on who prevails in the United States — the hawks or the doves, they (Caesarists) then shift into the zone of ideological non-liberalism (anti-liberalism) and prepare for war; a real military war. Because they know that sooner or later that war will be imposed on them if they will insist on sovereignty.

When the liberals realize the same thing, they cross the border and offer to sacrifice sovereignty for peace.

Outside of enantiodromia, bureaucrats become (anti-liberal and anti-American) patriots, ideological patriots (Russia above all), and liberal supporters of the regime and its elite become opponents of the regime, and an implacable opposition to it (there should be no Russia at all). Liberals in irreconcilable opposition represent a Fifth Column, while the liberals in the government — the Sixth Column. Symmetrically, a distinction exists between security officials and bureaucrats (within the elite), and the independent ideological core of patriotism (great power nationalists, supporters of the Orthodox Empire, traditionalists, conservatives and conservative revolutionaries, Eurasianists and followers of the 4PT).

But in modern Russia, as in almost all modern powers of the second degree, the enantiodromia practically dominates everywhere. This is the alliance of military men for peace with the liberals for sovereignty. They mimic the structure of the first power, but this imitation is based on one fundamental mistake: American elites are ideologically unanimous, aspiring towards a common goal and argue about tactics: tools, processes, timing, the place and time of carrying out of an operation, expediency, a calculation of the balance of interests, etc. In contrast, the enantiodromia elites are self-contradictory: the liberals are in one party, national bureaucrats (Caesarists) in the opposite. Doves and hawks in the U.S. are two horses harnessed from one side of the chariot; the liberals and bureaucrats in Russia - from different sides: this is enantiodromia.

Enantiodromia of the second-level powers is in a structural stupor, however it is also in a hurry to get rid of those who pose a threat - the Fifth Column, the ultra-liberal opposition who are directly challenging our sovereignty, and also the committed patriots who insist on a non-liberal ideology and the inevitability (but preparations must begin now) of a direct clash with the United States. So, outside of the mainstream are those and others. The Fifth Column, and consistent patriots (military for war) are banned. The primary discourse in the society is completely controlled by enantiodromians who are looking more and more like schizophrenics.

If we understand this, we will understand not "almost everything" in the modern world, but in fact everything. Indeed the same scheme, mutatis mutandis, works for all the other second level power countries, and even third-rate countries, which are in a field of intense controversy between wealthy and geopolitically ambitious countries.

Crimea without electricity: explanation

This general formula explain to us the reason for this surprise. When we reunited with Crimea in response to the Maidan, we were the only ones who recognized the legality of this reunion, and nobody else. It absolutely makes sense that Kiev does not just disapprove, but starts a direct "Reconquista" if it can, and if Kiev is unable to do so, it will try to strangle the separated territories in any other available way. From the point of view of consistent patriots in Russia, it is very clear and has been very clear from the beginning. The Americans and their European vassals pushed the crowd in Kiev to overthrow the compromising (enantiodromic) Yanukovych, who was both yours and ours, and not yours, and not ours (until he confused himself). The goal was to bring to a third power country, with close-to-zero sovereignty, a directly pro-American liberal elite: and so it happened. This dealt a blow to Russian sovereignty, and then despite the enantiodromic condition (this time Russian), there emerged a consensus (albeit relative) of traders and security forces who responded with the reunification with Crimea. Not all Sixth Columnists unconditionally accepted the Crimea reunion, but there was nothing they could do: those who were categorically against it could just go over to the Fifth Column.

But the joy of the patriots was premature: the Crimea became an end for something else, and with respect to the Donbass, the enantiodromia prevailed: the "enforcers" for peace together with the liberals for sovereignty began to write the Minsk agreement. Once again their slogan was: "if only there was no war" began to be heard. Trade negotiations with Kiev restarted: no one was fighting. Yes, war is peace. All is good. A mountain of corpses, an accident; the internal affair of a third-rate country. Political purges began among the patriots, who thought that the bureaucracy, Caesarists and security forces, had shifted in their direction, in the direction of Novorossiya, anti-liberal ideology and preparation for a decisive war. There it was. But enantiodromia kept its power firmly and was not going to give it up. Not now.

