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dwdollar
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June 06, 2011, 05:16:09 PM
 #1

I'd like to apologize to anyone who was 'burnt' by the recent events.  Especially to older members who may have struggled to get an invitation.  Open registration was a bad mistake.

I've told some inquiries BMBTC/PPUSD will be re-listed once all trades are confirmed and scammers are purged.  This may be true.  If PayPal does not take the proper side on many of these cases I am officially done with them.

Bitcoin will flourish with or without PayPal.

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Ian Maxwell
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June 06, 2011, 05:19:16 PM
 #2

For reference, PayPal closed my cases in the buyer's favor before enough time had passed for anyone to even look at the evidence I provided. I will be surprised if even one of the people scammed recovers his money through the PayPal dispute process.

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June 06, 2011, 05:20:29 PM
 #3

I for one was glad that you had paypal as an option. It made it very convenient to purchase my first bit coins. I hope that it does indeed come back or that we can find an alternative to paypal if need be.

Thanks!

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dwdollar
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June 06, 2011, 05:35:06 PM
 #4

For reference, PayPal closed my cases in the buyer's favor before enough time had passed for anyone to even look at the evidence I provided. I will be surprised if even one of the people scammed recovers his money through the PayPal dispute process.

I'm getting the impression that PayPal is intentionally trying to shake any connection between itself and Bitcoin.  That is, they WANT to burn people and discredit Bitcoin to new eyeballs.
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June 06, 2011, 05:44:46 PM
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For reference, PayPal closed my cases in the buyer's favor before enough time had passed for anyone to even look at the evidence I provided. I will be surprised if even one of the people scammed recovers his money through the PayPal dispute process.

I'm getting the impression that PayPal is intentionally trying to shake any connection between itself and Bitcoin.  That is, they WANT to burn people and discredit Bitcoin to new eyeballs.

This makes the most sense as Paypal has had nothing but stories of frozen and locked accounts with anything Bitcoin related. They're as much of a competitor to Bitcoin as Blockbuster was when Netflix came out...out with the dinosaurs, in with the new.

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June 06, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
 #6

dwdollar, any plans to implement a Dwolla funding option?

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June 06, 2011, 07:28:20 PM
 #7

Can anybody here speak french? I'm trying to track down a scammer, so I figured out contacting the ISP of the IPs he logged in with would be a good idea. But they're french and my french isn't very good; I'm having trouble just navigating around the ISPs' homepages. So if anybody would be kind to help my writing a message to the french ISP, I'd be very thankful. And if i get my money back, you might even get a bitcoin or two as reward  Smiley

Edit: I know he might be using proxies or just using unprotected wifi of other people, but who know? Maybe he isn't...
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June 06, 2011, 07:34:46 PM
 #8

I'm getting a lot of inquiries so I will post them here:

LoginID, MemberID, IP Address, Succeeded/Failed, Datetime

19913   5184   93.96.21.223   Succeeded   2011-06-02 19:15:25
20041   5184   82.22.253.146   Failed   2011-06-02 20:12:22
20044   5184   82.22.253.146   Succeeded   2011-06-02 20:12:40
21033   5184   80.7.151.74   Failed   2011-06-03 09:36:20
21034   5184   80.7.151.74   Succeeded   2011-06-03 09:36:50
21069   5184   80.7.151.74   Succeeded   2011-06-03 10:13:24
21515   5184   82.255.162.61   Succeeded   2011-06-03 15:47:56
21819   5184   82.255.162.61   Succeeded   2011-06-03 19:17:23
23760   5184   217.23.3.57   Failed   2011-06-04 12:03:02
23762   5184   217.23.3.57   Failed   2011-06-04 12:03:20
23763   5184   217.23.3.57   Failed   2011-06-04 12:03:33

24372   5806   81.97.172.21   Succeeded   2011-06-04 15:42:10
24768   5806   81.97.172.21   Succeeded   2011-06-04 17:56:06
25197   5806   81.97.172.21   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:47:08
25483   5806   81.97.172.21   Succeeded   2011-06-04 22:42:58
25828   5806   82.16.104.171   Succeeded   2011-06-05 01:57:57
26252   5806   77.96.212.229   Succeeded   2011-06-05 05:28:31

24125   5810   88.176.67.195   Succeeded   2011-06-04 13:49:04
24147   5810   88.185.237.205   Succeeded   2011-06-04 14:00:20
24309   5810   82.251.192.128   Succeeded   2011-06-04 15:14:48
24631   5810   82.251.192.128   Succeeded   2011-06-04 17:26:42
25029   5810   82.251.192.128   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:05:51
25123   5810   82.251.192.128   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:27:28
25165   5810   82.251.192.128   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:42:49
25186   5810   82.251.192.128   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:45:33
25687   5810   90.47.111.243   Succeeded   2011-06-05 00:29:31
26598   5810   90.47.111.243   Failed   2011-06-05 09:44:38
26599   5810   90.47.111.243   Failed   2011-06-05 09:45:03
27983   5810   138.37.135.249   Failed   2011-06-06 10:43:45

