So Tell Me Again How Selling Accounts Prevents Scams

[Deluxee]

TL;DR: bitcoinblackfriday.info -- brought to you by bought accounts & signature campaigns.

thriftshopping bought the account GotaPauj on November 02, 2015 and therefore while smith coins, prodigy8, lorylore, jt byte and Prasmatic were alt accounts of GotaPauj they're no longer alts when the scam happened (or at least there's no proofs of that).

[1713941456]

1713941456

[hilariousandco]

Why create a new account just to post this? Whether account sales are allowed or not it wouldn't have prevented this so it's irrelevant (though I'm sure even more scams would be commited by bought accounts if people were blind/ignorant to the fact that sales go on). Not sure what signature campaigns have to do with this particular case either? I'm also not sure why thriftshopping didn't just try pull the scam off with his account as it was the same rank as the one he bought.

[Deluxee]

>Why create a new account just to post this?
Because fear of retaliation.

>Whether account sales are allowed or not it wouldn't have prevented this so it's irrelevant.
Source?

>I'm sure even more scams would be commited by bought accounts if people were blind/ignorant to the fact that sales go on
So account sales are allowed so that thermos can play nanny to clueless noobs?
Should we also allow trolling, to teach noobs about trolls? And spamming, so that they'd learn that worthless posts exist?

> Not sure what signature campaigns have to do with this particular case either?
Bitcoinblackfriday.info used a signature campaign to advertise its website.

[snipie]

Search in the forums for cryptofate, asmtime, cryptex and tell me if the owners of theses projects had a bought accounts or not, if you are too lazy to search then i will tell you that when they scammed many users they were newbies with 28 activity each.
To say that scammers gonna scam whether they are newbies or legendary with their own or bought account.

[krunox123]

No one can stop a scammer from committing a fraud with a bought account.
It cannot be avoided. Unless the seller did not sell his/her account to the scammer.

[hilariousandco]

>Why create a new account just to post this?
Because fear of retaliation.

Retaliation? How can people retailate against this?

>Whether account sales are allowed or not it wouldn't have prevented this so it's irrelevant.
Source?

Use your brain. Banning account sales does not mean nobody will ever sell or buy accounts. Banning them will just push them further underground.

>I'm sure even more scams would be commited by bought accounts if people were blind/ignorant to the fact that sales go on
So account sales are allowed so that thermos can play nanny to clueless noobs?
Should we also allow trolling, to teach noobs about trolls? And spamming, so that they'd learn that worthless posts exist?

No, they're allowed because banning them wouldn't do anything at all.

> Not sure what signature campaigns have to do with this particular case either?
Bitcoinblackfriday.info used a signature campaign to advertise its website.

Your point being? They also advertised on this site. They also created threads. Ban forum advertisements and creating threads?

[Deluxee]

tell me if the owners of theses projects had a bought accounts or not.

If people die without getting shot, why make murder illegal? Is that your question?

>No one can stop a scammer from committing a fraud with a bought account.
No one is saying that people can't scam without buying an account. A bought account simply makes it easier.

[hilariousandco]

tell me if the owners of theses projects had a bought accounts or not.

If people die without getting shot, why make murder illegal? Is that your question?

>No one can stop a scammer from committing a fraud with a bought account.
No one is saying that people can't scam without buying an account. A bought account simply makes it easier.

It might make it easier or quicker for some, but how many bought accounts actually go on to scam? It's rare that they do, comapred to the 99% of people who just buy them to use for signature campaigns. You know as well as I do that banning account sales wouldn't do anything at all to stop people scamming from them so I don't know why you (and others) insist on banging your head agaisnt a brick wall. We don't even moderate scams here either so why aren't you complaining about that? There's more importamt things to be worrying and protesting about on here than whether we futilely ban account sales or not.

[Deluxee]

>Why create a new account just to post this?
Because fear of retaliation.

Retaliation? How can people retailate against this?

Neg trust ratings, selective moderation leading to ban (by bitcointalk forum mods selling accounts/participating in sig campaigns.
Use your brain.

>Whether account sales are allowed or not it wouldn't have prevented this so it's irrelevant.
Source?

Use your brain. Banning account sales does not mean nobody will ever sell or buy accounts. Banning them will just push them further underground.

True. Banning murder drives murderers underground. Nevertheless, dollars to doughnuts that fewer murders, vs. shit being 100% legal.
Bonus: when an underground murderer is discovered, he could be punished. If murder legal, not so much.

