SPV Mining and how to slow it down ... if you care to ...

[cypherdoc]

... and for those less scrupulous than me, they might even consider sending bad/corrupt headers to the spv 'dead pool miners' since they aren't providing any mining results, that's not gonna affect their "shares" ... and see what havoc you can cause to their spv mining process
They may just have to resort to doing fully verified mining like everyone else

what good would this do?  from what i hear they validate that the headers hash to the correct target to be a valid solution, no?

[1714680017]

1714680017

[1714680017]

1714680017

[1714680017]

1714680017

[-ck]

In this case, where they know the previous block is valid b/c they mined it, why wouldn't they simply mine the next with tx's in it?  the reason these spv miners do what they do is b/c they don't want to waste time validating another pools just received block, which is not the case in this situation since it's their own.

It is both as can be seen when 2 blocks back to back come from an SPV pool and the 2nd block has zero txns. The reason is they've not gone to the effort to make the bitcoind validation process fast in their own nodes and they don't want to wait for bitcoind to validate the block (it takes time) before starting on their next block. For solo.ckpool.org and kano.is we run a customised bitcoind which speeds up the validation process dramatically, making this delay negligible.

[kano]

... and for those less scrupulous than me, they might even consider sending bad/corrupt headers to the spv 'dead pool miners' since they aren't providing any mining results, that's not gonna affect their "shares" ... and see what havoc you can cause to their spv mining process
They may just have to resort to doing fully verified mining like everyone else

what good would this do?  from what i hear they validate that the headers hash to the correct target to be a valid solution, no?

They wouldn't be able to use the header ...
They'd have to get it from somewhere else, which no doubt they do have a web of 'dead pool miners' connecting to pools all over the planet ... ... ...
but it would be one less source for them.

Also note the obvious that you are assuming they aren't being stupid in their testing of the header.

They did clearly show they were morons before when they weren't even checking the block header version number ... even a day after knowing all blocks should be v3 and to ignore v2, they still mined on a v2 fork for the 2nd time ...

[cypherdoc]

... and for those less scrupulous than me, they might even consider sending bad/corrupt headers to the spv 'dead pool miners' since they aren't providing any mining results, that's not gonna affect their "shares" ... and see what havoc you can cause to their spv mining process
They may just have to resort to doing fully verified mining like everyone else

what good would this do?  from what i hear they validate that the headers hash to the correct target to be a valid solution, no?

They wouldn't be able to use the header ...
They'd have to get it from somewhere else, which no doubt they do have a web of 'dead pool miners' connecting to pools all over the planet ... ... ...
but it would be one less source for them.

Also note the obvious that you are assuming they aren't being stupid in their testing of the header.

They did clearly show they were morons before when they weren't even checking the block header version number ... even a day after knowing all blocks should be v3 and to ignore v2, they still mined on a v2 fork for the 2nd time ...

do headers obtained from stratum include a block version #?

i was told that they at least check that the header contains the correct solution.  thus, simply sending them a random malicious header that doesn't have any POW behind it shouldn't work.

[cypherdoc]

In this case, where they know the previous block is valid b/c they mined it, why wouldn't they simply mine the next with tx's in it?  the reason these spv miners do what they do is b/c they don't want to waste time validating another pools just received block, which is not the case in this situation since it's their own.

It is both as can be seen when 2 blocks back to back come from an SPV pool and the 2nd block has zero txns. The reason is they've not gone to the effort to make the bitcoind validation process fast in their own nodes and they don't want to wait for bitcoind to validate the block (it takes time) before starting on their next block. For solo.ckpool.org and kano.is we run a customised bitcoind which speeds up the validation process dramatically, making this delay negligible.

but again, in the Antpool example given of 2 of their own blocks found sequentially with the 2nd being an spv 0-1tx block, they already know the 1st block is valid.  afterall, they produced it.  why bother then with spv mining the 2nd block instead of just stuffing the 2nd block straightaway with tx's so as to capture fees too?

also, the root emphasis as to why they spv mine is to avoid constructing the getblocktemplate during stress conditions of full or nearly full blocks and bloated mempools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=H-ErmmDQRFs#t=4330

and here:

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-155#post-5252

[kano]

... and for those less scrupulous than me, they might even consider sending bad/corrupt headers to the spv 'dead pool miners' since they aren't providing any mining results, that's not gonna affect their "shares" ... and see what havoc you can cause to their spv mining process
They may just have to resort to doing fully verified mining like everyone else

what good would this do?  from what i hear they validate that the headers hash to the correct target to be a valid solution, no?

They wouldn't be able to use the header ...
They'd have to get it from somewhere else, which no doubt they do have a web of 'dead pool miners' connecting to pools all over the planet ... ... ...
but it would be one less source for them.