Yet in Kiev the situation was no better. Overthrowing one enantiodromist, a mob of this third-rate power brought to power still another enantiodromist. And in the new environment he began to waver: neither war nor peace, rushing from the fight with the rebels of Donbass to the Minsk agreements and discussions of gas prices. In this situation, two enantiodromias with the participation of the bipolar American elite (always promoting solely in their interests in any situation no matter by trade or war) Ukraine supplied electricity to the seceded Crimea.

Supplied up to a certain point, then stopped. A little more war, a little less trade. Tomorrow may be again a little more commerce, a little less of the "Right Sector", and so on in this period.

In Russia, structurally the situation the same, but the level of power is different: the difference between relative and fictitious sovereignty is still very significant. It is however partially neutralized by the fact that behind the country with virtually no sovereignty looms the shadow of the country with absolute sovereignty (the US). And here is the important conclusion: the way Poroshenko negotiates with Russia, is the same way Moscow negotiates with Washington. The imbalance of powers explains how negotiations are going: the strong can always break any agreement if it is in their interest to do so, without consequences (if there is nobody who is stronger). The weak, following the lead of the strong (trade, doves, if only there was no war), always depend on the strong more and more. And if it comes to a critical point, then it will be too late to start the war at some point, Moscow can do with Kiev whatever it wants by using the carrot and the stick tactic. But Washington can do the same with Moscow.

The liberals in Washington count on this in relations with Russia. They are willing to postpone war, so the Sixth Column in Moscow has time to strengthen its position, to embed liberalism deeper in the elites and even the masses, hoping that in this way the weakened secondary power will fall into their hands by itself. The American strategists (for example, Steve Mann) understand that liberalism, historically, strengthens democracy and by contrast, corrupts and undermines undemocratic regimes.

But this game lasts only as long as the Sixth Column stays empowered together with a guarantee of peace (the peace in exchange for liberalism) continues to weaken Russia. If ideological patriots (and not just the bureaucrats) become active during this time, then the initiative goes to the Washington hawks. Not against the Washington "doves" and "traders" as it may seem, but with their blessing. After all, they both have one goal.

Washington phones up Kiev, and electric transmission towers leading to Crimea get blown up. From Moscow it may be followed only by an enantiomerical answer: surprise or indignation. After all, war is peace. Do not forget this.

Thus, we have not only solved the riddle of our surprise, but have also learned a good theoretical lesson from this minor episode in the Great War of Continents.

[1] Krasner S. D. Sovereignty: Organized Hypocrisy. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1999.
[2] Lake David A. Hierarchy in International Relations: Authority, Sovereignty, and the New Structure of World Politics. Ithaka, NY: Cornell University Press, 2009.
[3] Gramsci, Antonio. Selections from the Prison Notebooks. International Publishers, 1971.
[4] Ibid.

http://katehon.com/1340-enantiodromia-in-russian-politics.html

[Daniel91]

Yes their versions are completely different. It's possible they didn't go around that small part, but even if they did fly through they were in the Turkish space for less than a minute and obviously trying to fly out of it, not into it. It was enough to wait a few seconds until they cleared out instead of firing at them. There was no risk of an attack and no reason to use lethal force. It's obvious Turks were defending Syria.
Also the crash site is quite far from that "violated space" even in the Turkish version, so the plane was chased and attacked right before or even after it's left Turkish space.

I think that both of them lied us about this accident.
They both have some secret agenda here and own interest and goals.
I think Turkey have some kind of deal with ISIS and Russia wants to divide NATO and Wester world over this issue (and also protect Assad.).
I don't trust them at all, it's very dirty politics what they are doing now.

