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speeder
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June 07, 2011, 11:54:12 AM
 #41

I know what can be done!

Imitate Steam.


On Steam, if you do a paypal chargeback, they ban your account.

But why is this effective?

It is because you lose the stuff in your account.



So, we must do the same on BCM:

You can only use PayPal, if you have some bitcoins in your account, the more bitcoins you have, the more you can buy using PayPal, thus if you do funny stuff with PayPal, you risk losing all your BTC.

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avoid3d
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June 07, 2011, 12:03:53 PM
 #42

A suggestion for those using paypal. After payment get the buyer to open a dispute and then immediately close it, a dispute can only be opened once, so it's no longer possible to claim a refund.

Would that be suspicious to paypal

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bitcoinTrader
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June 07, 2011, 12:08:26 PM
 #43

Guys,

All the above suggested method may be able to lessen the risk of chargeback, but cant prevent what happened to my account.
In my case, there was no chargeback, but paypal itself decided to review certain transactions (may be because I did lot of trades, involving $$).

So really, there is no way to mitigate your paypal risk I guess....

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June 07, 2011, 12:20:29 PM
 #44

speeder I like your idea!! Smiley

rhino
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June 07, 2011, 12:23:20 PM
 #45

Guys,

All the above suggested method may be able to lessen the risk of chargeback, but cant prevent what happened to my account.
In my case, there was no chargeback, but paypal itself decided to review certain transactions (may be because I did lot of trades, involving $$).

So really, there is no way to mitigate your paypal risk I guess....

Agreed, we can solve the Paypal transaction failings with some more hoops, but I'm still plagued by the feasibility of it based on the Paypal terms of service. 

It states you can't trade 'securities', and a security wikipedia says is a 'negotiable financial instrument representing financial value'.  The act of selling it for fiat currency instantly makes it a security I guess.

Evidently, it would be mandatory that no transaction mentions bitcoins in the description - and that unfortunately can only be by user discretion.  I'm sure some nefarious sad case number cruncher in the Paypal offices is proudly presenting their boss with their latest creation, the "all transactions mentioning bit* or BTC in the description" report. 

Besides that, it seems that chargeback claims draw attention and perhaps multiple small transactions over short time periods?  Two more things I can't see a way around.

As difficult as it will make my bitcoin life, I'm convinced enough from what I've read in this thread to dump Paypal forever.  I consider it too high a risk for me as a seller, regardless of any external safety mechanisms - Paypal hold all the cards, so I'm moving to a different table.  I suspect I'll have to change tables a few more times in the future too!
Bazil
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June 07, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
 #46

dwdollar, any plans to implement a Dwolla funding option?

I may.  I'm getting a lot of requests for it.

Yeah hopefully, since that's the only other way I can fund my account besides the mail.  I'm lucky I got in during open registration.  I've had nothing but good luck on your site.  Although PP was being slow and dumb.  Maybe you can implement some kind of direct funding like through credit card or debit card.  All this funding through a third party like PP or Dwolla is pretty annoying and delays deposits.

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Brainslug
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June 07, 2011, 01:58:16 PM
 #47

I guess the biggest problem is simply that there are many people spread throughout many parts of the world, not everyone has a credit/debit card, not everyone's bank supports direct wiring or payments from/to other countries. I for one live in Europe, my bank supports transactions from/to other countries, but usually there are some fees that are pretty pesky, so PayPal is usually (my personal) first choice for things like that. But yeah, with PayPal being such a pain in the butt with their TOS andwhatnot, I guess there are not many options.
(I hope any of that made some sense, I'm a little sleep deprived and English is not my first language.)

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Mastermind
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June 07, 2011, 02:09:22 PM
 #48

Followed the link to this thread from the BCM website. I just wanted to say that I for one, really appreciate that BCM allowed the use of PayPal. After reading all of these horror stories in this thread I feel very lucky. I'm one of the people who got in during the open registration, and I have sold several BitCoins, through BCM and PayPal, over the last couple weeks and have had no problems at all. So far anyways. I do however feel that PayPal is not the way to continue with BCM. Although it has been working fine for me with BTC thus far, I have had issues with it in the past while selling 'non-tangible' items. However, I understand that for many people it is very convenient, and even in some cases, the only means of doing BTC transactions. Many of the suggestions posted in this thread will help solving the issue with PayPal, but I think that the right answer is to simply stop using them at BCM. I'm in the same boat with everyone that is wanting to use Dwolla. It looks like an excellent alternative to PayPal, and I would like to see it used at BCM as well.
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June 07, 2011, 02:21:40 PM
 #49

A suggestion for those using paypal. After payment get the buyer to open a dispute and then immediately close it, a dispute can only be opened once, so it's no longer possible to claim a refund.

Would that be suspicious to paypal

Alternatively once the buyer has paid, send out a blank envelop using recorded delivery to their paypal address. 99% of the time paypal will side with the seller if you have a tracking number (and they only cost a few pence). But as rhino says that won't help you if paypal locks your funds or reverses the transaction themselves.

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June 07, 2011, 02:44:03 PM
 #50

It states you can't trade 'securities', and a security wikipedia says is a 'negotiable financial instrument representing financial value'.  The act of selling it for fiat currency instantly makes it a security I guess.

IANAL but will ask a lawyer to review the clause in the TOS:

"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account."

As I read this, the prohibition is on selling securities with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, not a prohibition on securities in general.

I can fund an E*Trade account with PayPal
I can buy gold and silver on ebay all day long with PayPal

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gonzas144
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June 07, 2011, 02:52:03 PM
 #51

But is it cheap to do that?