23883   6038   95.208.79.58   Succeeded   2011-06-04 12:58:36
23889   6038   95.208.79.58   Failed   2011-06-04 12:59:17
23895   6038   95.208.79.58   Succeeded   2011-06-04 12:59:29
23917   6038   95.208.79.58   Failed   2011-06-04 13:01:10
23919   6038   95.208.79.58   Succeeded   2011-06-04 13:01:23
23947   6038   95.208.79.58   Succeeded   2011-06-04 13:03:32
24645   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-04 17:27:36
25033   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:06:15
25168   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-04 20:43:22
26036   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-05 04:06:08
26083   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-05 04:27:07
26171   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-05 04:55:48
26214   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-05 05:13:22
26305   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-05 05:57:09
26327   6038   82.65.5.209   Succeeded   2011-06-05 06:01:52
26736   6038   24.218.244.153   Failed   2011-06-05 11:32:02
26738   6038   24.218.244.153   Succeeded   2011-06-05 11:34:27
27008   6038   82.16.104.171   Failed   2011-06-05 15:49:22
27009   6038   82.16.104.171   Succeeded   2011-06-05 15:49:50
27265   6038   67.167.252.102   Failed   2011-06-05 19:28:35
27545   6038   217.23.3.57   Failed   2011-06-05 23:20:37
27546   6038   217.23.3.57   Failed   2011-06-05 23:20:51

As you can see, most of them are from the UK, Netherlands, France, and Germany.

There are a couple more on my watchlist but I don't have any evidence yet.



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June 06, 2011, 07:38:02 PM
 #9

FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds

Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.

Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
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June 06, 2011, 08:06:56 PM
 #10

I'll just echo digdugg67 and say that BMBTC/PPUSD helped to acquire a good starting position in BTC faster than any other possible method. I would love to see it reinstated but understand the issue. I'm now getting accounts online with LR, MB, DW, etc. but PP was very easy, fluid and successful.

A tip I'll share regarding PayPal payments - if you have a Discover card, your account may have been activated for Discover Money Messenger. Essentially Discover is using PayPal as a backend for cardholders to send personal payments from the Discover Card. There are two benefits (and perhaps a third):
1) There are no fees charged to either the sender or receiver of the money. The receiver just gets it in their PayPal account like any other payment with a note about it being from Discover.
2) You get cashback on the money you send at up to 1% depending on your cashback level.

possibly

3) I don't know if this would work but you may have another layer of chargeback capability at the credit card level in the event you pay but are never confirmed. I think PayPal has no love for either buyers or sellers of an alternative electronic currency that really threatens their business model. Discover, on the other hand, probably cares a little less so long as you make your payments and interest on the cash transaction you buy BTC with.

One drawback I should note is daily/monthly limits on the service. I've heard of limits of $200/$200 up to $400/$5000. If you buy a lot of BTC you could reach your limit quickly.

As always, YMMV.

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June 06, 2011, 09:05:31 PM
 #11

What is the most viable option going forward?
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June 06, 2011, 09:14:29 PM
 #12

I'll chime in here and add that I was burnt by user 5810 to the tune of ~$550 USD.  Two separate transactions and paypal closed one case almost immediately despite the initial notification stating that I had 7 days to respond.  There was no explanation or note of any kind in the case.

I'm a long time member of paypal in good standing, not that I *really* expected them to take that into account.

The second case is still open and I posted any/all supporting evidence, such that I had.  If I do get any serious response I'll update here.
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June 06, 2011, 09:38:04 PM
 #13

FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds

Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.

Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.


Where is that in their TOS?  It may exist, but I've never seen it.  Have a link handy?

A closed network is much easier to manage.  I can eventually root out the scammers or whoever is inviting them.  Otherwise they just keep making new accounts.

When it's all said and done I may re-list it, but I will rewrite the email contracts and make it VERY clear about the risk involved AND that BCM can not be liable for any loss.
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June 06, 2011, 09:41:55 PM
 #14

dwdollar, any plans to implement a Dwolla funding option?

I may.  I'm getting a lot of requests for it.
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June 06, 2011, 09:46:14 PM
 #15

Closest thing in the PayPal TOS would be:
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account."

But only if you construed it as:
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell securities."

I'm sure that in some strained legal definition, someone could plausibly call BTC a security of sorts.

However, with that said, there is no explicit prohibition on buying electronic currencies so long as they are not illegal (as anything illegal is outlawed elsewhere in the TOS).

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June 06, 2011, 10:08:02 PM
 #16

Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.

I use PayPal and got really unhappy with how BCM went (and I expected it, when BCM stopped being invite only... In fact, I invited ever only one person, and I encouraged others to check #otc web of trust to see if a person was to be invited...)


The reason is simply: It is the ONLY option available on my country.

Here there are no dwolla, no LR, no Pecunix, no Webmoney... It is ONLY paypal. (well, we have Western Union too, but they charge 25% O.o)

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June 06, 2011, 10:53:28 PM
 #17

I'd like to apologize to anyone who was 'burnt' by the recent events.  Especially to older members who may have struggled to get an invitation.  Open registration was a bad mistake.