[galdur]

Hmmm, think I need a caption here...

[J. J. Phillips]

[galdur]

[bryant.coleman]

Yes their versions are completely different. It's possible they didn't go around that small part, but even if they did fly through they were in the Turkish space for less than a minute and obviously trying to fly out of it

Less than a minute? An Su-24 does not take more than 5-6 seconds to travel 2,000 meters (this is the distance claimed by the Turkish defense ministry). And I am quite sure that the Turkish authorities managed to issue a total of 10 warnings during this short period of time. That is two warnings every one second.

[cryptocoiner]

It was clearly a provocation planned and sanctioned by americans. And Erdogan is an idiot to fall for this. They hope russia will fight turkey again for the profit of a london and washington. There was more then a 10 wars between turkey and russia in history.  But Putin is not an idiot. There will be no war.

[bryant.coleman]

It was clearly a provocation planned and sanctioned by americans. And Erdogan is an idiot to fall for this. They hope russia will fight turkey again for the profit of a london and washington. There was more then a 10 wars between turkey and russia in history.  But Putin is not an idiot. There will be no war.

There will be no direct war. But Russia can trigger a proxy war in the Eastern regions of Turkey, which are having a Kurdish majority. Russia can supply weapons to the PKK and the other insurgent groups operating there. Also, they could train some of the Kurdish forces in Syria, and then help them to infiltrate to Turkey.

[galdur]

The more basket cases in the periphery of Russia that end up on Welfare in the European Union the better for Russia. Ukraine, Turkey, some other likely candidates in the near future. It´ll play itself. Those who are cocky now will be begging with hat in hand later.

[bryant.coleman]

The more basket cases in the periphery of Russia that end up on Welfare in the European Union the better for Russia. Ukraine, Turkey, some other likely candidates in the near future. It´ll play itself. Those who are cocky now will be begging with hat in hand later.

The EU will disintegrate the same way as the USSR disintegrated. It was not the low crude oil prices which caused the demise of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, it was the exploding population of the non-productive republics, such as Tadzhikistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaidzhan, which strained the resources and caused the breakup. The same will happen with the EU as well.

[galdur]

The more basket cases in the periphery of Russia that end up on Welfare in the European Union the better for Russia. Ukraine, Turkey, some other likely candidates in the near future. It´ll play itself. Those who are cocky now will be begging with hat in hand later.

The EU will disintegrate the same way as the USSR disintegrated. It was not the low crude oil prices which caused the demise of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, it was the exploding population of the non-productive republics, such as Tadzhikistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaidzhan, which strained the resources and caused the breakup. The same will happen with the EU as well.

They´re emulating the Soviet Union. A newer, improved, kinder version of course or so they think. It´s basically the same model. Rubber-stamp parliament, politburo, komissars, "independent" republics etc. The model has been scammed on Europe gradually over time, since nobody in their right mind would be interested in such a deadbeat system if it were presented originally for open debate and democratic processes. Now that most people are starting to realize what has been creeping up on them they want it turned back. It´s one huge failed experiment.

[galdur]

It´s Fabian Socialism. Needless to say it originated with British fruitcakes and deviants and is very popular with their ilk both sides of the Atlantic. Americans wonder what has been turning things to shit there? Right. The fruitcake that is pushed desperately by the ruling elite, media and banks for the presidency in spite of total lack of credibility or trustworthiness? You get one guess. Getting things through gradually, wearing the opposition down over time. Attrition is its middle name. Named after Fabius, who wore down Hannibal back then.

[BigBoy89]

Hope that nothing will happen. It is very hard to prevent what will happen. Target was that every west state must be united in way to fight against the ISIS.

Yes everyone should focus on one common enemy which is Isis who are killing innocent people, it's not between Russia and Turkey it's actually the Cold War between Russia and the west let's hope it doesn't get escalated

[galdur]

Hope that nothing will happen. It is very hard to prevent what will happen. Target was that every west state must be united in way to fight against the ISIS.