>I'm sure even more scams would be commited by bought accounts if people were blind/ignorant to the fact that sales go on
So account sales are allowed so that thermos can play nanny to clueless noobs?
Should we also allow trolling, to teach noobs about trolls? And spamming, so that they'd learn that worthless posts exist?

No, they're allowed because banning them wouldn't do anything at all.

Explain how banning trolling/spam is any different?

> Not sure what signature campaigns have to do with this particular case either?
Bitcoinblackfriday.info used a signature campaign to advertise its website.

Your point being? They also advertised on this site. They also created threads. Ban forum advertisements and creating threads?

My point being the answer to your question, duh. Or, as you so eloquently phrased it, "Use your brain."

P.S. I understand the sheer idiocy of arguing this point with a forum mod, likely engaged in account sales, definitely wearing a paid signature.
Like trying to convince the guy who just stole your wallet that he's a thief -- a fool's errand.

[hilariousandco]

Neg trust ratings, selective moderation leading to ban (by bitcointalk forum mods selling accounts/participating in sig campaigns.
Use your brain.

Yes, because people leave negative feedback on others for complaining about moderation or forum policy. I'll tell you why people create new accounts to post this stuff, because people either don't have the balls to post from the main account, don't want to look stupid or just troll asking the same questions that have been asked over and over again. Probably all three in your case. Keep banging your head against that wall.

[Deluxee]

Neg trust ratings, selective moderation leading to ban (by bitcointalk forum mods selling accounts/participating in sig campaigns.
Use your brain.

Yes, because people leave negative feedback on others for complaining about moderation or forum policy. I'll tell you why people create new accounts to post this stuff, because people either don't have the balls to post from the main account, don't want to look stupid or just troll asking the same questions that have been asked over and over again. Probably all three in your case. Keep banging your head against that wall.

>don't have the balls to post from the main account
When discussing forum policy requires balls, something is definitely wrong

>Keep banging your head against that wall
See postscript in my previous post.

[Blazed]

The only way to curb account sales is to get rid off signature campaigns. The issue with that is the forum wants all of those posters here so it will never happen. This forum would lose a huge amount of traffic if the campaigns stopped.

[Quickseller]

How exactly would effectively banning the sale of accounts have stopped the bitcoinblackfriday.info scam? The account had zero prior trade history and zero trust. I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

To answer your question, allowing the sale of accounts gives value to accounts. If someone wants to scam with a purchased account then they will first need to invest some amount of money to buy the account. Once it is determined that the account has attempted (successfully or not) a scam, that account will most likely receive negative trust and the value of the initial investment will be zero (or close to it). In order to roi by scamming with a purchased account, a scammer will need to scam an amount more then what they paid for the account. It is also not uncommon for scams to outright fail (I have been the cause of a number of scams failing ), so the potential scammer who buys an account with the intent of scamming will actually lose money.

Why the banning of the sale of accounts actually helps scammers:
As mentioned previously mentioned, if account sales are banned then account selling will still take place, but underground. This will cause the price of accounts to fall, likely significantly. This means that a scammer who wants to buy an account in order to scam with it will need to invest less money to attempt to pull off their scam, and risk less money to attempt their scam. As a result more of these scams will have a positive roi.

So mr anon (don't act like I don't know who you are btw), do you want to make it easier for scammers to make money via scamming?

[hilariousandco]

Neg trust ratings, selective moderation leading to ban (by bitcointalk forum mods selling accounts/participating in sig campaigns.
Use your brain.

Yes, because people leave negative feedback on others for complaining about moderation or forum policy. I'll tell you why people create new accounts to post this stuff, because people either don't have the balls to post from the main account, don't want to look stupid or just troll asking the same questions that have been asked over and over again. Probably all three in your case. Keep banging your head against that wall.

>don't have the balls to post from the main account
When discussing forum policy requires balls, something is definitely wrong

It doesn't require balls, but that seems to be your excuse. It would be like me using an alt to respond to this thread just so I didn't have to deal with the same crap that inevitably comes from brand new accounts created to talk forum policy. I have more respect and patience for those that don't feel the need to cowardly create a new account to speak their mind. Absolutely nothing would have happened to your main account had you posted this from it but you probably just want a throwaway so you can post crap without it reflceting badly on your main account.

>Keep banging your head against that wall
See postscript in my previous post.

And see my post above. I also understand the sheer idiocy of arguing this point with a forum newb created soley to post baseless accusations, irrelevancy, and ad hominems, but that's why you created a new account.

The only way to curb account sales is to get rid off signature campaigns. The issue with that is the forum wants all of those posters here so it will never happen. This forum would lose a huge amount of traffic if the campaigns stopped.