I've told some inquiries BMBTC/PPUSD will be re-listed once all trades are confirmed and scammers are purged.  This may be true.  If PayPal does not take the proper side on many of these cases I am officially done with them.

Bitcoin will flourish with or without PayPal.



too bad u invited b4rrydoyle..that piece of crap scammed me
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June 06, 2011, 11:05:34 PM
 #18

FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds

Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.

Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.


Where is that in their TOS?  It may exist, but I've never seen it.  Have a link handy?

A closed network is much easier to manage.  I can eventually root out the scammers or whoever is inviting them.  Otherwise they just keep making new accounts.

When it's all said and done I may re-list it, but I will rewrite the email contracts and make it VERY clear about the risk involved AND that BCM can not be liable for any loss.

I dug through the paypal tos and other documentation when I started trading at bitcoinmarket.com wanting to know just what my liability would be for funds i received via paypal.  Closest thing I found is that neither the buyer protection or seller protection apply to non-tangible goods.  I confirmed this an hour ago with a lengthy conversation with a paypal 'dispute specialist' on the phone.  He confirmed that unless there is a physical item actually shipped to an address, there is no protection for either party.

*Furthermore* he confirmed that if the sending party claims that the transaction was not authorized (as opposed to goods not received, etc), that is an immediate trigger to close the case and resolve automatically in favor of the sender, reversing the transaction.  I specifically asked if there was any avenue for appeal, arbitration, or anything else after that happened and the answer was "no, once a case is decided that is completely final".

I asked him what I as a seller could do to protect myself from liability from actual unauthorized transactions or dishonest buyers and the only suggestion he had was to deal only with verified paypal members.

Paypal is so "easy" that I really wish it was a viable option.  No matter which party they choose to protect by default there will always be people who abuse it.

My personal suggestion for how to proceed, if at all, with paypal in bitcoin trading circles is some combination of:

-feedback on traders, to establish reliability (and make it obvious, not something you have to dig to see)
-new members start with a low limit on trade size
-some currency balance be held as 'collateral' for trades of considerable value to discourage theft.
-some way for both parties to the transaction to decline to proceed if the other has questionable reputation

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June 06, 2011, 11:11:18 PM
 #19

Hi.

I've been scammed to by a French guy, lucky me that I had withdraw all my money before the scammer claim it, so I'm in red now haha.

Quote
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.

I use PayPal and got really unhappy with how BCM went (and I expected it, when BCM stopped being invite only... In fact, I invited ever only one person, and I encouraged others to check #otc web of trust to see if a person was to be invited...)


The reason is simply: It is the ONLY option available on my country.

Here there are no dwolla, no LR, no Pecunix, no Webmoney... It is ONLY paypal. (well, we have Western Union too, but they charge 25% O.o)

+1

The only reason that I use PAYPAL is because theres no other way in my country. In most South America countries PAYPAL is used for Ebay buying, and credit cards are not very abundant. People sometime have fear to link their CC to PAYPAL, so they buy credit to a trader. Thats how I get the money in my local currency. I can make that trade because PAYPAL is POPULAR, Ebay is POPULAR, and the demand of PAYPAL credit is hight.

I'm sure that we can think a way to make scamming harder to be accomplish.



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June 06, 2011, 11:20:09 PM
 #20



I dug through the paypal tos and other documentation when I started trading at bitcoinmarket.com wanting to know just what my liability would be for funds i received via paypal.  Closest thing I found is that neither the buyer protection or seller protection apply to non-tangible goods.  I confirmed this an hour ago with a lengthy conversation with a paypal 'dispute specialist' on the phone.  He confirmed that unless there is a physical item actually shipped to an address, there is no protection for either party.

*Furthermore* he confirmed that if the sending party claims that the transaction was not authorized (as opposed to goods not received, etc), that is an immediate trigger to close the case and resolve automatically in favor of the sender, reversing the transaction.  I specifically asked if there was any avenue for appeal, arbitration, or anything else after that happened and the answer was "no, once a case is decided that is completely final".

I asked him what I as a seller could do to protect myself from liability from actual unauthorized transactions or dishonest buyers and the only suggestion he had was to deal only with verified paypal members.

Paypal is so "easy" that I really wish it was a viable option.  No matter which party they choose to protect by default there will always be people who abuse it.

My personal suggestion for how to proceed, if at all, with paypal in bitcoin trading circles is some combination of:

-feedback on traders, to establish reliability (and make it obvious, not something you have to dig to see)
-new members start with a low limit on trade size
-some currency balance be held as 'collateral' for trades of considerable value to discourage theft.
-some way for both parties to the transaction to decline to proceed if the other has questionable reputation



I like the ease of use of PayPal as well, and I was lucky not to be scammed during this past weekend's run up since I was doing a large number of considerably sized transactions (30+ BTC).

You have some good suggestions and these may help somewhat mitigate the PP dilemma as well:

- Holding the BTC in escrow for a fixed period of time for new users
- An overhaul to the rating system to take into consideration successful large exchanges

If not, I'll be looking forward to the Dwolla support.
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