Yes everyone should focus on one common enemy which is Isis who are killing innocent people, it's not between Russia and Turkey it's actually the Cold War between Russia and the west let's hope it doesn't get escalated

Right. Idiots and nuts without any clue or plan declared a war on terror fourteen years ago and now several destroyed countries later let´s hope it doesn´t escalate. It seems a little late, not to mention pointless, to hope that those same idiots and nuts are going to somehow fix things now.

[zenitzz]

Hope that nothing will happen. It is very hard to prevent what will happen. Target was that every west state must be united in way to fight against the ISIS.

Yes everyone should focus on one common enemy which is Isis who are killing innocent people, it's not between Russia and Turkey it's actually the Cold War between Russia and the west let's hope it doesn't get escalated

One would think that NATO should censure Turkey for this provocation. Failure to do so, would indicate either they are following an "agenda" contrary to its expressed purpose at the behest of (who?), or have outlasted their relevance as a viable means of arbitrating between the nations. When alliances break down, maybe its time to forge NEW alliances. For one thing, I personally believe that dealing with Russia by former cold war standards is a mistake that serves only those that profit from strife and conflict. I feel that Russia taking the field against IS is a very positive move and that the United States should stand shoulder to shoulder with them in this fight. We have done so in the past when our political differences couldn't be further apart, but we were brothers in arms against a common threat. I think if Turkey pulls any more stunts like this, and their goose should be cooked, and the rest of NATO should bring the trimmings.

[bryant.coleman]

Hope that nothing will happen. It is very hard to prevent what will happen. Target was that every west state must be united in way to fight against the ISIS.

Yes everyone should focus on one common enemy which is Isis who are killing innocent people, it's not between Russia and Turkey it's actually the Cold War between Russia and the west let's hope it doesn't get escalated

Who told you that ISIS is everyone's common enemy? It is simply wrong. For example, the common enemy of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar, and Israel is Bashar al Assad, and not the Islamic State. ISIS may be the common enemy of Russia, Iran, and the Hezbollah. But that is it. No one else takes the ISIS seriously enough.

[galdur]

I´ll tell you who tells them to think what is in no touch with reality. News stories starting with "experts say" "unnamed government sources" et cetera. They didn´t learn to be wary of them while the Iraq was was being scammed on and have continued lapping it up since and are very unlikely to stop now. I guess they want the more to believe the liars the more they are lied to. Not sure which syndrome of dysfunction that falls under.

[galdur]

Iraq PM says IS smuggles majority of oil via Turkey

Baghdad (AFP) - Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi said Monday that most oil smuggled by the Islamic State group goes through Turkey, joining a chorus of countries linking it with the jihadists' financing....

https://news.yahoo.com/iraq-pm-says-smuggles-majority-oil-via-turkey-174734468.html

[Balthazar]

Meanwhile, flight recorder has been found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8jwiMuq05A

Something tells me that Erdogan is going to be humiliated once again.

[galdur]

Not surprisingly the only sensible strategy in this whole mess is from the Russians and Germans, those who avoided creating the mess to begin with. Now the German Foreign Minister is welcomed in Baghdad and the Iraqis offer the Russians cooperation in the fight.

Enemies once, then friends to the great chagrin of those who always want chaos and war instead of cooperation and trade. I seriously doubt that they can be made enemies again. They´ll eventually come out as the winners, as usual, once the dust settles and this catastrophic mess has been resolved. It´s always important to have the right friends in the right places.

[frank0929]

Hahahaha. I see this just now. That fits perfect to his broken English.
I remember this "sii yuu" moment. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlr8dAlRKLA

[Xubu]

It's not like NATO is any better.

That's easy to say, come with proof please!

[Xubu]

Hahahaha. I see this just now. That fits perfect to his broken English.
I remember this "sii yuu" moment. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlr8dAlRKLA

At least the guy makes makes himself clear in English. As it's not his main language.