Also note the obvious that you are assuming they aren't being stupid in their testing of the header.

They did clearly show they were morons before when they weren't even checking the block header version number ... even a day after knowing all blocks should be v3 and to ignore v2, they still mined on a v2 fork for the 2nd time ...

do headers obtained from stratum include a block version #?
...

Logically, stratum has to be able to construct a block header after modifying the sig in the coinbase transaction, so the miner must be able to generate a full block header to hash.

But the answer is yes.

...
i was told that they at least check that the header contains the correct solution.  thus, simply sending them a random malicious header that doesn't have any POW behind it shouldn't work.

They obviously didn't check all of the header: they didn't do a simple single: does v = v3? check even a day after the v2/v3 fork.

How much of it do they check? Who knows. But they didn't check one of the simplest checks.

[sloopy]

It can still be taken back to the basics of good versus evil as well.

If every pool did what those pools are doing the network would be a wasteland.

They are 60% of the network and some people are asking to continue the debate the finer logic of the acts themselves. Do not get me wrong, I can appreciate a good debate on the topic, but when you strike the core cypherdoc ask yourself that same simple question:

If every pool mined zero transaction blocks along with SPV mining how long would bitcoin last?

[kano]

threat
θrɛt/
noun
noun: threat; plural noun: threats

    1.
    a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.

lie
[lahy]

noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

@macbook-air
Do you mean that you'll intentionally not build on blocks from Kano.is? I think you need to clarify what you mean by blacklist.

We will not build on his blocks until our local bitcoind got received and verified them in full. This guy leaked our IP addresses to the public, I pm him kindly and begged him to remove them but he refused. If we ever got DDoSed due to his post, we have no choices but point our domains to his pool.

That is a threat and a lie

...
We did not and will not DDoS anyone. And what I said earlier was that we HAVE TO redirect someone else’s attack, including those potential ones from Kano, to Kano’s pool IF that attack is a result of the provoked post of him. Because the attack is caused, directly or indirectly, by him.

... again that is a threat and a lie

[cypherdoc]

... and for those less scrupulous than me, they might even consider sending bad/corrupt headers to the spv 'dead pool miners' since they aren't providing any mining results, that's not gonna affect their "shares" ... and see what havoc you can cause to their spv mining process
They may just have to resort to doing fully verified mining like everyone else

what good would this do?  from what i hear they validate that the headers hash to the correct target to be a valid solution, no?

They wouldn't be able to use the header ...
They'd have to get it from somewhere else, which no doubt they do have a web of 'dead pool miners' connecting to pools all over the planet ... ... ...
but it would be one less source for them.

Also note the obvious that you are assuming they aren't being stupid in their testing of the header.

They did clearly show they were morons before when they weren't even checking the block header version number ... even a day after knowing all blocks should be v3 and to ignore v2, they still mined on a v2 fork for the 2nd time ...

do headers obtained from stratum include a block version #?
...

Logically, stratum has to be able to construct a block header after modifying the sig in the coinbase transaction, so the miner must be able to generate a full block header to hash.

But the answer is yes.

...
i was told that they at least check that the header contains the correct solution.  thus, simply sending them a random malicious header that doesn't have any POW behind it shouldn't work.

They obviously didn't check all of the header: they didn't do a simple single: does v = v3? check even a day after the v2/v3 fork.

How much of it do they check? Who knows. But they didn't check one of the simplest checks.

here's an interesting convo i had with Lightsword on this a week ago.  note the IRC chat with Wang Chun (btw, is he macbook-air?):

apparently all the Chinese miners had upgraded to v3 except for one single full node in Antminer's pool of nodes.  when BTCNugget released their v2 block (they were one of the 5% of miners who hadn't done the upgrade), this one non-upgraded node relayed it to f2pool via their stratum listening dead miner.  then f2pool proceeded to mine 4 spv blocks on top of it along with 1 by Antpool.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uugeu/bip65_is_66_on_the_way_to_first_activation/cxkqv0l?context=3

[cypherdoc]

It can still be taken back to the basics of good versus evil as well.

If every pool did what those pools are doing the network would be a wasteland.

They are 60% of the network and some people are asking to continue the debate the finer logic of the acts themselves. Do not get me wrong, I can appreciate a good debate on the topic, but when you strike the core cypherdoc ask yourself that same simple question:

If every pool mined zero transaction blocks along with SPV mining how long would bitcoin last?

no, i get it. i don't think it's right either.  but we need to understand why they're doing this from a technical level.

imo, bigger blocks would solve the problem by emptying out the mempools of mining full nodes and decentralizing mining outside of China.  yes, spv mining by the Chinese might get temporarily worse in the short term as they struggle to maintain their hashing chokehold on Bitcoin but eventually the ROW (rest of world) will catch up, in terms of mining share.  on the positive side, the Chinese miner BTC holdings should skyrocket and there are many positive things they could do to compensate.