And if I have to go to the postal office every time that I do a transaction would be very annoying.

I prefer to focus on bitcoinmarket security measures.

Quote
You can only use PayPal, if you have some bitcoins in your account, the more bitcoins you have, the more you can buy using PayPal, thus if you do funny stuff with PayPal, you risk losing all your BTC.

Thats nice. But first How do you buy the bitcoins ?. And, where is the benefit there?. If I want to sell all my bitcoins and my only method is PAYPAL I can't... because I must always have some bitcoins in the account. Trading will be more difficult, although I think is not a bad idea to be considered.

I think is easier to hold the buyers BTC until is not possible to open a dispute in paypal for that transaction. But it would be annoying to for new buyers. And I think that punishing all the users for just a certain % of scammers is not the way.

Another Idea: We can use the same confirmation method as bitmarket plus a real ID confirmation, like a document, a credit card bill and so on.
Therefor it would be a lot more difficult for scammers to operate.

Obviously, people who uses PAYPAL takes the risk, but for many of them is the ONLY WAY (as me) to cash out the money, or to deposit for buying BTC.

gonzas144
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June 07, 2011, 06:14:50 PM
 #52

Followed the link to this thread from the BCM website. I just wanted to say that I for one, really appreciate that BCM allowed the use of PayPal. After reading all of these horror stories in this thread I feel very lucky. I'm one of the people who got in during the open registration, and I have sold several BitCoins, through BCM and PayPal, over the last couple weeks and have had no problems at all. So far anyways. I do however feel that PayPal is not the way to continue with BCM. Although it has been working fine for me with BTC thus far, I have had issues with it in the past while selling 'non-tangible' items. However, I understand that for many people it is very convenient, and even in some cases, the only means of doing BTC transactions. Many of the suggestions posted in this thread will help solving the issue with PayPal, but I think that the right answer is to simply stop using them at BCM. I'm in the same boat with everyone that is wanting to use Dwolla. It looks like an excellent alternative to PayPal, and I would like to see it used at BCM as well.

The issue here is that Dwolla is limited to the US if im correct.
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June 07, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
 #53

A couple thing I noticed:
First, user #5184... He was the first encounter I had with someone doing the "dispute after confirmation" scam.  I had messaged him many times as well as the email of the PP user that had disputed the purchase.  I was persistent and eventually got #5184 to give me back the BTC that I sold.  After my negative rating of #5184, I got a lot of messages from other users who also got scammed asking me how i reacted (check out his ratings now).

A little while ago when the PPUSD price on BCM was going crazy ($40) I checked out the "recent trades" multiple times to see who was obviously intentionally overcharging for trades to push the price up.  I saw a lot of high price activity from both user #6038 and #5810, especially between themselves.

I have to say, I am glad that I was lucky to get in during the open invitation window because despite the scammers, I really like BCM.


This is a new clue, may be they are the same person or a team.
xGreg
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June 07, 2011, 07:34:06 PM
 #54

Reading this thread made ​​me nervous.  Sad

I have a question.

What is the maximum time/days a person can chargeback on paypal?

Send me money for no reason: 18yrNnV8mK1XCtNTDakrfRokF7AbSis3Fm
gonzas144
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June 07, 2011, 07:40:44 PM
 #55

Reading this thread made ​​me nervous.  Sad

I have a question.

What is the maximum time/days a person can chargeback on paypal?

Same question here.
BCEmporium
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June 07, 2011, 08:13:04 PM
 #56

45 days

Did I heard a holy shit! from that side?
Garrett Burgwardt
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June 07, 2011, 08:15:26 PM
 #57

45 days

Did I heard a holy shit! from that side?

Incorrect! Paypal can chargeback up to 180 days later.

Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned Smiley
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June 07, 2011, 08:18:44 PM
 #58

Incorrect! Paypal can chargeback up to 180 days later.

Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned Smiley

OK... just checked item dispute, where it states 45 days, so I guess after your input the "holy shit" turned into a big F... 180 days is about "report fraudulent use", right?

OTH Garrett, PP is still one of the best links between "Bitcoin and reality", as LR is a phony "bank" to where you can't either deposit or withdraw directly. Complicated!
Mr.Pie
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June 07, 2011, 10:25:00 PM
 #59

I'm very lucky
all my transactions have been relatively small...but however
since I live overseas away from the states.....paypal is really the only viable payment option for me


on bitmarket.eu which will be my alternative for awhile till bitcoin market can come back up
they require you to post heatware, ebay feedback or anything that is related to online transaction feedback to verify
your account personally after you register before you can start any transactions on their market.

Why don't we do that? the invitations/close market sounds good as well

I also like the ideas of immediate bans....
and how about adding in a prompt after each transaction to leave feedback?

I've done only 2 small transactions in my account since last week or so~ but nobody's left feedback for each of my transactions
I've left feedback for them...but they didn't....we need a large button or prompt for them to leave feedback
Garrett Burgwardt
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June 07, 2011, 10:26:16 PM
 #60

Incorrect! Paypal can chargeback up to 180 days later.

Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned Smiley

OK... just checked item dispute, where it states 45 days, so I guess after your input the "holy shit" turned into a big F... 180 days is about "report fraudulent use", right?

OTH Garrett, PP is still one of the best links between "Bitcoin and reality", as LR is a phony "bank" to where you can't either deposit or withdraw directly. Complicated!

Paypal sucks.

Mail a check, send a bank wire, etc. Tons of better ways to get money into mtgox.

Or just do some work for bitcoins! It's not hard Smiley

-Garrett
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