[bryant.coleman]

Iraq PM says IS smuggles majority of oil via Turkey

It is not rocket science. Turkey is also the easiest route to smuggle the Iraqi and Syrian oil. The Turkish oil refinery in the city of Batman is the closest to the ISIS-controlled oilfields in Syria and Northern Iraq. They can't smuggle the oil to Jordan, as the terrain is mostly desert and there are no refineries close to the border.

[galdur]

Iraq PM says IS smuggles majority of oil via Turkey

It is not rocket science. Turkey is also the easiest route to smuggle the Iraqi and Syrian oil. The Turkish oil refinery in the city of Batman is the closest to the ISIS-controlled oilfields in Syria and Northern Iraq. They can't smuggle the oil to Jordan, as the terrain is mostly desert and there are no refineries close to the border.

Well yeah, I doubt that very many of those who have opinions on that oil transport, have much of a clue about topography in the area. They may not even be aware of the existence of topography.

[Balthazar]

Hahahaha. I see this just now. That fits perfect to his broken English.
I remember this "sii yuu" moment. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlr8dAlRKLA

At least the guy makes makes himself clear in English. As it's not his main language.

It's not my first language as well, but that doesn't prevent me from educating myself. And I'm not a president, at least for now.

Common, maybe it's time to stop deceiving yourself? Then you'll see that this guy doesn't deserve his current position. He's just another ignorant and unbelievably greedy scumbag. I'm ready to bet that any member of this community would be better than him.

[bryant.coleman]

Meanwhile, flight recorder has been found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8jwiMuq05A

Something tells me that Erdogan is going to be humiliated once again.

I don't know how much information will be available in the flight data recorder, as the attack was very sudden and unprovoked. Well, if the GPS data of the flight path is available, then it will refute Turkish claims that the Su-24 strayed on to the Turkish territory.

BTW... the postmortem report confirms that Lieutenant Colonel Oleg Peshkov died of gunshots. More than 8 gunshot wounds were found on his body:

http://most.tv/news/59392.html

[vero]

Meanwhile, flight recorder has been found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8jwiMuq05A

Something tells me that Erdogan is going to be humiliated once again.

The Russians also have the "Black Box" of the Polish Presidential Aircraft that crashed in Russia. So far the Poles have received a "transcript" of what was said on the aircraft before it crashed. Aren't the Russians gems?

[Balthazar]

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/10/innovations-why-is-moscow-developing-an-army-of-automated-insects-robot-roach-russia/

They should deploy one of these cockroaches in Erdogan's living room. 

[Balthazar]

[bitsmichel]

Meanwhile, flight recorder has been found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8jwiMuq05A

Something tells me that Erdogan is going to be humiliated once again.

The Russians also have the "Black Box" of the Polish Presidential Aircraft that crashed in Russia. So far the Poles have received a "transcript" of what was said on the aircraft before it crashed. Aren't the Russians gems?

Erdogan will release his own flight recorder tape.

[Balthazar]

https://twitter.com/WarfareWW/status/677464825040105472

[summer345]

The black box analyzing Will tell true

[frank0929]

The black box analyzing Will tell true

3 chips out of 8 is broken. We'll see who's lying. Turkey has enough evidence but Russia is trying their luck. I don't think they can prove anything with black box unless they changed the info with fraud.

[simplelife888]

The black box analyzing Will tell true

3 chips out of 8 is broken. We'll see who's lying. Turkey has enough evidence but Russia is trying their luck. I don't think they can prove anything with black box unless they changed the info with fraud.

Yes you are saying true i deal with you but i wonder too what will say they are ,after open black box , turkey and russia have to be careful and only focus isis

[Balthazar]

Turkey has enough evidence

Best joke of this day, thank you for laugh.