Account sales would not stop if signature campaigns went. Sure, accounts are currently farmed here largely because of signature campaigns but if campaigns were banned then all that would happen would be a hell of a lot of high-ranked dirt cheap accounts flood the market when people ditch this forum as they realise they no longer need their account(s). Now, if you're making the argument that account sales encourage scams then people would sure as hell mostly buy them to scam once that's the only thing they have worth for.

[Deluxee]

@Quickseller:
>I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

Right. The account was bought not because it made scamming easier, but to help bitcoin ecosystem. Because people trust a noob account as much as any other account. Brother probably bought the account to participate in a signature campaign

>Once it is determined that the account has attempted (successfully or not) a scam, that account will most likely receive negative trust and the value of the initial investment will be zero (or close to it).

So what you're telling me is GotaPauj account is worthless now? Dang, that'll teach him!

>So mr anon (don't act like I don't know who you are btw)

Sharp as a pickle! I also know who you are - an account dealer caught lying through your teeth, also wearing a paid sig. To reiterate:

I understand the sheer idiocy of arguing this point with a forum mod account dealer, likely definetly engaged in account sales, definitely wearing a paid signature.
Like trying to convince the guy who just stole your wallet that he's a thief -- a fool's errand.

@hilariousandco: See boldface above.

[Blazed]

Well obviously hilarious is biased towards campaigns as he runs a few. Simple fact is the forum would be better without them and open account sales. I agree you can not stop sales, but it would make it harder. Also scams like what happened can not be stopped because the people who fall for them would scammed one way or another. This thread is pointless like the other 50 threads before it. The forum will not stop sales or signature campaigns.

[Quickseller]

@Quickseller:
>I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

Right. The account was bought not because it made scamming easier, but to help bitcoin ecosystem. Because people trust a noob account as much as any other account. Brother probably bought the account to participate in a signature campaign

He probably bought the account to get around posting restrictions, and limits to the number of PM's he can send every hour. He could have easily created an account two months ago, making a small number of posts to get around these restrictions.

>Once it is determined that the account has attempted (successfully or not) a scam, that account will most likely receive negative trust and the value of the initial investment will be zero (or close to it).

So what you're telling me is GotaPauj account is worthless now? Dang, that'll teach him!

In this case it does not matter because he was successful. However there is no guarantee that his scam was successful, and if it was not successful then he would be out the money that he spent buying it.

[Pattart]

@Quickseller:
>I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

Right. The account was bought not because it made scamming easier, but to help bitcoin ecosystem. Because people trust a noob account as much as any other account. Brother probably bought the account to participate in a signature campaign

He probably bought the account to get around posting restrictions, and limits to the number of PM's he can send every hour. He could have easily created an account two months ago, making a small number of posts to get around these restrictions.

The account that he bought GotaPauj with was already a full member account, so it didn't have the posting restrictions.

OP, account sales do not prevent scams. However by allowing account sales on this forum, it will be easier to catch scammers. If account sales were not allowed here, then those sales would still occur, just not on this forum. By having the sales on this forum, people can check the threads and figure out what other accounts are owned by that seller. The admins can check the ip addresses of the scammer and check the pms to determine who bought what account. By facilitating the sales here, all of the data regarding the account sale which can be used later in catching scammers is all in one place where the admins can also help catch the scammers.

[Deluxee]

@Quickseller:
>I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

Right. The account was bought not because it made scamming easier, but to help bitcoin ecosystem. Because people trust a noob account as much as any other account. Brother probably bought the account to participate in a signature campaign

He probably bought the account to get around posting restrictions, and limits to the number of PM's he can send every hour. He could have easily created an account two months ago, making a small number of posts to get around these restrictions.

Absolutely. Also, terrorists don't have to use Kalashnikovs to kill people. They could have amade some shitty nitric explosives, or simply smothered people to death with pillows.
Doesn't change the fact that both a bought account & a sig campaign were instrumental in this scam.

@Blazed: Not sure. What do you feel is the alternative? Simply ignore? Pretend that a bunch of petty profiteers didn't turn this place into a joke? Accept that the Bitcoin userbase is a bunch of petty scammers, as browsing bitcointalk suggests?

@Pattart: Thanks for contributing. Could you give me a rough estimate re. percentage of scammed BTC returned to the victims, via the methods you've outlined?

[Quickseller]

He also advertised on the forum, and the forum ad most likely got many more views then the signature campaign posts did.

Like I said, the fact that he was using an obviously purchased account played zero in the scam being successful. He directed people to a website that directed people to other fake websites that appeared to be trustworthy. I don't think anyone investigated how trustworthy the person running it was.