[barrysty1e]

seems our little buddy luke-jr isnt such a good christian..

block 388365 - f2pool (and to be fair f2pool actually processed tx for a change)
block 388366 - eligius (1 tx - 25btc)

have at it guys; red-handed..

[jonnybravo0311]

Eligius doesn't SPV mine... yes, they produce empty blocks on that pool, but it is a byproduct of the way the pool distributes work.

[loshia]

The solution is quite simple
Everybody has own good reason to mine in CHINESE pools.
So just fuck them and stop mining there. If you do believe they are destroying Bitcoin there is no such Good reason to justify YOUR OWN will to mine there.
But unfortunately it is not the case...
....
Ps: if any one speaks CHINESE please translate it

[kano]

Eligius doesn't SPV mine... yes, they produce empty blocks on that pool, but it is a byproduct of the way the pool distributes work.

Well, yes you could word it that way.

or in detail:

What eligius does is they send out empty block work every block change.
Then soon after, they send out block work with transactions.
During this gap, empty blocks can of course be generated.
The length of the gap can be determined by seeing how often, over a long period of time, they produce empty blocks.

Their excuse is that it is faster than sending out block work with transactions the first time.
Of course it is faster, but faster than what else?
eligius is SLOWER than my pool https://kano.is that always sends out block work with transactions.

They are blaming bitcoin for their poor pool software performance and thus producing empty blocks to compensate for their skill level.
The problem is their pool software performance.
Rather than resolve that, they instead blame bitcoin and produce empty blocks.

[tl121]

The solution is quite simple
Everybody has own good reason to mine in CHINESE pools.
So just fuck them and stop mining there. If you do believe they are destroying Bitcoin there is no such Good reason to justify YOUR OWN will to mine there.
But unfortunately it is not the case...
....
Ps: if any one speaks CHINESE please translate it

I'm curious how many people and hash power outside of China mine in Chinese pools.  Even more curious as to the reasons why they do this.  (If a majority of mining were in Antarctica I would be asking a different question.)

[Prelude]

The solution is quite simple
Everybody has own good reason to mine in CHINESE pools.
So just fuck them and stop mining there. If you do believe they are destroying Bitcoin there is no such Good reason to justify YOUR OWN will to mine there.
But unfortunately it is not the case...
....
Ps: if any one speaks CHINESE please translate it

I'm curious how many people and hash power outside of China mine in Chinese pools.  Even more curious as to the reasons why they do this.  (If a majority of mining were in Antarctica I would be asking a different question.)

A surprising amount. I've even seen quite a few respected members on bitcointalk say they're mining on f2pool/antpool. Pretty sad when you've got great alternatives like this pool.

[loshia]

The solution is quite simple
Everybody has own good reason to mine in CHINESE pools.
So just fuck them and stop mining there. If you do believe they are destroying Bitcoin there is no such Good reason to justify YOUR OWN will to mine there.
But unfortunately it is not the case...
....
Ps: if any one speaks CHINESE please translate it

I'm curious how many people and hash power outside of China mine in Chinese pools.  Even more curious as to the reasons why they do this.  (If a majority of mining were in Antarctica I would be asking a different question.)

A surprising amount. I've even seen quite a few respected members on bitcointalk say they're mining on f2pool/antpool. Pretty sad when you've got great alternatives like this pool.

I will add that it is pretty said that so called "respected members on bitcointalk" do use Chinese pools....

[o_solo_miner]

Well, the discussion goes to SPV Mining.
F2Pool is improving, as I can see it, so it is fair to say the message come through and they try their best.
AntPool still produce 0 Blocks. They do nothing, just counting their income.

[kano]

Well F2Pool block changes have sped up again since the v4 change completed ...

[loshia]

Well, the discussion goes to SPV Mining.
F2Pool is improving, as I can see it, so it is fair to say the message come through and they try their best.
AntPool still produce 0 Blocks. They do nothing, just counting their income.

Sure and the discussion goes how to slow it down remember?

At the end Chinese brothers will do whatever they want and how they want it. It is their style of doing business in general. That is a statment  from my expirience with them in all fields unrelated to BTC.
1. Stop to mine there immediately!!!
2. Stop to mine there immediately!!!
3. For fighters who want to stop them even loosing some money.
 a:) Rent and point Petahashes to their PPS pools(via patched proxy ) and do block withold. Be constant and they will feel the pain