[n3o111]

It's already proven that Turkey has right to shoot down the plane, ends of story. Russia is trying too hard, still they have no chance. They should've apologized at the first place, they broke the air field rules.

[Balthazar]

they broke the air field rules.

First, you should try to read something about the rules, which you're referring to. Otherwise you're looking like just another dictaphone with erdogan's speech on its tape.

It's already proven that Turkey has right to shoot down the plane,

Sorry, are you dumb?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1261126.msg13112138#msg13112138

They should've apologized at the first place

Keep on dreaming, lousy IS lover.

Russia is trying too hard, still they have no chance.

It's you who are trying too hard here, and your failure seems quite expectable for me.

[n3o111]

You are the dumb one here Balthazar. Where did you find I support ISIS? Fuck all terrorist groups. I don't support Turkish government, but nobody can violate our air field. We shoot if they did. Now go back to your cave and cry racist Putin lover.

[BADecker]

This happened right before Thanksgiving.

In America, we raise our turkeys for Thanksgiving. We don't shoot them anymore, except a little for sport.

Turkeys shooting at Russian plains is just ridiculous.

[Balthazar]

This happened right before Thanksgiving.

In America, we raise our turkeys for Thanksgiving.

[BADecker]

This happened right before Thanksgiving.

In America, we raise our turkeys for Thanksgiving.

LOL!  So good!   

[n691309]

Things in turkey and russia are not going well, first i was informed that russia was ok about what happened but seems that they are not asking for apology but turkey has become a strong country.

[Nemo1024]

The flight-recorder from the downed Russian bomber has been opened today in the presence of international journalists and experts. This is the first such public unsealing in the world practice.

Foreign experts note unprecedented openness of Su-24M flight recorder unsealing process
http://tass.ru/en/world/845400

Black box of downed Russian Su-24M jet damaged
http://tass.ru/en/defense/845208

British and Chinese experts will participate in decoding. The results are expected by the 21st of December.

"In order to ensure maximal transparency and openness, we addressed foreign experts from 14 countries with an invitation to take part in the work [investigation] as observers. However, many specialists refused to participate in the investigation citing various reasons, excluding only Mr Liu Chang Wei from China and Mr Jonathan Gillespie from the United Kingdom," Dronov said.

[bryant.coleman]

Turkeys shooting at Russian plains is just ridiculous.

Well, it has happened before, but to be honest I was surprised. 

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-04-25/news/mn-901_1_turkey-shotgun-triggering

At least in that incident there were no casualties, apart from one minor injury. And a few hours after this incident, the "rebellious" Turkey was roasted and served to the guests.

[zenitzz]

The flight-recorder from the downed Russian bomber has been opened today in the presence of international journalists and experts. This is the first such public unsealing in the world practice.

Foreign experts note unprecedented openness of Su-24M flight recorder unsealing process
http://tass.ru/en/world/845400

Black box of downed Russian Su-24M jet damaged
http://tass.ru/en/defense/845208

British and Chinese experts will participate in decoding. The results are expected by the 21st of December.

"In order to ensure maximal transparency and openness, we addressed foreign experts from 14 countries with an invitation to take part in the work [investigation] as observers. However, many specialists refused to participate in the investigation citing various reasons, excluding only Mr Liu Chang Wei from China and Mr Jonathan Gillespie from the United Kingdom," Dronov said.

Russians will punish the Turks for the stupidity of their leadership. They deserve the punishment.

[HarHarHar9965]

The black box analyzing Will tell true

3 chips out of 8 is broken. We'll see who's lying. Turkey has enough evidence but Russia is trying their luck. I don't think they can prove anything with black box unless they changed the info with fraud.

During all flight time, aircraft was flying only within borders of Syrian territory. Objective monitoring data shows it Syrian rebel told his fighters opened fire on one of the Russian pilots, killing him. He said the goal was to capture pilot alive

[bryant.coleman]

Russians will punish the Turks for the stupidity of their leadership. They deserve the punishment.

The educated Turks in urban Western Turkey are very hostile to Erdogan and his radical Islamist party. It is mostly the uneducated ones in the Central Anatolia who are supporting him. But the Westerners will be the ones who are going to get affected the most. Because most of the tourist places are located in Western part of Turkey.

[Balthazar]

Russians will punish the Turks for the stupidity of their leadership. They deserve the punishment.

The educated Turks in urban Western Turkey are very hostile to Erdogan and his radical Islamist party. It is mostly the uneducated ones in the Central Anatolia who are supporting him. But the Westerners will be the ones who are going to get affected the most. Because most of the tourist places are located in Western part of Turkey.

Time will come when western turkey will proclaim its independence from the eastern rednecks, which are causing 90% of problems. Central Anatolia must be controlled by iron hand, since its people aren't capable of making choice at the election polls. President & parliament aren't options for them, they need either general-governor or sovereign protector, which should be appointed by some greater force.

[n3o111]

This thread is the live evidence of how people comment here without any knowledge about the subject. It made me laugh, thanks.

[The Young Turk]

Russians will punish the Turks for the stupidity of their leadership. They deserve the punishment.

The educated Turks in urban Western Turkey are very hostile to Erdogan and his radical Islamist party. It is mostly the uneducated ones in the Central Anatolia who are supporting him. But the Westerners will be the ones who are going to get affected the most. Because most of the tourist places are located in Western part of Turkey.

Time will come when western turkey will proclaim its independence from the eastern rednecks, which are causing 90% of problems. Central Anatolia must be controlled by iron hand, since its people aren't capable of making choice at the election polls. President & parliament aren't options for them, they need either general-governor or sovereign protector, which should be appointed by some greater force.

Are you cold in russia?
If you're then We (Turks) can burn Moscow again*

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_of_Moscow_%281571%29


No one can seperate Turkey, but we *seperated* russia once (maybe twice) we can do it again

[galdur]

This thread is the live evidence of how people comment here without any knowledge about the subject. It made me laugh, thanks.

Well yeah, maybe you´ll explain WHY that is so. Until then it´s just your opinion and as such just another speck of dust blowing in the wind around here so to speak.

[Balthazar]

It made me laugh, thanks.

Are you still here?

Well yeah, maybe you´ll explain WHY that is so.

"Because the TV says so". Typical remote-controlled monkey, what else to expect from this android.

[galdur]

It made me laugh, thanks.

Are you still here?

Well yeah, maybe you´ll explain WHY that is so.

"Because the TV says so". Typical remote-controlled monkey, what else to expect from this android.

It would have looked slightly better if the guy had said, I THINK you guys don´t have a clue...and much better:

I think you guys don´t have a clue and here are a few FACTS that will turn this opinion of mine into an ARGUMENT.

[Balthazar]

It made me laugh, thanks.

Are you still here?

Well yeah, maybe you´ll explain WHY that is so.

"Because the TV says so". Typical remote-controlled monkey, what else to expect from this android.

It would have looked slightly better if the guy had said, I THINK you guys don´t have a clue...and much better:

I think you guys don´t have a clue and here are a few FACTS that will turn this opinion of mine into an ARGUMENT.

1. Never say "I think ...", "in my opinion ...", "I guess ...", etc.
2. Ignore any unwanted facts, always try to exaggerate the importance of desired facts.
3. Always pretend that you're saying something obvious to everyone, especially if it's not.

I guess that these are the prime directives of any state-owned troll.

[bryant.coleman]

No one can seperate Turkey

No one can "seperate", but we might be able to separate (i.e split).

This was "Turkey" in 17th century:



And this is Turkey, as of now:



And this will be Turkey in 2020:

[technology2015]

The last maps for 2020 impossible

[bryant.coleman]

The last maps for 2020 impossible

Why? Turkey will be split in to many smaller regions. Armenia will take the North-East, while an independent Kurdistan will be established in the South-East (Bakurê Kurdistanê‎) with Diyarbakır as the capital. Historical Greek regions of Constantinople (Eastern Thrace) and Smyrna will be given back to Greece, Northern Cyprus will be merged with the Republic of Cyprus and the remaining regions will be united as the Ottoman Republic.

[Balthazar]

https://www.rt.com/news/327063-russian-intelligence-oil-tankers-turkey/

[troleybüs]

And this will be Turkey in 2020:

ROFLMAO. This troll really think they can split Turkey's borders. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You living Russian dream, ha? You want to get down hot waters but you'll get hot dildo stick in Uranus.

[bryant.coleman]

ROFLMAO. This troll really think they can split Turkey's borders. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

It has happened in the past. And it will happen in the future as well. Do you really think that you can butcher tens of thousands of Kurds without any consequence at all? The Indonesians thought the same, when they massacred the Roman Catholics in East Timor. But in the end, the genocide forced the UN to act, and East Timor seceded from Indonesia. The same will happen with Turkey.

[troleybüs]

It has happened in the past. And it will happen in the future as well. Do you really think that you can butcher tens of thousands of Kurds without any consequence at all? The Indonesians thought the same, when they massacred the Roman Catholics in East Timor. But in the end, the genocide forced the UN to act, and East Timor seceded from Indonesia. The same will happen with Turkey.

It's not gonna happen before 2023. I support free Kurd nation inside Syria-Iraq borders but they can't get any ground from Turkish borders. They don't even want that, they want self-government, but fascist government won't let that happen. Maybe in 2050 when new world order and one nation comes you can remove all borders but it's impossible with current condition.

[butragenjo]

its very nice,because russian is rebels:)

[RejiDevsa]

ROFLMAO. This troll really think they can split Turkey's borders. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

It has happened in the past. And it will happen in the future as well. Do you really think that you can butcher tens of thousands of Kurds without any consequence at all? The Indonesians thought the same, when they massacred the Roman Catholics in East Timor. But in the end, the genocide forced the UN to act, and East Timor seceded from Indonesia. The same will happen with Turkey.

Maybe eventually, but not while Turkey is a part of NATO and backed by the US. Isn't that what happened in Indonesia and East Timor as well? While the US was busy selling weapons to Indonesia, nothing was done about the massacres.

[bryant.coleman]

Maybe eventually, but not while Turkey is a part of NATO and backed by the US. Isn't that what happened in Indonesia and East Timor as well? While the US was busy selling weapons to Indonesia, nothing was done about the massacres.

The NATO membership offers some protection, but it should not be taken for granted. Given how insane and loony Erdogan is, there is a strong chance that he will start butchering the Kurds on a massive scale (I am talking about massacring hundreds of thousands or even millions of them). Western media will no longer be capable of ignoring these events, and the UN will be forced to intervene.

[designerusa]

Turkey shoots down military plane on Syria border

Turkey on Tuesday shot down a military plane on the Syrian border, local media reported, citing military sources.

A plane exploded in the air and the fireball fell on a Turkmen mountain on the Syrian side of the border, CNN-Turk and NTV televisions reported.

A Turkish government official told AFP: "We are tying to identify the nationality of the plane."

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/turkey-shoots-down-military-plane-syria-border-media-081827673.html

Downed foreign jet received 10 warnings in five minutes, challenged by two F-16s, Turkish General Staff says

AFP : #BREAKING Two pilots ejected from downed plane, one captured by Syria rebels: Turkish reports

t
Turkey is the most modern country among islamic countries . it defends western democracy and its valuable ethics. this is a stupid idea that Turkey dont bother its neighbour country's problems because it has 2.5 million refrugeesin its borders so Turkey feels responsible for syrias domestic chaos.

[galdur]

[Balthazar]

Abkhazia joined the Russian sanctions against Turkey

http://tass.ru/en/world/847986